CXLVI - Future of Coyotes up in air after Tempe rejects arena deal - will remain at Mullet Arena for 2023-24, looking at Fiesta Mall site in Mesa

[LadyStanley]

What the Coyotes can learn from the NHL's relocation history

The Coyotes would be wise to take some lessons from history if they embark on a quest to relocate.

sports.yahoo.com

Lessons learned?

 

[ColinM]

One thing the league could do is fold Arizona and approve an expansion team somewhere else.

Hear me out: The league's teams could hold a dispersal draft that would include Arizona's players, acquired picks, drafted players' rights, etc. That could add up to 2 assets per organization.

The league's teams could then split the expansion fees from the new franchise.

The dispersal and expansion drafts can happen the same week as the entry draft.

Win/win.

I was thinking the same thing. They got by with 31 teams since Vegas joined the league. What's a few more years until a new landing spot they like is open.

 

[RogerRoger]

I'm genuinely curious what were official sources saying in the weeks before the Thrashers up and moved to Winterpeg? The situations are somewhat analogous.

I just don't know how it's feasible for a team to play in a 5,000-seat arena without a plan for a permanent major-league-sized facility. If there isn't a realistic option to move into one of the current arenas in Phoenix, and there is no plan to build a new arena, then what is the plan?

Atlanta owners were trying, unsuccessfully, to sell the team for 6 years. The asking price was known and since February (of the year they moved), it was publicly known that True North was willing to meet the asking price plus the NHL relocation fee.
The Coyotes were also in danger of relocating at the same time, but they had a great arena deal with the City, Glendale paid them 50M over 2 years, while Atlanta was (pretty much) getting kicked out of their arena. So the rumours were that it was likely that Atlanta would move to Winnipeg and that time was running out to keep the team there.

Early May Friedman said this: "The NHL believes it has a pretty ironclad agreement with Atlanta Spirit that will prevent Levenson and company from "walking away" from the team or declaring bankruptcy if there is no sale by next season. But, considering all of the goofiness from this ownership group over the past seven years, the league doesn't want to take the chance something ridiculous happens." (the goofiness would be this: Gearon and the rest of the Atlanta Spirit owners came under heavy criticism for the way they ran the Thrashers, especially when it was revealed in court documents they were looking to sell the team almost as soon as they acquired it in 2004.)

This is what Bill Daly said on May 12 "I can't guarantee the return of the Atlanta Thrashers for 2011-2012."

This is what Bettman said on May 15 when asked if the Thrashers are headed up North "So people just make this stuff up, right? Where's the accountability from all the people who a month ago were saying that Phoenix was definitely going? Whatever is being written [about Atlanta] is being made up."

On the 19th there was a credible report of the sale+move. Denied by the NHL and all the journos mouthpiece other than Kypreos. The report state that the sale and move had been approved months ago. Daly on ther report "the board has not been asked to consider nor approve any transaction involving the sale and/or possible relocation of the Atlanta Thrashers' franchise. . . . Any suggestion to the contrary is entirely untrue." From True North "True North Sports and Entertainment is denying the report and that it is accurate,"

On the 27 there were no more denials and the rumours were abundant. It was confirmed on the 31st. Bettman said "We don't like to move a franchise, We're not happy about leaving Atlanta. This was never about whether Winnipeg is better than Atlanta. The decision to come to Winnipeg was only made after the Atlanta ownership made the decision they were going to sell even if it meant the club was going to leave Atlanta."

 

[MMC]

They are 56 miles from LA, about half the distance as SD. But they count as a "separate market" because MSAs are about work/live commutes, and no one wants to make that commute!

There are plenty of people that commute from Riverside/SB county to LA for work

 

[Melrose Munch]

Buying the Coyotes won't. When I said $500m for them, I was including the relocation fee.

You think the NHL is going to be this reasonable? The NHL wanted 700 million for expansion last time which is why Fertitta walked away.

 

[Tawnos]

You think the NHL is going to be this reasonable? The NHL wanted 700 million for expansion last time which is why Feritta walked away.

An expansion franchise is more valuable than the Coyotes at the moment. Fertitta has said that he'd be more willing to buy a relocating team than an expansion team precisely because it would be cheaper.

