D David Reinbacher - EHC Kloten, NL (2023, 5th, MTL)

[dave buster]

Sounds like the same copium every fan of every team who ever made a smooth brained decision on draft day.

Your "Wait a few years!!" Rhethoric will switch to "he's bad because of the head coach, he benched him once for no apparent reason!!!!" or "They graduated him a little bit too quickly so obviously now he's marked for life and will suck forever, it's on the GM!"

The best players on draft day are not necessarily those who end up with the best careers, but when you fail to pick the best player at your spot on draft day, do you even deserve him to be worth his pick or are you just relying on pure luck and divine intervention to improve your team?

It's not the first time the Habs do this, and it turned out to be a failure every single time so far. How are you expecting better results now?

You don't get richer by trading 5 quarters for a dollar everytime. Habs might as well trade all of their picks away for established talent and I bet you my house their team would be better than they've been. It's completely mind blowing how terribly awful they've been at drafting through MULTIPLE REGIMES and you still find glass half full types calling for patience.

Dude are you stupid? Its incredibly hard to accurately predict just how good most prospects will end up being. You have no idea who good Reinbacher is going to end up being

 

[Hinterland]

There's a notable lack of young talent drafted out of the NL, Matthews being the exception. So any comparisons within that league ring a little hollow.
All the best Swiss forwards played elsewhere at Reinbacher's age (Fiala, Meier, Hischer, Niederreiter, Kurashev).
And other than Josi 15 years ago, who are the good young defensemen drafted out of the NL? We're talking the likes of Siegenthaler, Moser (overrager), Berni and Geisser here.

That actually speaks for Reinbacher. It just tells you how tough it is to get a spot let alone a lot of ice time as a kid in the NL. The top Swiss prospects don't leave year after year because they wanna travel the world. They leave because they don't get an opportunity to play NL.

Now granted, Reinbacher was a little lucky. If Kloten doesn't get promoted he probably doesn't get a spot elsewhere. Still. The NL is a tough league and the opposite of a development league. Yet still, Reinbacher was a rather dominant force at a very young age. Josi might have played NL in his draft year, too but he was more of a depth guy.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

That actually speaks for Reinbacher. It just tells you how tough it is to get a spot let alone a lot of ice time as a kid in the NL. The top Swiss prospects don't leave year after year because they wanna travel the world. They leave because they don't get an opportunity to play NL.

Now granted, Reinbacher was a little lucky. If Kloten doesn't get promoted he probably doesn't get a spot elsewhere. Still. The NL is a tough league and the opposite of a development league. Yet still, Reinbacher was a rather dominant force at a very young age. Josi might have played NL in his draft year, too but he was more of a depth guy.

Not to dismiss anything Reinbacher has done, but it’s more a commentary on the fact that Swiss hockey doesn’t have the players that the big 5-6 countries have and therefore their pool of top draft prospects to pick from is naturally shallow? Hard to make comparisons when a player comes from a smaller country and/or plays their hockey in a smaller country.

 

[Hinterland]

Not to dismiss anything Reinbacher has done, but it’s more a commentary on the fact that Swiss hockey doesn’t have the players that the big 5-6 countries have and therefore their pool of top draft prospects to pick from is naturally shallow? Hard to make comparisons when a player comes from a smaller country and/or plays their hockey in a smaller country.

Yet still 90% of our top prospects leave the country ahead of their draft year at the very latest. Look at our NHLers. How many of them actually played NL in their draft year? Haven't gone through them all but Josi might be the only one. Again, those guys don't leave for fun, they leave because they don't get an NL spot. Reinbacher not only got a spot but also a large role and excelled.

 

[Snotbubbles]

Better currently you mean? Reinbacher looks far more NHL ready to my eyes. Bigger faster stronger, plays a mature system game, closes gaps quickly and safely, looks a lot more ready compared to last year's top D Jiricek and Nemec (when they were drafted). Michkov hasn't even cracked the SKA lineup yet and would be a major liability in the NHL.

If you're asking about better long term there's obviously much more to weigh out and there's no formula you can use for it.

In the future I'm talking about, 100 to 1 odds, I might put a few bucks on that but I'd like to know the evaluation criteria first.

As far as who's better currently, it's hard to say, but it's also irrelevant. When teams are drafting players, they are looking into the future, not who will help next season. If a player can help next season then it's a bonus. That being said, if the Habs think Reinbacher is a 25 minute a night, stud #1 defensemen, do you/they really want him playing 10-15 minutes a night in the NHL next season because he is "NHL ready", or do you want him going somewhere where he can play 25 minutes a night, in all situations and develop a better all-around game? It's the same scenario with Michkov, you said he hasn't cracked the SKA lineup, for development purposes, it was better for him not to and to go to Sochi and play more.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Can already smell the Flyer and Habs fans going to each others player prospect thread and trolling based off which prospect does better next season.

