CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[KevFu]

What gets me about Rodier's tweet storm is that it's just very reachy for what either he wants to happen, or what he thinks an audience will re-tweet or click/share.

It's the whole "secret plan" stuff that is a convoluted and illogical way to act like we're not just in the status quo until something happens.

The whole thing is based on the idea that the NHL has to line up their ducks in a row to execute a sleazy maneuver to one of their own owners, who's committed millions to try and make it work in Arizona (as the NHL has for the last 15 years).

Smith just asked the NHL to allow him to pay them hundreds of millions for a team. You don't need a sleazy maneuver for Smith to buy the Coyotes. The Coyotes are valued less than an expansion team. Just broker a deal.

Why do you need "political cover" and to avoid "interfering with an arena deal?"

If there's an arena deal to interfere with... GREAT! Fantastic! The Coyotes in a new PHX arena and Salt Lake expansion gets EVERYONE the most money. It's obviously the preferred outcome and always has been!


You ONLY need the secret plan if there's no area deal to get in PHX AND Meruelo won't sell the team. Which seems unlikely since HE'S the one losing money at Mullet!

You can make a flow chart of Meruelo's options for the Coyotes and the "secret plan" is just the worst option.

You don't need that secret plan at all to get to ANY of the desired outcomes. So really, it's just fabricating NHL Black Ops to get clicks.

 

[dj4aces]

It just seems like the Coyotes have no leverage in their market. It’s not Baseball, Football, or Basketball. It’s hockey. And not enough people in that market care enough to put pressure on government to help the club. Sad really.

I don't think it's a bad market. Phoenix just isn't Toronto, where they can sell out the barn regardless of how good the team is. You look at San Jose, and they're barely attracting 13k to the barn because they suck (sorry, any SJS fans, but you know it too, right?). Phoenix, on the other hand, hasn't ever really had much in the line of success. A couple playoff appearances, but only one season -- 2011-2012 --- with any measurable success. It's hard to create new fans when the product isn't good.

 

[Fatass]

I don't think it's a bad market. Phoenix just isn't Toronto, where they can sell out the barn regardless of how good the team is. You look at San Jose, and they're barely attracting 13k to the barn because they suck (sorry, any SJS fans, but you know it too, right?). Phoenix, on the other hand, hasn't ever really had much in the line of success. A couple playoff appearances, but only one season -- 2011-2012 --- with any measurable success. It's hard to create new fans when the product isn't good.

Imo the coyotes market is not strong enough to put pressure on governments to help out the club. There are some super good and loyal fans. But of the millions there how many actually support the club? 30,000? Maybe? That’s just not going to move government to do anything.

 

[TheLegend]

The league schedules are made long before that, with some changes made as necessary. They just make more than one.

In reality, they did not decide a move was happening on May 31, and that was hasty. They didn’t even have a jersey at the draft. Similar entering North Carolina. They’re entering a new market here, and need to be buttoned up to do that.

There is a lot more groundwork that must be done, and I’d imagine that unlike with the Thrashers, they’d want a full marketing campaign in the area, which wasn’t really necessary with Winnipeg. Thryre going to want to start getting season ticket signups no later than April, if not before.

Bettman’s on record that the schedule is as simple to fix as changing a location.

 

[dj4aces]

You ONLY need the secret plan if there's no area deal to get in PHX AND Meruelo won't sell the team. Which seems unlikely since HE'S the one losing money at Mullet!

I would also argue that Meruelo can relocate the team himself. It's his team until it's no longer his team, after all. If it comes down to needing to relocate, if Meruelo cannot secure the 100 acres, he can simply see the writing on the wall and move to Kansas City or Cincinnati or wherever he wants unless the league jumps the gun and executes the so-called 'secret plan'.

Imo the coyotes market is not strong enough to put pressure on governments to help out the club. There are some super good and loyal fans. But of the millions there how many actually support the club? 30,000? Maybe? That’s just not going to move government to do anything.

Whether it was fan involvement that ultimately convinced Glendale to act to save the Coyotes or not, fans showed up to that city council meeting in 2011 and everyone who did provided their testimonials to that council. I remember watching it, fan after fan, some with kids, dressed up in their Coyotes sweaters and appealing for that stay of execution. You can argue that they were gonna save the Coyotes anyway, but regardless of intent, the outcome is clear.