 

[Melrose Munch]

An expansion franchise is more valuable than the Coyotes at the moment. Fertitta has said that he'd be more willing to buy a relocating team than an expansion team precisely because it would be cheaper.

Agreed, but this would publically be seen as taking a loss.

Jets played in the Southeast Division when we got a team again. Made no sense geographically and made for some weird start times from a Winnipeg perspective, but who cares? It worked itself out.

I see no reason why the Nordiques 2.0 shouldn't be at the top of the list other than the league obsessing over U.S. dollars and some mythical TV deal.

And what about the players and their NTCs? Already some guys don't want to come to Winnipeg.

 

[KevFu]

After last night, I am fairly certain next year will be a lame duck.

Not to get into it, but people in the know with Winnipeg knew the chances of getting Atlanta were very good January first.

And even then, Winnipeg's relocation was honestly way too late, and they had an AHL team's resources to lean on.

The only way a relocation can work this late is if you're going into an existing ownership group that is active in hockey right now. And probably only AHL markets. Just from a hockey ops/gm standpoint.

The AHL doesn't have a lot of "almost NHL" markets. There's SIX top 50 US markets that don't have an NHL team within 50 miles. There's no point in moving to a 7000 seats arena quickly, when you've GOT one of those in Tempe that you're in now.

That limits you to San Diego, Cleveland or Hartford.

And only one of those markets could be a permanent home.

 

[aqib]

Cleveland, Charlotte, and Baltimore are served by the Jackets, Canes, and Caps respectively.

If they have to relocate, I want the Yotes to go to Houston. Fertitta only wants in at a certain price point and otherwise the NHL is barred from that market. Then over the next decade or so:

#33 - SLC
#34 - Atlanta 3.0
#35 - Portland or Arizona 2.0
#36 - Quebec 3.0

There is little to no Blue Jackets following in Cleveland. Cleveland doesn't have the corporate base to support a 4th major league franchise. The Monsters draw well because tickets are cheap and the promotions are great. You can't expect that people who go because of $10 tickets and $1 hot dogs are going to pay NHL prices.

 

[GreenHornet]

Well, on the arena front, yes Pechanga Arena holds 13,000 for hockey and is old. It is home of the San Diego Gulls of the AHL (Anaheim's farm team, owned by the Ducks owner).

But the arena problem is true of almost every single location.

The age of Pechanga Arena already has three developers bidding on a new arena/mixed use plans for the location. Looks like they picked a front-runner, but there's still ballot measures and hurdles... and the intended home team of the arena IS a hockey team, just the AHL one.

The city has 3.5 million people, no major sport from October to March; that just lost the Chargers and lost the Clippers decades ago. An NHL team joining the bid to build an arena to replace Pechanga makes sense. You're gonna have a far easier time getting an NHL/NBA arena built than a AHL/G-League arena built, because "big league" sports are immensely more popular. San Diego (and Salt Lake) don't want to be MINOR LEAGUE, they want to be MAJOR LEAGUE.

San Diego probably the most sense of any option, TBH.


Yes, you have the Ducks/Kings 90 miles away, but (unlike the Bay Area with BART), going from SD to ANA/LA for a hockey game is non-existent. If you leave SD at 4 pm for a 7 pm Ducks game, you might miss puck drop. No chance on the Kings unless you leave by 3 pm.

When you look at "Markets" and see #17 San Diego... oh, it's too close to LA/ANA... take note of who #12 is: San Bernandino/Riverside!

They are 56 miles from LA, about half the distance as SD. But they count as a "separate market" because MSAs are about work/live commutes, and no one wants to make that commute!


As for "territorial rights," the Kings/Ducks have none. That's how the Padres exist, and how the San Diego Chargers and San Diego Clippers used to exist.

The Kings and Ducks can vote "no," but if the Coyotes tried to move to San Diego, got the arena deal done for the Pechenga Arena site... the Ducks and Kings would know they're going to lose 30-2.

