CXLVI - Future of Coyotes up in air after Tempe rejects arena deal - will remain at Mullet Arena for 2023-24, looking at Fiesta Mall site in Mesa

[patnyrnyg]

Agreed. The other aspect of it is that travel is dictated by order of games anyway....

The league doesn't schedule teams in blocks:
at ARZ-DAL-NASH, home vs ANA, LA, SJ, VGK
at WIN-WIN-CHI-STL, home vs NYR, NYI, NJD, PHI
at MON-OTT-BOS-PIT, home vs TOR, BUF, DET, CBJ

That being said (a), maybe they should. I was kinda surprised after the 2020-21 season that the league wasn't like "This two-game series thing really, really works!"

They do not play 2 games in the same arena against anyone but division teams. All the talk of doing that moving forward was pure stupidity.

 

[PredsHead]

I still want to see proof that Coyotes presence (top10 us tv market) or the addition of Vegas and Seattle made the US TV contract more lucrative.

If anything cable cutting makes it harder and harder for networks to capitalize on their NHL investments that it’s hard to see how putting a team in any city makes the contract has more value.

The difference in what ESPN and TNT are paying versus what NBC was paying should give you some idea of what they thought adding those markets were worth. The ratings alone from NBC certainly didn't justify that jump in price.

As for Canada, if you add a team to Quebec City, you don't actually create that many new hockey viewers from a TV standpoint. You are mostly just reallocating the ones that are already watching. So if I am an advertiser I wouldn't pay more to reach the same number of people just because the logo at center ice is different.

 

[TheLegend]

No doubt...15 hours after the poll results and there's already relocation focus? If true, this was always "plan B".

The "HFBoards effect" is in high gear today.

 

[Shwan]

I think it's really telling that for years, and I mean YEARS, the Coyotes were in Glendale and openly pined to move to Tempe. "All of our fans are in the east valley!!!". If the Coyotes had done anything to actually garner more fan support maybe the east valley wouldn't have collectively said "go f*** yourself"

In the end I guess the Coyotes' reputation preceded them, and they had too many enemies (the airport, the city of Phoenix, the Suns, labor unions that didn't get construction contracts, and of course, NIMBYs). Still I'm ASTOUNDED that this no vote happened. Meruelo and co should have done more to rile up the troops and advertise their campaign of course but holy shit the sheer apathy from Tempe that this vote signifies is really telling.

The Coyotes should have expected the no votes. I'm guessing their political consultants ran some really bad polls in North Tempe and took way too many lazy 20-30 year olds at their face value and thought they were safe.

Be that as it may, they *had* to have known their goose was cooked once these heat maps were coming out. Meruelo should have thrown millions in the span from May 9th to 15th alone for emergency get out the vote operations.

 

[jigglysquishy]

You mean Quebec 3.0. Again, if you're including the Atlanta Flames, then you need to include the Quebec Bulldogs.

That's ridiculous.

The Bulldogs left in 1920. The Flames left in 1980. We're only 43 years removed from the Flames leaving. Atlanta only went 17 years without a team. They're at 12 now.

Québec went 59 years without an NHL team. They're at 18 now.

It's completely apples to oranges.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

The Mormons are getting a team before the Nordiques. It's all about U.S. TV markets. Next up, Atlanta 3.0 will be the Eastern expansion team instead of Quebec 2.0.

Sad sad days for hockey, not right at all.

Canadian Dollar really hurts Quebec City. League balance (divisional balance) is working against Quebec City also. Salt Lake is a bigger market as a whole than Quebec City. In the states, out of the remaining TV Markets that don't have NHL teams are:

7 - Atlanta
8 - Houston
11 - Phoenix (sorry)
19 - Cleveland
20 - Sacramento
21 - Portland
22 - Charlotte
25 - Indianapolis
27 - San Diego
28 - Baltimore
30 - Salt Lake City

While population is lower in SLC, TV market is lower, I think the other 2 factors hurt Quebec City the most. Even though logistically they have the population, tv market, fan base, and arena ready to go. While I don't agree with the SLC thing, it is what it is.

