CXLVI - Future of Coyotes up in air after Tempe rejects arena deal - will remain at Mullet Arena for 2023-24, looking at Fiesta Mall site in Mesa

[Mike Jones]

I can’t believe that I got locked in to reading this whole post just based on the “hear me out” line.

The NHL will never ever fold another franchise. Again, they will have done their due diligence in regards to different plans and options should this scenario have panned out the way that it has….Salt Lake City if they win the Olympic bidding again, which many believe they will, are going to need to build a new arena anyway. Three or four years in a 14,000 seat arena with an eventual newer building for both the jazz and an NHL team plus part of an Olympic bid does make some sense…

NHL teams like money - especially expansion fees. I'm sure the owners would make an exception in this case if folding the Coyotes mean more money for them from what comes next.

 

[Tawnos]

NHL teams like money - especially expansion fees. I'm sure the owners would make an exception in this case if folding the Coyotes mean more money for them from what comes next.

There really isn't a good reason the owners can't have a relocation fee from the Coyotes and an expansion fee from somewhere else.

 

[patnyrnyg]

When looking at homes the NHL would like, always google media market. This is why Bettman has been so insistent on keeping Phoenix alive. They're the #11 media market in the US. He doesn't want to lose that reach.

Atlanta is 6th
Houston is 7th
Portland is 22nd
Salt Lake City is 29th
Kansas City is 33rd

How have the tv ratngs been locally for Coyotes games? Having a huge market is 1 thing. Having interested residents of the market is another.

 

[Mike Jones]

For the record, I hope those of us from outside Phoenix can have a little empathy for the core Coyote fanbase who are looking at the real possibility of losing their hockey team. It would suck a lot and I'd like to think we can spare a kind thought for those folks.

This is bad all around, for the record. A major market has essentially rejected our sport. Yes, there are good fans there. Yes, they've had terrible owners and terrible teams and mismanaged politics, but at the end of the day, the city hasn't figured out a way to make it viable for a team to be in place, after more than a quarter century of actually being there. None of that is on the fans - the actual fans - but that's the stark reality.

So, I understand the reaction of those who are seeing this tragicomedy limp to a conclusion, but it would profoundly suck to have this happen to my team.

The same way people had compassion for Winnipeg when the Jets moved to Arizona? Or the same compassion when Canadian fans want an expansion team for a lucrative market like QC?

If Arizona does move their fans can join the really big club and grieve with that circle.

 

[TheLegend]

If the Coyotes are sold I can't see Atlanta landing them.

1) There is still A LOT of paperwork and analysis and approvals needed before they can start building the new arena in Forsyth. Everything looks/sounds promising at this point but there is still a tremendous amount of work left, including a few years to build the damn thing.

2) We don't even know if Krause et al have the money on hand to buy a team AND finance the construction of The Gathering and then sitting on/servicing that debt for for 2, 3, maybe 4 years without any revenue generation.

3) Assuming they do have the money on hand to buy right now and get the greenlight to move forward with The Gathering, where the hell do you even put them for the time being? Gwinnett? Glads just signed a multi-year lease with Gas South, do they just get pushed to the side? Take what's leftover from the schedule after the NHL?

I think the Atlanta group's goal has always been getting an expansion franchise; their presentation to the county used that word: expansion. Expansion works better for their timeline.

I can only see Atlanta being REMOTELY possible if the sale process doesn't begin for another year, preferably two.

Atlanta's timeline is not much different than TED and IIRC there is an arena in Gwinnett that's much larger than Mullett they could use.

 

[Mike Jones]

There really isn't a good reason the owners can't have a relocation fee from the Coyotes and an expansion fee from somewhere else.

So somebody should buy a team and then pay a pile of money to move it?

 

[Shwan]

I wonder if Meruelo had any idea where the vote would swing? Their shop sounds genuinely surprised and even shocked it failed, but to a neutral observer it felt like the cards were stacked against them a bit and that's not even related to the Coyotes.

These kinds of projects always sound good to sports fans talking about it on a sports forum, but the general public, over and over again, absolutely loathes any kind of sports spending and it takes a mountain of effort to convince them otherwise. It almost hardly matters how good the deal is, if they're worried about roads, infrastructure, taxes, health care etc. they do not want to see a nickel go to stadium projects.