The only way it DOESN'T make sense is if the SD Arena project is Samueli's arena project. If the Midway Rising thing is HIS real estate deal, and he's not letting an NHL competitor in (or if it's his deal and he wants the option of moving the Ducks there)

This answers some of my questions, but raises some more, mainly with regard to the arena, if I understand you correctly, the plans that are being made involve building a new arena (and mixed use) on the site of the current arena, right? If so, where would the relocated Coyotes (and I assume that's what we're talking about and not expansion at this point) play in the meantime? Since approval of any plan is still pending and construction will take a few years, I have to think the 'Yotes' situation, whether is relo or a new site in the Phoenix metro area) will be resolved long before a new San Diego arena is ready, no?

As far as market, what's the situation with Kings and/or Ducks TV coverage? Does it reach San Diego, and if so, could either or both owners try to lobby the BoG to choose another market like SLC, Houston, Atlanta or Quebec as a result?

 

[Melrose Munch]

Another round of applause for Jeremy Jacobs, you couldn't stop crying about Tilman being mean, almost screwed up the Seattle expansion with Tukwila and now this. The NHL needs a new BOG Head when this is done.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

You think the NHL is going to be this reasonable? The NHL wanted 700 million for expansion last time which is why Fertitta walked away.

Buying an extra seat at the table is going to be more than buying an existing seat.

 

[MeHateHe]

This is what Bill Daly said on May 15 "I can't guarantee the return of the Atlanta Thrashers for 2011-2012."

Thanks. This is interesting context.

 

[JimAnchower]

This is what Bill Daly said on May 15 "I can't guarantee the return of the Atlanta Thrashers for 2011-2012."

Slight correction, May 12.

Bill Daly 'can't guarantee' Thrashers will stay in Atlanta

NHL deputy commissioner in agreement with former pitcher Tom Glavine that franchise's future in city is uncertain

www.theglobeandmail.com

 

[JimAnchower]

Buying an extra seat at the table is going to be more than buying an existing seat.

One big reason is you aren't diluting everyone else's share of tv deals and everything else by purchasing the existing seat. All the slices of the pie are exactly as before.

 

[Melrose Munch]

This goes all the way back to Steve Ellman taking the Coyotes out to Glendale because their mayor at the time wanted to get one over on Scottsdale.

I can give several examples not even related to the Coyotes, but political egoism is well entrenched here and real.

It's so sad and now it's costing the Phoenix it's sports franchise. Is there a regional trade board or something? Maricopa doesn't seem to do anything to stop this.

 

[jkrdevil]

It's so sad and now it's costing the Phoenix it's sports franchise. Is there a regional trade board or something? Maricopa doesn't seem to do anything to stop this.

Sadly this inter-jurisdictional, infra-market fights over sports teams is common.

 

[tiredman]

Uncertain future of the Coyotes | Quebecor maintains "great interest in the return of the Nordiques"

Without confirming whether the company is active in the file of a possible relocation of the Coyotes from Arizona, Quebecor maintains its "great interest in

www.wirenewsfax.com

 

[aqib]

Just curious have season ticket invoices been mailed for next season?

 

[KevFu]

"Analogous" was the word I used and I'll stand by it. There was not an NHL-calibre arena available for the Thrashers, but with a gun to their head, I'd bet all the money in my pocket that the Thrashers could have found an arena somewhere in Georgia to play out of.

Uh, there's four hockey arenas in the state. The only one with over 11,400 seats is the one they were kicked out of.

There are plenty of people that commute from Riverside/SB county to LA for work

Yes, but not a high enough percentage to meet the MSA stats threshold that makes it one market, like "Dallas - Ft. Worth." You and I know that Riverside/San Bernardino / Ontario is BASICALLY THE LA MARKET. That's a given.

But the commentary was that the San Diego market was "too close" to Los Angeles/Anaheim. Anyone who thinks that hockey fans in San Diego can just go to Ducks/Kings games have never driven in Southern California.

Either San Diego is "separate" from LA and can have their own team (if an owner wants to put one there). OR if you consider that one big "mega region," then they can have three teams because it's both bigger and more spread out than the NY-NJ-CT mega-region.

There's the Dodgers, Angels and Padres. What's the difference?