I really don't feel any Habs-Flyers animosity yet. Its mostly the outspoken Michkov fanboys that I would like to see get put in their place.

 

[montreal]

 

[Frank Drebin]

.... In a weaker league. While being older than Tolvanen's reference season.

How is any of that Michkov’s fault?

Not to dismiss anything Reinbacher has done, but it’s more a commentary on the fact that Swiss hockey doesn’t have the players that the big 5-6 countries have and therefore their pool of top draft prospects to pick from is naturally shallow? Hard to make comparisons when a player comes from a smaller country and/or plays their hockey in a smaller country.

How is any of that Reinbachers fault?

 

[Ezpz]

Let's not forget that in 2021 the Swiss league increased the limit of import players from 4 to 7. It is the highest number of all the leagues in Europe. There was a huge jump in quality of play starting from two years ago. The fact that Reinbacher even made his team as a 17 year old and became their most reliable dman by the end of his draft year as an 18 year old is amazing.

The absolute best Finnish and Swedish players who used to jump to the KHL all play in the Swiss league now. We can pretend the KHL is good but the truth is the Swiss league is the premier league in Europe now and you're going to see the country improve a lot from the quality of competition going up.

Texier for example wasn't able to go point per game and he's very likely to be in Columbus' top 6 next season. Andighetto went from a point per game player to a 20-30 in 50 game player after the new import rules came along.

Funny enough, the worst team in the league used most of their import slots on Quebec players.

 

[majormajor]

In the future I'm talking about, 100 to 1 odds, I might put a few bucks on that but I'd like to know the evaluation criteria first.

As far as who's better currently, it's hard to say, but it's also irrelevant. When teams are drafting players, they are looking into the future, not who will help next season. If a player can help next season then it's a bonus. That being said, if the Habs think Reinbacher is a 25 minute a night, stud #1 defensemen, do you/they really want him playing 10-15 minutes a night in the NHL next season because he is "NHL ready", or do you want him going somewhere where he can play 25 minutes a night, in all situations and develop a better all-around game? It's the same scenario with Michkov, you said he hasn't cracked the SKA lineup, for development purposes, it was better for him not to and to go to Sochi and play more.

I don't think "who is better right now" should be one of the main factors either. But you asked me how it is possible to know which prospect is better and I do think at least looking at the static picture of who they are right now, you can tell.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

How is any of that Reinbachers fault?

It’s not. I was commenting on the point about there not being many prior comparables for him.

 

[bakunin]

Let's not forget that in 2021 the Swiss league increased the limit of import players from 4 to 7. It is the highest number of all the leagues in Europe. There was a huge jump in quality of play starting from two years ago. The fact that Reinbacher even made his team as a 17 year old and became their most reliable dman by the end of his draft year as an 18 year old is amazing.

Yeah, not accurate. The limit was increased for the 22/23 season. To six, not seven. And it's absolutely not "the highest" in Europe. Sweden doesn't even have a limit, in Germany it's 9.

 

[Favster]

Sounds like the same copium every fan of every team who ever made a smooth brained decision on draft day.

Your "Wait a few years!!" Rhethoric will switch to "he's bad because of the head coach, he benched him once for no apparent reason!!!!" or "They graduated him a little bit too quickly so obviously now he's marked for life and will suck forever, it's on the GM!"

The best players on draft day are not necessarily those who end up with the best careers, but when you fail to pick the best player at your spot on draft day, do you even deserve him to be worth his pick or are you just relying on pure luck and divine intervention to improve your team?

It's not the first time the Habs do this, and it turned out to be a failure every single time so far. How are you expecting better results now?

You don't get richer by trading 5 quarters for a dollar everytime. Habs might as well trade all of their picks away for established talent and I bet you my house their team would be better than they've been. It's completely mind blowing how terribly awful they've been at drafting through MULTIPLE REGIMES and you still find glass half full types calling for patience.

The question is does Habs brass think Reinbacher was BPA? From my understanding the answer is yes and many teams behind them also shared this opinion from what we've been hearing. Sorry if I take HFboards member MoneyManny's opinion with a grain of salt lol.

Guys, this notion of BPA is kind of ridiculous, there is no consensus BPA pre-draft list. Hell we can't even agree on top 10 BPA on established NHL players.

 

[ijuka]

Dude are you stupid? Its incredibly hard to accurately predict just how good most prospects will end up being. You have no idea who good Reinbacher is going to end up being

Probably referring to stuff like Slafkovsky and Kotkaniemi, which are their latest two high picks.

 

[montreal]

The question is does Habs brass think Reinbacher was BPA? From my understanding the answer is yes and many teams behind them also shared this opinion from what we've been hearing. Sorry if I take HFboards member MoneyManny's opinion with a grain of salt lol.