 

[nhlfan79]

That's ridiculous.

The Bulldogs left in 1920. The Flames left in 1980. We're only 43 years removed from the Flames leaving. Atlanta only went 17 years without a team. They're at 12 now.

Québec went 59 years without an NHL team. They're at 18 now.

It's completely apples to oranges.

You're wildly missing the point. It's not the time gaps in and of themselves. It's the fact that Atlanta is a radically different city than it was in 1980. Or even 2011, for that matter. Has metro QC grown in the same order of magnitude in that same time?

 

[KevFu]

They do not play 2 games in the same arena against anyone but division teams. All the talk of doing that moving forward was pure stupidity.

I think the idea was "this is smarter. Less wear and tear on players. Who's unhappy?"

The idea of visiting TB-FLA one weekend and then doing it again three weeks later is what's stupid.

And don't tell me that "people don't want to see the same teams back-to-back, you want to play each team early once and late once" because THEY DON'T DO THAT AT ALL ANYWAY.

The number of times it's "We're gonna see this team twice in the next 17 days and that's it for (the season series / until three months from now)" is off the charts.

There IS a better way to do this.

 

[Ernie]

No doubt...15 hours after the poll results and there's already relocation focus? If true, this was always "plan B".

There is zero chance that NHLPA is going to stand by and watch the Coyotes play in front of 4000 fans indefinitely while Meruelo fumbles around.

Friedman mentioned a Hail Mary of moving them back in with the Suns, and I suppose there's a chance that they eat serious crow and make peace with Glendale.

Either way, I expect Meruelo is out. He's toxic.

 

[Bucky_Hoyt]

Houston makes the most sense to me. But if it was SLC now, that allows some time for Houston and Atlanta to come in as a pair in expansion. If Houston were to get a team now, I'd be a bit concerned about whether they'd pursue further expansion.

Houston and Atlanta could also end up becoming future relocation "fixes" for troubled clubs down the line.

I still think the NHL is likely done at 32 teams and any changes will come through relocations.

There is also no guarantee that a relocation fee is necessarily going to be less than an expansion fee. Especially, if you've got a finite supply. Do that and then the sky's the limit.

That said, with the Coyotes essentially serving as a cap shelter, it may be harder to justify a higher price in 2023 than some future team simply 'struggling' in 2037.

 

[GindyDraws]

The team wants Salt Lake City due to the free stadium that comes with the Olympics but there's, you know, the nasty environment to think about. Plus media market.

Houston, while facing similar environment calamities, had the benefits of a larger market and being used as a bargaining chip for a new arena. Plus, Houston is known for having no zoning regulations so they don't need to say "we can replace this landfill".

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

That's ridiculous.

The Bulldogs left in 1920. The Flames left in 1980. We're only 43 years removed from the Flames leaving. Atlanta only went 17 years without a team. They're at 12 now.

Québec went 59 years without an NHL team. They're at 18 now.

It's completely apples to oranges.

Oh stop...Do you have any idea how much has changed in Atlanta and everywhere else in 43 years? Atlanta has almost tripled in size.

In the end, if you want to ding Atlanta for "having a chance", then don't be hypocritical and act like QC hasn't.

 

[tiredman]

Hmm....

Quebecor wants partners in NHL team bid

www.sportsnet.ca

This was pretty open I'd say.

There in lies their failure.

- Bill Foley had all his ducks in a row when he applied. He even had a stake in the arena.

- Oak View Group in Seattle had all of theirs as well. And spent $970 million building what's essentially a brand new arena underneath a 60 year old roof.

Quebecor convinced the city and province to build them an arena and it would bring the Nordiques back.... No problem. Except they weren't ready, and they couldn't find any investors to come in.