If they were genuinely surprised they should absolutely sue their political consultancy firm lol.

From the first envelope drop the data was clearly showing the overwhelming majority of voters were boomers from South Tempe. The "Nimbyest of Nimby". Everyone knew the vote was in trouble.

You also have the problem that because of Kari Lake you had a decent subset of middle age white Republican males that are completely turned off from voting all together so those guys who usually like sports weren't going to show up.

 

[MeHateHe]

The same way people had compassion for Winnipeg when the Jets moved to Arizona? Or the same compassion when Canadian fans want an expansion team for a lucrative market like QC?

Two wrongs, etc. It wasn't the fans who led to the Jets being uprooted, or the Nordiques, for that matter.

 

[Mike Jones]

Two wrongs, etc. It wasn't the fans who led to the Jets being uprooted, or the Nordiques, for that matter.

No, but it does seem to be a pattern. Fans aren't always logical in how they treat others.

 

[Tawnos]

So somebody should buy a team and then pay a pile of money to move it?

If the Coyotes relocate, that's exactly what's going to happen. Meruelo bought the Coyotes for $300m. The Thrashers relocation fee was $60m. What do we think the league would charge now? $100m? $200m?

The Coyotes sale could end up over $500m in the end.

 

[Mike Jones]

If the Coyotes relocate, that's exactly what's going to happen. Meruelo bought the Coyotes for $300m. The Thrashers relocation fee was $60m. What do we think the league would charge now? $100m? $200m?

The Coyotes sale could end up over $500m in the end.

Then why would anybody want to buy them? A potential owner should just wait for an expansion slot to open up.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

If the Coyotes are sold I can't see Atlanta landing them.

1) There is still A LOT of paperwork and analysis and approvals needed before they can start building the new arena in Forsyth. Everything looks/sounds promising at this point but there is still a tremendous amount of work left, including a few years to build the damn thing.

2) We don't even know if Krause et al have the money on hand to buy a team AND finance the construction of The Gathering and then sitting on/servicing that debt for for 2, 3, maybe 4 years without any revenue generation.

3) Assuming they do have the money on hand to buy right now and get the greenlight to move forward with The Gathering, where the hell do you even put them for the time being? Gwinnett? Glads just signed a multi-year lease with Gas South, do they just get pushed to the side? Take what's leftover from the schedule after the NHL?

I think the Atlanta group's goal has always been getting an expansion franchise; their presentation to the county used that word: expansion. Expansion works better for their timeline.

I can only see Atlanta being REMOTELY possible if the sale process doesn't begin for another year, preferably two.

Atlanta's timeline is not much different than TED and IIRC there is an arena in Gwinnett that's much larger than Mullett they could use.

Atlanta's largest roadblock right now is getting an interested owner on board with deep pockets and the patience to see this project through. Krause isn't that entity. As I said in the previous thread, it would take someone/a group like Liberty Media. Not some random group of Anson Carter, Tom Glavine, and some buddies.

 

[Tawnos]

Then why would anybody want to buy them? A potential owner should just wait for an expansion slot to open up.

Expansion is going to cost at least $800m

 

[Mike Jones]

Expansion is going to cost at least $800m

Buying a team is going to cost more - especially when you add a relocation fee.

 

[Tawnos]

Buying a team is going to cost more - especially when you add a relocation fee.

Buying the Coyotes won't. When I said $500m for them, I was including the relocation fee.

 

[Mike Jones]

Buying the Coyotes won't. When I said $500m for them, I was including the relocation fee.

That may be half of what that team is going to cost.

Besides, if anybody steps forward to purchase the league should just waive the relocation fee as a serious thank you.

 

[Final Baton]

Can't a Québec team play a year or two in the Central, until Atlanta/Houston/SLC joins?

I see some journos and fans stating that the east coast thing means Québec can't be a relo option here, but I don't see it that way.

 

[Rob]

Buying a team is going to cost more - especially when you add a relocation fee.

Well that’s the thing. The NHL doesn’t have to overcharge on the relocation fee. Houston is the perfect spot for the team to move but they rightfully aren’t going to overpay for a failed franchise. They hold the leverage here.

 

[Saskatoon]

The saga that never seems to end. It's looking like it might but how many times have we thought that over the years?

Time is a flat circle or something

 

[Mightygoose]

Salt Lake City probably makes the most sense if they need to move the team quickly.