Guys, this notion of BPA is kind of ridiculous, there is no consensus BPA pre-draft list. Hell we can't even agree on top 10 BPA on established NHL players.

Hughes said if he was a LD they don't know if they would have picked him or not. Something to that effect, as I don't have the exact quote.

BPA is not ridiculous at all, but consensus BPA is just silly since most people don't know shit and scouting is extremely hard outside the Crosby, McDavid's, of the world.

I think the Habs know more about Michkov then most people and that they looked at their team and said can we win in the playoffs with Caufield/Michkov in our top 3. I think they felt that answer is no and I agree with them.

I also think they looked at Lane Hutson and said we might have a star on our hands but he's going to need a big body physical D that can help cover for him. Reinbacher could be an excellent fit for Hutson one day.

So I feel this year and last the Habs went with need over BPA. I think they looked at Caufield and Hutson due to being so skilled but so small that they felt the must address this. That's not to drag Slaf or Reinbacher, that doesn't mean they aren't very good prospects or won't be very good NHLers one day. Just that more then just BPA went into the decisions imo, and time will tell if they made the right choices or not.

 

[Favster]

Hughes said if he was a LD they don't know if they would have picked him or not. Something to that effect, as I don't have the exact quote.

BPA is not ridiculous at all, but consensus BPA is just silly since most people don't know shit and scouting is extremely hard outside the Crosby, McDavid's, of the world.

I think the Habs know more about Michkov then most people and that they looked at their team and said can we win in the playoffs with Caufield/Michkov in our top 3. I think they felt that answer is no and I agree with them.

I also think they looked at Lane Hutson and said we might have a star on our hands but he's going to need a big body physical D that can help cover for him. Reinbacher could be an excellent fit for Hutson one day.

So I feel this year and last the Habs went with need over BPA. I think they looked at Caufield and Hutson due to being so skilled but so small that they felt the must address this. That's not to drag Slaf or Reinbacher, that doesn't mean they aren't very good prospects or won't be very good NHLers one day. Just that more then just BPA went into the decisions imo, and time will tell if they made the right choices or not.

The right handed argument makes sense, I mean it is possible that need was a part of the equation. But we've head that numerous teams wanted to move to Habs 5th pick to take Reinbacher.

Were they willing to move up based on need or because they considered him BPA?

I also wanted Michkov but you can see me saying I'd have no issue taking Reinbacher at 5 numerous times months prior to the draft. I think a lot of people are selling him short in this thread.


For your BPA vs consensus BPA argument, we're saying the same thing. People around here talk about BPA as if it's the same for everyone. It's nonsense.

 

[montreal]

The right handed argument makes sense, I mean it is possible that need was a part of the equation. But we've head that numerous teams wanted to move to Habs 5th pick to take Reinbacher.

Were they willing to move up based on need or because they considered him BPA?

I also wanted Michkov but you can see me saying I'd have no issue taking Reinbacher at 5 numerous times months prior to the draft. I think a lot of people are selling him short in this thread.


For your BPA vs consensus BPA argument, we're saying the same thing. People around here talk about BPA as if it's the same for everyone. It's nonsense.

I don't know about any rumors, as I didn't believe what was rumored to be offered from Nashville, but I haven't heard how legit they were. I know it was said they didn't move down with the flyers because the yotes wanted Reinbacher as well. I don't know their system, so if they were more interested in him because of his position or not.

I actually didn't want Michkov, I have said on the Habs board as someone that watched him when he was 15 because he was teammates with Alexander Gordin (there's vids on my youtube channel of them playing together) I badly wanted Will Smith but once that became impossible, I thought for sure they would pick Leonard.

 

[SlafySZN]

Probably referring to stuff like Slafkovsky and Kotkaniemi, which are their latest two high picks.

No one knows how Slafkovsky will end up being either

 

[Sam de Mtl]

I'm fine with handedness being a factor. If you pick any more LD high, you will end up pushing out a guy who could play well for your team. Your team will be better for having the better player on it, but only marginally from what the other guy would have given you. Habs are so stacked at LD that there would be a diminishing return on all investments made in that category. Other teams are aware of each team's position and would know they are dealing from a position of strength when trying to pry a LD from us. So diminishing returns on the trade front also.

As far as "compensating" for Caufield and Hutson, it remains to be seen if the strategy will work or not, but it makes sense to me as smaller athletes can thrive when they are well surrounded. Making sure we have the pieces to surround these guys early is quite important. Also, if it works out and "making other players better" is a trait of Slafkovsky and Reinbacher, we will be very happy.

 

[Nabrules]

To me he projects as a right handed Noah Hanifin, so essentially a top pair dman or at worst a number 3. The problem is Michkov projects as a Kucherov type, so you’re leaving a lot of talent and skill on the board.