 

[TheLegend]

I believe you're correct, mind you, and I'm not arguing that at all. It's just the reason that was given. Atlanta Spirit had already terminated the Thrashers lease in Philips, so if they were forced to keep the team in town for another season, they'd also be forced to play the team in that building.

It seems illogical and impractical, and perhaps it was a league bluff, but it's what I was told at the time.

So, when I saw "three months", two and two came together: A deal has to be done, and done before the end of May, or else.

They need to see a land purchase by then.

 

[TheLegend]

What gets me about Rodier's tweet storm is that it's just very reachy for what either he wants to happen, or what he thinks an audience will re-tweet or click/share.

It's the whole "secret plan" stuff that is a convoluted and illogical way to act like we're not just in the status quo until something happens.

The whole thing is based on the idea that the NHL has to line up their ducks in a row to execute a sleazy maneuver to one of their own owners, who's committed millions to try and make it work in Arizona (as the NHL has for the last 15 years).

Smith just asked the NHL to allow him to pay them hundreds of millions for a team. You don't need a sleazy maneuver for Smith to buy the Coyotes. The Coyotes are valued less than an expansion team. Just broker a deal.

Why do you need "political cover" and to avoid "interfering with an arena deal?"

If there's an arena deal to interfere with... GREAT! Fantastic! The Coyotes in a new PHX arena and Salt Lake expansion gets EVERYONE the most money. It's obviously the preferred outcome and always has been!


You ONLY need the secret plan if there's no area deal to get in PHX AND Meruelo won't sell the team. Which seems unlikely since HE'S the one losing money at Mullet!

You can make a flow chart of Meruelo's options for the Coyotes and the "secret plan" is just the worst option.

You don't need that secret plan at all to get to ANY of the desired outcomes. So really, it's just fabricating NHL Black Ops to get clicks.

Rodier is just laying out the groundwork being done, or needs to be done by the league to minimize the league’s liability in case they have to make a move.

 

[GKJ]

Bettman’s on record that the schedule is as simple to fix as changing a location.

Because they make two schedules.

 

[Reaser]

I don't think it's a bad market. Phoenix just isn't Toronto, where they can sell out the barn regardless of how good the team is. You look at San Jose, and they're barely attracting 13k to the barn because they suck (sorry, any SJS fans, but you know it too, right?). Phoenix, on the other hand, hasn't ever really had much in the line of success. A couple playoff appearances, but only one season -- 2011-2012 --- with any measurable success. It's hard to create new fans when the product isn't good.

Attendance ...

San Jose watches their team. Ratings/viewership, especially compared to other 'southern' markets, is good. When the Sharks are good on-the-ice their viewership, including for national games, has historically been good. Even going back to pre-04/05 lockout NHL on ESPN, the Sharks were involved in the most-viewed regular season game on the previous ESPN deal. Sharks aren't the Yotes when it comes to ratings/viewership over the course of their franchise histories -- which period of existence can't be used as an excuse for the Coyotes since the Sharks aren't decades older.

Throw in other "hockey is popular" factors like having one of -if not the?- largest adult hockey leagues in the world in San Jose and the "hockey markets" are not the same/comparable.

 

[TheLegend]

BTW…. briefly had an exchange with Tony Cani on X today.

Told me he has seen the Coyotes making donations to the PACs of multiple Phoenix city council members

AZ Republic did report Meruelo and company met with one city councilman last summer around the time the the application to the trust was filed.

So it’s probably safe to presume the groundwork is being done on Meruelo’s end to have things rolling if this land purchase is completed.

….. in about 3 months.

 

[dj4aces]

Attendance ...

San Jose watches their team. Ratings/viewership, especially compared to other 'southern' markets, is good. When the Sharks are good on-the-ice their viewership, including for national games, has historically been good.

I thought I had included the part where the Sharks have historically been good vs the Coyotes having not been, but it appears I removed that part when I was editing before posting. My mistake. Yes, other than a few blips in their history, the Sharks have been a very good team. That was my point by mentioning them, where as the Coyotes haven't been.

Good teams create interest and fans. It's really that simple.

 

[KevFu]

It just seems like the Coyotes have no leverage in their market. It’s not Baseball, Football, or Basketball. It’s hockey. And not enough people in that market care enough to put pressure on government to help the club. Sad really.