 

[Vamos Rafa]

So unless I am missing something there would be six likely candidates for relocation if that is the route we are headed down:

1. Houston - Everything would already be in place and the Rockets owner has previously expressed interest, but he balked at the price.

2. Salt Lake City - Everything would already be in place and the Jazz owner has recently expressed interest, but there are questions about the market supporting both NHL and NBA teams

3. Sacramento - Everything would already be in place and the Kings owner has recently expressed interest, but there are questions about the market supporting both NHL and NBA teams. Also have to worry about poaching some fans from the San Jose market as they are relatively close.

4. Kansas City - Have an arena but no one has made any real effort to be an NHL owner in that market

5. Atlanta - Would need both an ownership group and an arena plan, but there has been some recent rumors that there are willing owners with an arena plan waiting on the opportunity. Would likely have to play in an ECHL arena in Duluth until a new arena could be built.

6. Quebec City - Have both an arena and a willing owner, but questions about the market long-term viability. Expressed interest in expansion but balked at the price.

Do the first 3 cities on the list have arenas that can accomodate hockey without the configuration looking extremely awkward? I thought Delta Center in SLC or whatever it’s called now was specifically made for basketball. I don’t even think it hosted hockey games i the 2002 Olympics

 

[uhlaw97]

Do the first 3 cities on the list have arenas that can accomodate hockey without the configuration looking extremely awkward? I thought Delta Center in SLC or whatever it’s called now was specifically made for basketball. I don’t even think it hosted hockey games i the 2002 Olympics

Houston certainly does.

The Toyota Center seats about 18K and is considered "NHL Ready."

 

[KevFu]

This answers some of my questions, but raises some more, mainly with regard to the arena, if I understand you correctly, the plans that are being made involve building a new arena (and mixed use) on the site of the current arena, right? If so, where would the relocated Coyotes (and I assume that's what we're talking about and not expansion at this point) play in the meantime? Since approval of any plan is still pending and construction will take a few years, I have to think the 'Yotes' situation, whether is relo or a new site in the Phoenix metro area) will be resolved long before a new San Diego arena is ready, no?

As far as market, what's the situation with Kings and/or Ducks TV coverage? Does it reach San Diego, and if so, could either or both owners try to lobby the BoG to choose another market like SLC, Houston, Atlanta or Quebec as a result?

I think the issues you bring up are certainly valid ones, I just think those same issues exist EVERYWHERE.

TV for example, every square inch of our two countries is divided up among the NHL teams for TV rights. The league just redraws those lines when they add new teams to give them territory.

With regard to the San Diego development plan... To be honest, I'm like just googling this stuff ahead of posting.

There's a block between Kurtz and Sports Arena Blvd that currently has Pechanga Arena on the wide West side, parking and a couple like, run down strip mall and maybe like a sketcky-looking lumber place on the narrow East End.

The plan on the project website is the Arena goes on the EAST END, where the strip mall/lumber spot is; then the parking lot of the arena gets turned into the housing part on the West End, and the middle is the "mixed" community space.

So the team could play in Pechanga until the New Arena is ready, move across the parking lot, then construction on the rest of the project begins.


A) I don't want to see the Coyotes move, or any city lose their team.
B) I want the Nordiques to come back (because, see: A).

C) The next Pacific Division team should be San Diego, period, regardless off the Coyotes. If the Tempe Arena passed and they started construction today... the NHL will eventually expand; and San Diego is definitely the top choice in a "one per division" batch of four. No NBA, no NFL, 3.5 million people.

 

[snovalleyhockeyfan]

It was a bit of a process to get Seattle an NHL stadium, to put it lightly.

That was all at the feet of the Seattle City Council. There was never any request for regional cooperation on either of the arena proposals (the Hansen proposal in SoDo or what ended up being the new Climate Pledge Arena). This was all their doing and no one else's. And that was IIRC a source of some frustration for folks during that discussion here in Seattle.

 

[TheLegend]

Just curious have season ticket invoices been mailed for next season?

I believe so.

Gutierrez mentioned something the other day about their renewals were doing fine. But last night is going to change that mood. Even with the league saying the team will be playing at Mullett next year.