Ryan Smith already owns the arena even though configuration wouldn't be perfect. They won't be renters. This puts this over Houston or Kansas City

With a very likely 2030 or 2034 winter games coming a new arena will be very likely built. This puts it over Sacramento.

Keep in the west and even stay in the central

 

[aqib]

Meruelo has more than just the Coyotes ya know. If I learned anything about Alex Meruelo the biggest one is he keeps a constant hand on all of his businesses. That requires him to be everywhere and so he has to rely on a small number of people he can trust.

When Meruelo bought the franchise, Ahron Cohen was the team attorney Barroway had kicked up to CEO and initiated the talks with Tempe. But he didn't have enough experience or clout to be a deal closer and Meruelo likes to have someone he's more familiar with. So Gutierrez was brought in specifically to hammer out this proposal. Gutierrez has done multiple billon plus dollar deals like this. AND he did a real good job with this one.

Where things went wrong (and I'm getting this from a couple of people who are well plugged into the political landscape here), they grossly underestimated the reach a couple of key people in the No group had with the locals. They got out early, and got THEIR message embedded into the most likely voters. Even with most of their message was highly exaggerated and in some cases an outright lie.... it didn't matter. They got to the voter first.

So is literally everyone who has bought a sports team in the past 20 years. Steve Ballmer is worth tens of billions more than Meruelo and when major things like the Clippers Arena are happening he's there Dan Gilbert is worth like $20 billion and we saw him everywhere in Cleveland before his stroke. I love how you think this franchise is a unique little snowflake and the same rules don't apply to you that apply to everyone else. They didn't pay their tax bills because they moved offices and the mail didn't get forwarded, the owner is busy so he can't show up to do the bare minimum pr, our city has too many fun things to do so our fans won't show up unless they win consistently, etc.

 

[LPHabsFan]

Keep in mind that there exists, I believe in the NHL bylaws, a clause that allows for part of the sale to include something along the lines of "market value difference" which basically allows the NHL to negotiate a separate fee outside of the teams "sale" price that would go directly to the NHL. This is where they could tack on however much they want to the sale, albeit it needs to be negotiated, and it goes to the NHL and not the owner who's team is being bought.

The other element of the sale price for the Coyotes is that for appearances sake, it's going to be MUCH higher than people think for one reason: debt. They've accumulated hundreds of millions of dollars in debt that needs to be dealt with and it's a great way to prop up the sale price.

 

[Tawnos]

That may be half of what that team is going to cost.

Besides, if anybody steps forward to purchase the league should just waive the relocation fee as a serious thank you.

They didn't have to do that for the Thrashers, who were literally evicted from their building.

I don't know why you think the Coyotes are going to cost as much as a team like the Senators. It's a distressed asset in many ways. Forbes had them at $450m in franchise value. So maybe it'll be closer to $600m with the relocation fee, but it's not going to be $1B.

 

[cbcwpg]

Then why would anybody want to buy them? A potential owner should just wait for an expansion slot to open up.

Relocation will always be cheaper than expansion. In relocation you are doing the NHL a favor by buying a distressed asset that the NHL wants to keep, and you are agreeing to owning it in a supposedly better place. This favor will save you some money. In relocation, the NHL's options can be pretty limited. That's why Winnipeg didn't pay all that much to relocate the Thrashers. Winnipeg, at the time, was the only place ready to take a team. If Winnipeg hadn't taken the team, they probably would have folded.

Expansion, you are coming to the league and asking to be let in the door. The favor is in the other direction and the NHL existing owners will demand more money. They don't have to let you in.

 

[tiredman]

Quebecor needed investors and didn't get them.

It's not exactly what happened. Quebecor always said officially they were not looking for other investors. However, other investors, through the media, claimed they would be interested in investing.

However, after they submitted their bid and before the results were announced by the league, Quebecor claimed that fans shouldn't expect a team through an expansion but should hope for a relocation and that fans should have to wait many years before it happens (but it seemed hopeful that it would happen). They also said that it should cost a lot less through a relocation.

https://www.lapresse.ca/sports/hock...-de-la-lnh-quebec-ce-nest-pas-pour-demain.php

What happened exactly behind the doors? My guess is the league told them a relocation is the only for Quebec. And perhaps a promise that they would be given a chance if a relocation happens.