Imo the coyotes market is not strong enough to put pressure on governments to help out the club. There are some super good and loyal fans. But of the millions there how many actually support the club? 30,000? Maybe? That’s just not going to move government to do anything.

It's really far less about fan leverage and more about the municipality structure.

In most places, the cities that get their names on the jerseys have all the power and money. The suburbs grew out in the 1950s. There's an administrative processes to become villages, towns, and then cities.

IE. - Los Angeles became a city in 1835, and is bigger ($8.1 billion budget) than all the places surrounding it put together. Irvine became a city in 1971, and has a budget of $144 million.

But in Arizona, there was no administrative process. "Have 3000 people and call yourself a city" was put in place before statehood. So today you have this:

Phoenix $3.5 billion budget
Scottsdale, Tempe and Mesa: $1.4 billion each.
Chandler, Gilbert, Glendale, etc: $500m to $1 billion each.


So for your "Fans pressure the government" situation... ALL the fans, regardless of where they live, can demand the city take care of the team: A rally at Baltimore City Hall demanded they build Camden Yards and an NFL Stadium to get the Ravens. But it HAS to be Baltimore. The towns can't afford it, only the big city can.

That doesn't happen in Phoenix, and actually works the opposite. There's no urgency for Phoenix to act, because they're not losing the Coyotes, Glendale just did. If someone wants the Coyotes, the others work against it: The City of Phoenix worked against the Tempe arena, because they didn't want to lose arena business. Phoenix and the Coyotes sued each other over it.

And all the fans can do is yell "Somebody do something!"

 

[Fatass]

It's really far less about fan leverage and more about the municipality structure.

In most places, the cities that get their names on the jerseys have all the power and money. The suburbs grew out in the 1950s. There's an administrative processes to become villages, towns, and then cities.

IE. - Los Angeles became a city in 1835, and is bigger ($8.1 billion budget) than all the places surrounding it put together. Irvine became a city in 1971, and has a budget of $144 million.

But in Arizona, there was no administrative process. "Have 3000 people and call yourself a city" was put in place before statehood. So today you have this:

Phoenix $3.5 billion budget
Scottsdale, Tempe and Mesa: $1.4 billion each.
Chandler, Gilbert, Glendale, etc: $500m to $1 billion each.


So for your "Fans pressure the government" situation... ALL the fans, regardless of where they live, can demand the city take care of the team: A rally at Baltimore City Hall demanded they build Camden Yards and an NFL Stadium to get the Ravens. But it HAS to be Baltimore. The towns can't afford it, only the big city can.

That doesn't happen in Phoenix, and actually works the opposite. There's no urgency for Phoenix to act, because they're not losing the Coyotes, Glendale just did. If someone wants the Coyotes, the others work against it: The City of Phoenix worked against the Tempe arena, because they didn't want to lose arena business. Phoenix and the Coyotes sued each other over it.

And all the fans can do is yell "Somebody do something!"

If the nfl club threatened to move the city and state would bend over to accommodate the club’s wishes. The same is true for baseball and basketball. Hockey has no leverage.

 

[TheLegend]

If the nfl club threatened to move the city and state would bend over to accommodate the club’s wishes. The same is true for baseball and basketball. Hockey has no leverage.

It didn’t happen here.

You need to look at what the NFL Cardinals went through just to get into their own stadium after playing at ASU for 18 years.

It was a long and dragged out saga and it falls right in with what @KevFu said.

 

[stealth1]

It didn’t happen here.

You need to look at what the NFL Cardinals went through just to get into their own stadium after playing at ASU for 18 years.

It was a long and dragged out saga and it falls right in with what @KevFu said.

If that's the case, than what makes anyone think this latest plan will end any different.

 

[Llama19]

Not to derail the thread...but an interesting...and extensive...history on the relocated Cardinals...

The controversy-filled history behind Arizona's Super Bowl stadium

Valley residents were treated by officials as an afterthought to the potential economic boom the stadium was touted to produce, years of previous reporting shows.

Source: www.12news.com/article/sports/nfl/superbowl/arizonas-state-farm-stadium-controversy-history-super-bowl/75-2f3c7a38-36a5-49e1-99fe-af3bceb2ee1e

 

[TheLegend]

If that's the case, than what makes anyone think this latest plan will end any different.

