D. Toews vs Q. Hughes

[Phrasing]

Ya and that's a valid point to make but that doesn't therefore mean Hughes > Toews just because Vancouver sucks.

And btw I'm obviously biased as an Avs fan so I think Toews is better but I think they are very comparable players. That's why I made the poll. I've just yet to see any Van fans make a legitimate argument for Hughes outside of "his team is worse".

I never said one is better than the other-- but simply looking at this year's small sample size and concluding Toews is better at everything as multiple Avs fans have indicated is just shortsighted. Canucks fans heard this relentlessly over the last two years whenever Girard was brought up against Hughes, and now the shift has been made to Toews. What has Hughes done to be such a reoccurring topic for Avs fans?

 

[Regal]

And yet the majority of his points come off the powerplay.

Because Canuck forwards have overall mostly been trash at 5v5 all season. It doesn’t matter how good you are offensively as a defenseman if you’re not getting support from forwards.

The Canucks have scored at a rate of 2.24 G/60 at 5v5 with Hughes on the ice, with the team shooting a combined 7.1%. The Avs meanwhile have scored at a rate of 3.89 G/60 at 5v5 with Toews on the ice, with the team shooting a combined 11.3%. That’s an insane difference, and it’s clear that it’s not due to the players in question.

Both teams score more with the players in question on the ice, but the Avs improve from 3.34 G/60 without Toews, while the Canucks improve from 1.50 G/60 without Hughes. Meanwhile, among all 137 defenseman with at least 500 5v5 minutes, Toews is 5th in G/60 and 9th in on-ice shooting percentage. Hughes is 91st in G/60 and 100th in on-ice shooting percentage.

If we look at their individual numbers, Toews is scoring at 1.62 P/60 at 5v5 gets a point on 41.7% of the Avs goals while he’s on the ice, while Hughes is scoring at 0.85 P/60, and gets a point on 37.9% of the goals while he’s on the ice. While this could theoretically make it seem like Toews is more responsible for the goals scored while on the ice, we can also see that their secondary assists are wildly different. Toews is averaging 0.86 secondary assists per 60, while Hughes is averaging 0.15. This means that their primary points are actually very similar, despite the disparity in on-ice goals for (0.75 for Toews, 0.69 for Hughes). That means Hughes is getting a primary point on 30.8% of the goals he’s been on the ice for 5v5, while Toews has been getting a primary point on 19.3% of the goals he’s been on the ice for. This is typically a sign of who is driving the offense.

That secondary assist rate for Toews is second in the league among defensemen with at least 500 5v5 minutes, while Hughes is all the way down at 121 out of 137. Considering Hughes scored at a rate 0.56 secondary assists his first two years in the league, had a point on 43.8% of the goals he was on the ice for, and is the primary puck mover in transition for the Canucks, it’s clear that his low secondary assists are an anomaly. Meanwhile, over those same two seasons, Toews had a 0.55 secondary assist per 60 rate and a point on 38.8% of the goals he was on the ice for, so it looks like his high secondary assists are also an anomaly.

Hughes has scored at a similar primary scoring rate this year, on a much worse offense, while clearly having an outlier season in terms of secondary assists, and improves his team’s offense to a greater degree. It really shouldn’t need to be argued, since it’s obvious, but Hughes is most certainly the better 5v5 offensive player.

 

[Regal]

So to sum up this thread:

Toews: Actual stats, actual play and actual advanced stats show he’s clearly the better player

Hughes: IF he played on a better team, IF he developed more he might be better one day.

Yup, we wouldn’t want to bring context into any discussion at all

 

[triggrman]

If I had to pick one of the 2, I'd take Hughes, but I like both.

I have no bias towards either team.

 

[John Johnson]

You say this as if Toews has been around for ages and is just elite now. What if I told you he and Hughes both played their first game in the same season. Do you consider Hughes a top 10 defenseman in the league? If you do, and I think it could be argued, then you're doing so based on only 2 or so seasons.

A team with 2 of the top 3 players in the world is the Oilers not the Avs.

The Girad stuff is nonsense. I don't know who gave you that impression but the overwhelming majority of Avs fans would not take him over Hughes.

You just seem to be making things up because Avs fans want to argue for their guy in a comparison that according to the result is very worth making.

Maybe read the guy I was replying to and you'll understand my post a bit better. Also, Toews was not considered a top 10 dman in the league when he was on the Islanders, nor was he considered that last season. Just this season he apparently is now.

 

[EastVillageBlues]

Huh?

Huh "Huh" ?

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

So to sum up this thread:

Toews: Actual stats, actual play and actual advanced stats show he’s clearly the better player

Hughes: IF he played on a better team, IF he developed more he might be better one day.

The Vancouver Canucks, in a nut shell

 

[Muffin]

The Vancouver Canucks, in a nut shell

Strange bunch for sure:
Canucks fans: Pettersson, Miller and Boeser are elite players!
Also Canucks fans: Do you not see the garbage players Hughes has to play with?