Don't take this as me slamming QC. That's a passionate as hell fanbase up there, and I would have loved to see the Nordiques back in the league. My disdain is aimed at Quebecor (PKP in particular) for misleading those fans.

Yes, I remember this article. Quebecor, later, corrected their message and claimed they want be the only investor in the team (and that they also had they money).

Québecor pourrait acheter seule une équipe de la LNH

Québecor possède les ressources financières pour faire seule l'acquisition d'une équipe de la Ligue nationale de hockey. C'est ce que le président et chef de la direction de l'entreprise, Pierre Dion, a affirmé mardi lors de l'inauguration du Centre Vidéotron.

ici.radio-canada.ca

Anyway, I don't believe it that much to be honest. Things are changing here in Quebec. Interest in hockey is dying fast also I believe. I'm not sure a franchise would last long here and I'm not really sure Quebecor is still that much interested, except if the price is really low.

 

[Nordskull]

IMHO, Qc doesnt really want a team anymore.

 

[KevFu]

Houston makes the most sense to me. But if it was SLC now, that allows some time for Houston and Atlanta to come in as a pair in expansion. If Houston were to get a team now, I'd be a bit concerned about whether they'd pursue further expansion.

Houston "Makes the Most Sense" in terms of desirable location for the league, not messing with alignment, biggest market, etc.

Houston does NOT make the most sense when we're talking about "Getting a Deal Done."

An NHL team wants to own or operate the arena, not sublease from someone else. Houston and Salt Lake (or Portland) have to be the Rockets/Jazz owners buying the team, which gives them all the leverage.

Quebec could be the easiest deal to make because the leverage flips back to the Coyotes with the arena being built for an NHL team but not having one.

The other place I could see coming out of left field: San Diego.

 

[Headshot77]

Canadian Dollar really hurts Quebec City. League balance (divisional balance) is working against Quebec City also. Salt Lake is a bigger market as a whole than Quebec City. In the states, out of the remaining TV Markets that don't have NHL teams are:

7 - Atlanta
8 - Houston
11 - Phoenix (sorry)
19 - Cleveland
20 - Sacramento
21 - Portland
22 - Charlotte
25 - Indianapolis
27 - San Diego
28 - Baltimore
30 - Salt Lake City

While population is lower in SLC, TV market is lower, I think the other 2 factors hurt Quebec City the most. Even though logistically they have the population, tv market, fan base, and arena ready to go. While I don't agree with the SLC thing, it is what it is.

Cleveland, Charlotte, and Baltimore are served by the Jackets, Canes, and Caps respectively.

If they have to relocate, I want the Yotes to go to Houston. Fertitta only wants in at a certain price point and otherwise the NHL is barred from that market. Then over the next decade or so:

#33 - SLC
#34 - Atlanta 3.0
#35 - Portland or Arizona 2.0
#36 - Quebec 3.0

 

[Tawnos]

Oh stop...Do you have any idea how much has changed in Atlanta and everywhere else in 43 years? Atlanta has almost tripled in size.

In the end, if you want to ding Atlanta for "having a chance", then don't be hypocritical and act like QC hasn't.

It isn’t just the change in the city either. Sports economics are totally different.

 

[Dynamite Kid]

The difference in what ESPN and TNT are paying versus what NBC was paying should give you some idea of what they thought adding those markets were worth. The ratings alone from NBC certainly didn't justify that jump in price.

As for Canada, if you add a team to Quebec City, you don't actually create that many new hockey viewers from a TV standpoint. You are mostly just reallocating the ones that are already watching. So if I am an advertiser I wouldn't pay more to reach the same number of people just because the logo at center ice is different.

The Rogers Canadian T.V. deal of 5.2 Billion is the largest T.V. deal for the NHL. An 8th team means more televised games. What if Rogers wanted an 8th team in Canada? Would the NHL say no? I don't think so.