The only thing anyone can know is that it’s a process that will take time.

 

[Mightygoose]

Nothing new from Friedman on Saturday's Headlines tonight.

Says don't expect any clarity on this anytime soon (mentions 24-48 hours in this reference). Otherwise, stated things that have been mention already this week.

A few more '2 week' spans before this saga 'maybe' crosses the finish line.

 

[GKJ]

Elliotte Friedman saying not to expect the league to publicly address in the short-term as had been suspected.

 

[PredsHead]

Interesting note from Toni Cani about Craig Morgan's "reporting":

The issue is the report that went viral about the board discussing this in executive session and the assurance by Craig that a source told him some of this can be done in secret during exec session is either 1) bad information provided by a source or 2) the board broke the law by having this discussion which could nullify any decision they make/made. This also would mean the source that revealed privileged info also broke the law and could be fined. If that source is a member of the board they could (& should) be removed. So this report has created questions about past happenings that could impact future action. And for anyone doubting my analysis, the land dept is run by the governor and members of the board are appointed by the governor. Her chief of staff retweeted my thread. So did her press secretary. And his discussion in this live about these same issues included other statements that are not correct. So something is up with his source. I’m looking forward to this being cleared up.

 

[MayDayMayDay]

Interesting note from Toni Cani about Craig Morgan's "reporting":

If the application was filed back in June of last year, I'd find it hard to believe that it hadn't been broached in a prior session or agenda to make it ineligible to broach on E-session now.

 

[TheLegend]

Interesting note from Toni Cani about Craig Morgan's "reporting":

What the state rep did runs in a grey area and would not be worth being prosecuted.

Saying it “went well” and could all be “wrapped up in 3-months” is not revealing anything of consequence.

Had he mentioned any specific detail to actual content of the discussion in the session then it can be a problem.

Another thing where Tony is actually misleading…. no official decision other than procedural can be made in an executive session. That in itself would violate Arizona’s open meeting laws.

Now where Tony is correct….. is when Craig implied that these things can and often happen in secret. You aren’t supposed to do that. But anyone who’s been around Arizona politics long enough knows things are not always done “by the book”. But Tony has to take the stance that it has to.

BTW…. this was Craig’s own opinion. The state rep he talked to never told him anything other that the session went well and it could be wrapped it in three months.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Interesting note from Toni Cani about Craig Morgan's "reporting":

I'm surprised this isn't being talked about more, especially with this post on the main boards that indicates the Yotes land deal wasn't even discussed in the Executive Session....

So you really think a government representative at any level would have told Craig they 100% broke Arizona law for the Coyotes benefit?
Did you even read that Twitter thread?

Morgan is wrong, you can not “do some of this stuff in secrecy in executive session.” At least not legally.It is absolutely 100% against the law for any action to be taken or completed in secret if it is not formally agendized. No wiggle room here. It’s against the law. Anyone saying that is just wrong. I find it very hard to believe a gov’t source would be wrong about this.However, staff prepare reports for the board, and maybe convos are happening with staff as they prepare reports or prepare recommendations for future meetings. Perhaps that is what the source meant, but the public body MUST conduct business in public.

What was on the agenda was a discussion of a lawsuit about pipeline construction in southern Arizona. I do not see how anything coyotes could have been discussed in this e-session with this agenda item. I also don’t think the board would risk violating the law to have this discussion here, especially if they are eager to eventually get something approved. Why jeopardize things!?

He lied.

Edit: I'll even add that the Tempe city council is literally being investigated by the State Attorney General for doing 1/10th of what Craig is telling us what his "source" said went down. As this is investigation involves the Coyotes you would think Craig would have known better about no-no's in executive sessions in Arizona.

Tempe paid $32K to track Coyotes opponents. Now the city is under state investigation

The Arizona attorney general is looking into whether Tempe tried to influence the election outcome with public funds and broke open meeting laws.

www.azcentral.com

 

[Final Baton]

Looks like Morgan, in an attempt to provide content/hope to the fanbase, might have hurt the so-called deal (and maybe his reputation too) not a wise-move, wether it's coming from him or his source, to report this...

 

[eojsmada]

Will be interesting to see if anything leaks from Meruelo's meeting with the employees, this coming week. Owners just don't fly in for employee meetings like this unless he's going to reassure the employees or he's letting them know that things could be moving in a new direction.