 

[Buck Naked]

So to sum up this thread:

Toews: Actual stats, actual play and actual advanced stats show he’s clearly the better player

Hughes: IF he played on a better team, IF he developed more he might be better one day.

The Dahlin Conundrum.

 

[RapidKnight]

Huh "Huh" ?

OEL?

 

[Regal]

Strange bunch for sure:
Canucks fans: Pettersson, Miller and Boeser are elite players!
Also Canucks fans: Do you not see the garbage players Hughes has to play with?

Find me one post that claims Pettersson or Boeser has been elite this year?

Meanwhile, Toews apparently plays with 3 top 10 players, but somehow they also don’t affect his numbers at all.

 

[RapidKnight]

Sorry I thought we were comparing 2 defensemen. You don't think one being 22 and one being 27 is relevent?

Okay how about Toews doesn't drive the play as well, and his 33% primary assist, versus Hughes 57% kind of supports that, right? Toews has never put up point per game or higher seasons at any level of hockey, did he just figure it out at 27?

Hughes is better because he is 22. Also, Toews’ season is definitely an anomaly because of draft pedigree. Toews couldn’t possibly improve as he enters his prime, no freakin chance.

 

[Regal]

Hughes is better because he is 22. Also, Toews’ season is definitely an anomaly because of draft pedigree. Toews couldn’t possibly improve as he enters his prime, no freakin chance.

It couldn’t possibly be because on unsustainable percentages on the highest scoring team in 25 years either apparently

 

[EastVillageBlues]

OEL?

Ekman-Larsson

 

[RapidKnight]

Ekman-Larsson

I know lol. Do you really think they are in the same caliber?

 

[RapidKnight]

It couldn’t possibly be because on unsustainable percentages on the highest scoring team in 25 years either apparently

No defenseman has sustained PPG seasons in recent years. No one said he would.

Because Canuck forwards have overall mostly been trash at 5v5 all season. It doesn’t matter how good you are offensively as a defenseman if you’re not getting support from forwards.

The Canucks have scored at a rate of 2.24 G/60 at 5v5 with Hughes on the ice, with the team shooting a combined 7.1%. The Avs meanwhile have scored at a rate of 3.89 G/60 at 5v5 with Toews on the ice, with the team shooting a combined 11.3%. That’s an insane difference, and it’s clear that it’s not due to the players in question.

Both teams score more with the players in question on the ice, but the Avs improve from 3.34 G/60 without Toews, while the Canucks improve from 1.50 G/60 without Hughes. Meanwhile, among all 137 defenseman with at least 500 5v5 minutes, Toews is 5th in G/60 and 9th in on-ice shooting percentage. Hughes is 91st in G/60 and 100th in on-ice shooting percentage.

If we look at their individual numbers, Toews is scoring at 1.62 P/60 at 5v5 gets a point on 41.7% of the Avs goals while he’s on the ice, while Hughes is scoring at 0.85 P/60, and gets a point on 37.9% of the goals while he’s on the ice. While this could theoretically make it seem like Toews is more responsible for the goals scored while on the ice, we can also see that their secondary assists are wildly different. Toews is averaging 0.86 secondary assists per 60, while Hughes is averaging 0.15. This means that their primary points are actually very similar, despite the disparity in on-ice goals for (0.75 for Toews, 0.69 for Hughes). That means Hughes is getting a primary point on 30.8% of the goals he’s been on the ice for 5v5, while Toews has been getting a primary point on 19.3% of the goals he’s been on the ice for. This is typically a sign of who is driving the offense.

That secondary assist rate for Toews is second in the league among defensemen with at least 500 5v5 minutes, while Hughes is all the way down at 121 out of 137. Considering Hughes scored at a rate 0.56 secondary assists his first two years in the league, had a point on 43.8% of the goals he was on the ice for, and is the primary puck mover in transition for the Canucks, it’s clear that his low secondary assists are an anomaly. Meanwhile, over those same two seasons, Toews had a 0.55 secondary assist per 60 rate and a point on 38.8% of the goals he was on the ice for, so it looks like his high secondary assists are also an anomaly.

Hughes has scored at a similar primary scoring rate this year, on a much worse offense, while clearly having an outlier season in terms of secondary assists, and improves his team’s offense to a greater degree. It really shouldn’t need to be argued, since it’s obvious, but Hughes is most certainly the better 5v5 offensive player.

Did you not just prove Toews is better?

 

[EastVillageBlues]

I know lol. Do you really think they are in the same caliber?

No,

but it would be closer than a comparison with Hughs.

 

[Nucker101]

I never said one is better than the other-- but simply looking at this year's small sample size and concluding Toews is better at everything as multiple Avs fans have indicated is just shortsighted. Canucks fans heard this relentlessly over the last two years whenever Girard was brought up against Hughes, and now the shift has been made to Toews. What has Hughes done to be such a reoccurring topic for Avs fans?