 

[samsagat]

Dude are you stupid? Its incredibly hard to accurately predict just how good most prospects will end up being. You have no idea who good Reinbacher is going to end up being

Do you have doubts about Bedard?

Your assumption is good for sigma prospects, but there's sure things on most of top crops of NHL draft, exceptional (bad) years aside...

And 2023 draft was exceptionally loaded at the top. Probably kind of 2003 revisited...

Michkov have been on NHL amateur scouts radars for probably 7-8 years. Possibly more.

He was seen as an exceptional for that long and never disappointed since.

His fall at draft day is much more about Russian factor and the fact he's signed for 3 more seasons in the KHL than anything else.
And because there was maybe a little less talented players available (still very very talented), but they represented less risk.

He would've been playing NA he would've been fighting for the 1st spot.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

I thought he looked alright here. A lot of translatable skills but the other team scored a ton when he was on the ice. Goals 2 and 3 for the other team were mostly his fault as well. Maybe not the best game from him as he reminded me of Justin Barron

 

[samsagat]

It’s not. I was commenting on the point about there not being many prior comparables for him.

There was, and he was alone on his island. Even Josi didn't do as well...

Michkov has establish pts records everywhere he's been for about 5-6 years (probably more). He's an exceptional.

But Reinbacher 22 pts in 46 games in the NLA for a DY defenseman is a pt record too.

NLA is no slouch, as per CHL (Champion Hockey League, not Canadian Hockey League), a competition between the best teams of European pro hockey leagues, NLA is the third best pro league of Europe. Behind KHL and SHL.

My step mother is Swiss and let me tell you that hockey is very, very popular in that country.
Furthermore it's a rich and safe country (compared to Russia, for example), so they have the means to attract good foreign hockey players.

The level of play is very good and the game they play is a little more alike to the one practiced in NA (more physical than other European hockey leagues).

I was a little disappointed because Michkov was a rare talent.

But we all knew there was big chances that Habs brass wouldn't take him, and my 2nd choice was clearly Reinbacher.

Those kind of Swiss knife () defenseman that can play against opposing team best players, putting on his share of pts and eat major minutes, playing all the critical situations, are hard to obtain.
You get the chance to draft one, you go for it.

Plus he's big, skates well, he's a righty, efficient in his own zone (against men in a very competitive league) and doesn't back down from physical play.

You can't be more complete than that...

We're talking Pietrangelo territory, you win championship with that kind of defenseman.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

There was, and he was alone on his island. Even Josi didn't do as well...

Michkov has establish pts records everywhere he's been for about 5-6 years (probably more). He's an exceptional.

But Reinbacher 22 pts in 46 games in the NLA for a DY defenseman is a pt record too.

NLA is no slouch, as per CHL (Champion Hockey League, not Canadian Hockey League), a competition between the best teams of European pro hockey leagues, NLA is the third best pro league of Europe. Behind KHL and SHL.

My step mother is Swiss and let me tell you that hockey is very, very popular in that country.
Furthermore it's a rich and safe country (compared to Russia, for example), so they have the means to attract good foreign hockey players.

The level of play is very good and the game they play is a little more alike to the one practiced in NA (more physical than other European hockey leagues).

I was a little disappointed because Michkov was a rare talent.

But we all knew there was big chances that Habs brass wouldn't take him, and my 2nd choice was clearly Reinbacher.

Those kind of Swiss knife () defenseman that can play against opposing team best players, putting on his share of pts and eat major minutes, playing all the critical situations, are hard to obtain.
You get the chance to draft one, you go for it.

Plus he's big, skates well, he's a righty, efficient in his own zone (against men in a very competitive league) and doesn't back down from physical play.

You can't be more complete than that...

We're talking Pietrangelo territory, you win championship with that kind of defenseman.

You typed all that and didn’t address what I said. Sorry, the truth is that there aren’t many comparables. That’s not about Reinbacher. That’s the reality of draft prospects out of the NLA.

 

[samsagat]

You typed all that and didn’t address what I said. Sorry, the truth is that there aren’t many comparables. That’s not about Reinbacher. That’s the reality of draft prospects out of the NLA.

You mean NHL comparables?

Well if you want recent comparable there's JJ Moser that have made 30 pts in 48 games as a 20 yo in the NLA back in 2020-2021.

He was drafted that year (as a 3 years overager) at the end of the 2nd round (already something not common for a 3 years overager).
He made the NHL instantly after his draft, on pace for around 30 pts (projected on a 82 games schedule).

He's now a good young player for the Yotes. Probably a guy that allowed them to trade Chychrun without after thoughts...

Otherwise you have Josi in 2008... Siegenthaler in 2015, etc...