I think the team moves to Quebec. Three expansion teams will be added to create four conferences of 9 teams. This is what I think will happen. SLC will be an expansion team.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

Cleveland, Charlotte, and Baltimore are served by the Jackets, Canes, and Caps respectively.

If they have to relocate, I want the Yotes to go to Houston. Fertitta only wants in at a certain price point and otherwise the NHL is barred from that market. Then over the next decade or so:

#33 - SLC
#34 - Atlanta 3.0
#35 - Portland or Arizona 2.0
#36 - Quebec 3.0

Houston is prime target for expansion dollars. That would be like $750M or $800M by then. I expect that's what the league is holding out for.

 

[Final Baton]

The difference in what ESPN and TNT are paying versus what NBC was paying should give you some idea of what they thought adding those markets were worth. The ratings alone from NBC certainly didn't justify that jump in price.

As for Canada, if you add a team to Quebec City, you don't actually create that many new hockey viewers from a TV standpoint. You are mostly just reallocating the ones that are already watching. So if I am an advertiser I wouldn't pay more to reach the same number of people just because the logo at center ice is different.

With a Québec team you're still getting gate revenue and tv deal money.

And I'd argue you'd get new fans too : in my estimation a third of Nords fans stopped watching the NHL altogether. You'd gain those back. Along with some kids who aren't watching NHL but would be swept up with the local team frenzy.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

I've off- and on-mentioned SLC as a viable longterm target for the NHL, but to be clear I had always been thinking 2040s as a target date assuming continued market growth and wealth accumulation.

They've really come a long way in terms of public conciousness as an expansion/relocation target in very short order. Just proof that all it takes (in an American market) is one rich dude with a plan.

But still too early to count out Arizona. This isn't the first time they've been bandied about as relocation-imminent, and I doubt that this will be the last time, either.

Regardless, condolences to Yotes fans for suffering one way or another, again, again.

 

[willy702]

If the Coyotes relocate, that's exactly what's going to happen. Meruelo bought the Coyotes for $300m. The Thrashers relocation fee was $60m. What do we think the league would charge now? $100m? $200m?

The Coyotes sale could end up over $500m in the end.

A bargain compared to the Ottawa sale. At least you have location flexibility for that price. Ottawa is a tough market financially and still no certainty on a new building.

 

[Takuto Maruki]

The Rogers Canadian T.V. deal of 5.2 Billion is the largest T.V. deal for the NHL. An 8th team means more televised games. What if Rogers wanted an 8th team in Canada? Would the NHL say no? I don't think so.

I think the team moves to Quebec. Three expansion teams will be added to create four conferences of 9 teams. This is what I think will happen. SLC will be an expansion team.

...the same Rogers who freely admits the TV deal that they signed was an albatross even in the early stages of the contract? The same Rogers who is already looking at what is happening with the implosion of the RSN's in the US and realizing the same can happen in Canada, and that they can't exactly stop it?

 

[tucker3434]

Houston and Atlanta could also end up becoming future relocation "fixes" for troubled clubs down the line.

I still think the NHL is likely done at 32 teams and any changes will come through relocations.

There is also no guarantee that a relocation fee is necessarily going to be less than an expansion fee. Especially, if you've got a finite supply. Do that and then the sky's the limit.

That said, with the Coyotes essentially serving as a cap shelter, it may be harder to justify a higher price in 2023 than some future team simply 'struggling' in 2037.

They could, but I think they're too big to keep in your back pocket if they wiling and able. QC seems like the long term safety net to me.

 

[Headshot77]

For the record, I think putting an NHL team on Salt Lake City will be a complete disaster. I expect that whole city to collapse when the Great Salt Lake dries up and all the toxic arsenic-ridden dust gets even worse. Most of SLC's economic output comes from things that require the lake. Like Brine shrimp farming and magnesium extraction. Without the lake, you have a shittier economy and toxic air. The city will lose a significant portion of its population within our lifetimes.