The Makar vs Hughes Calder debates. Lot of salt still out there even though pretty much all Canuck fans admit Makar is better lol

 

[wetcoast]

Wetcoast, I played with Quinn Hughes. I've watched Quinn Hughes. Quinn Hughes is a friend of mine. Wetcoast, Devon Toews is no Quinn Hughes.

Look I understand that they are different type of players and heck Quinn will probably go on to have the better career too but right now Toews is really playing in a zone and if you just look at them individually as players this year there is little to no difference in overall value between the 2 or put another way one can't say Hughes and it's not even close...period.

For the record Toews was pretty good last year as well so this isn't an aberration or anything that we are seeing.

 

[RapidKnight]

Stats the last 2 years:

Toews w/o MacKinnon, Makar, Rantanen
58%CF
64%HDCF
74%HDGF
61%GF
62%xGF
9%SH
92%SV
47%OFFZoneFO

Hughes
51%CF
44%HDCF
42%HDGF
47%GF
47%xGF
8%SH
91%SV
61%OFFZoneFO

The answer is clear here.

 

[TheRarestDangles]

Look I understand that they are different type of players and heck Quinn will probably go on to have the better career too but right now Toews is really playing in a zone and if you just look at them individually as players this year there is little to no difference in overall value between the 2 or put another way one can't say Hughes and it's not even close...period.

For the record Toews was pretty good last year as well so this isn't an aberration or anything that we are seeing.

Your opinion is wrong.

 

[lawrence]

Quinn Hughes doesn't get to share the ice with one of the best lines in hockey. The Avalance has been a great team for a few years now. I don't think Toews will have the same effect he is having, for example, Toews currently has 32 points in 29 games, however for Toews, he's currently on a roster that goes as follows

1 player has has 52 points in 37 games, (115 point pace)
another player has 49 points in 37 games (108 point pace)
another player has 43 points in 30 games, (117 point pace)
another player that has 39 points in 30 games.... (106 point pace)
another player that has 39 points in 36 games...

which Toews the number 1 left d on this team, currently has 32 in 29 points.
If you have to dig deep, Toews is surrounded by players that is giving him a heck of an opportunity to rack up a shit load of points. This is a very similar situation to a player named Tyson Barrie, who lead the league in points for a dman last year. whatever left d gets to be this teams number 1 left d will be able to rack up a crap load of points.

Now lets look at Quinn Hughes, at their stats, before I go on, I don't get why is Quinn Hughes such a big deal to avs fans, I don't f*** in get it. Again I don't get the obsession, but if it gives you guys the illusion that you guys got Cale Makar on top of that 3 more left dmans that are better than Quinn Hughes than so be it. Anyways lets move on.

Quinn has 32 in 41 games. He's currently leading our team in plus minus at a plus 11.

He does not have the luxury of playing with the said above. Canucks does not have have 4 100 point pace players.
the best player currently on the Canucks is a player that has 40 points in 40 games who might even be traded.
After that... well, its Quinn Hughes himself with 32 in 41. My god that's just sad, now that I'm looking at it, anyways moving on, the next player we have is player with 24 points in 37 games, followed by a 23 in 38.


Now for example lets have Devon Toews and Quinn Hughes switch places. Does Devon Toews still post 32 in 29 with the Canuck situation? With Quinn being able to utilize actual skilled players will Quinn just be a 32 points in 41 game player at this point? These 2 players are in different totally different situations, one is a cup contender I think the Avs are going all in. the Canucks are still rebuilding, so the roster is very different. Toews is more mature offensively, he's 27, Quinn is 21, for f*** sakes, at least give Quinn a chance, whois been doing the best he can despite other guys not showing up (Brock, Petey)

Quinn for me.

edit: now if people just want to believe he's an iOS upgrade of Tyson Barrie, sure. Quinn Hughes is the new Tyson Barrie. Again what is the obsession with Avs fans doing these Quinn Hughes comparison

edit : like I"m not going to be fooled , by Toews stats, he's a good dman, and so is Quinn, with him being only 21 and already playing a touch situation with he Canucks with Pettersson and Brock not producing. Pettersson struggles literally sank the stats of many players on this team, and it's all on Petey for the struggles. anyways quinn for me.

 

[wetcoast]

Your opinion is wrong.

Sure okay, seriously how can I argue against that, obviously your opinion is right....right?

 

[howboutahug]

Toews right now, but as an Avs fan I'll admit Hughes is going to be an absolute rockstar on the backend much sooner than later.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Maybe read the guy I was replying to and you'll understand my post a bit better. Also, Toews was not considered a top 10 dman in the league when he was on the Islanders, nor was he considered that last season. Just this season he apparently is now.

I mean he wasn’t a top 10 dman last year, but he most certainly played at a 1D level and there were questions of whether or not that level of play was sustainable. Well he’s played even better this year. Now offensively I don’t think what he’s doing is sustainable, but defensively the dude is a rock and is proving he’s very clearly an all situation 1D.