CXLVI - Future of Coyotes up in air after Tempe rejects arena deal - will remain at Mullet Arena for 2023-24, looking at Fiesta Mall site in Mesa

[Shwan]

I would float the possibility of a partnership with Verde for the site development, rather than a complete buyout of the land by Meruelo.

If that was a possibility Meruelo would/should have done that with TED because Ernie has like 90% of his holdings on the Rio Salado/Priest intersection as well as he (Verde) was the one holding the option on the little bit of land Tempe was going to have to buy back to make TED work.

Verde Investments, Drivetime and Carvana all have their Corporate HQs on that intersection.

 

[mouser]

If that was a possibility Meruelo would/should have done that with TED because Ernie has like 90% of his holdings on the Rio Salado/Priest intersection as well as he (Verde) was the one holding the option on the little bit of land Tempe was going to have to buy back to make TED work.

Verde Investments, Drivetime and Carvana all have their Corporate HQs on that intersection.

I know. The TED proposal didn’t specify which other partners could be involved in the site development. It’s not impossible Meruelo was already discussing possible Verde involvement in TED.

 

[Chet Manley]

Out of curiosity how lucrative is owning the next arena built in the metro area? Are the two other major arena's turning away events or trending towards that? Are other venues in heavy use for concerts and such?(Vet Memorial?) I'm having trouble finding numbers. If there is a big demand for another venue than all of this would make more sense.

 

[jonathan613]

This is the same NHL which extorted $50 million from Glendale?

Good luck with that.

I get the bad history but money tends to have a way of overcoming those issues. Business is Business.

 

[aqib]

I don't think it would be much different from Eugene Melnyk to be honest. - his other investments dried up so he was only left with the hockey team - but the hockey team then exploded in value.

I think a team in Hamilton would have been highly profitable. Maybe not TML level but still pretty decent.

I think if Balsillie would have sold RIM stock and completed the purchase he would probably be better off today

The internet claims his net worth is $800 million today (which is nothing to snuff at)

But in 2011 it was $1.8 billion according to Forbes

I love how people think he is suddenly poor. The team would probably worth over $1 billion right now if they were in Hamilton. If he had spent say $300-$350 million to buy and move the team (payoff Glendale and Buffalo) His net worth would be much higher if he had pulled it off.

 

[Llama19]

Coyotes relocation: How financial woes, instability have followed the franchise from Winnipeg to Arizona

Source: www.cbssports.com/nhl/news/coyotes-relocation-how-financial-woes-instability-have-followed-the-franchise-from-winnipeg-to-arizona/

 

[awfulwaffle]

Out of curiosity how lucrative is owning the next arena built in the metro area? Are the two other major arena's turning away events or trending towards that? Are other venues in heavy use for concerts and such?(Vet Memorial?) I'm having trouble finding numbers. If there is a big demand for another venue than all of this would make more sense.

Vet Memorial is used for the state fair.

You can go to the sites for the venues and see what events are coming up to get an idea of how many events come to town and where they go.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

To me 2 things are clear :

1)If the situation is going to get resolved, the NHL will need to take direct control of the situation. Meruelo has burned too many bridges
2)The only good solution for now is not to build an arena , but to commit to play in existing arenas for a significant period of time to show a commitment to AZ. Then when the team is on better financial footing, build a new arena.

My solution is as follows:

1) Have the NHL negotiate on behalf of meruelo with glendale for a 10 year deal in which the coyotes will pay -say 150 million - for the duration of the deal to wipe out the city debt. The coyotes would commit to playing all weekend games in glendale and be given some control of the other revenue streams the arena can provide similar to the other NHL teams. After 10 years the coyotes would be given the right to demolish the arena in glendale. On the weekends and if games on friday nights could be scheduled to start at 8PM, i do not see location as much of an issue

2) Play the weeknight games in the footprint center-obstructions and all. It is still a lot better solution than mullet arena

3)Focus your money on having a competitive team payroll wise

4)In the long term, come to an agreement with ishbia on merging the coyotes and suns ownership with an eye on a massive renovation of the footprint center. the teams would temporarily play in glendale

I think the bridge in Glendale has been well and truly burned.

And while current ownership isn't to blame for that, they weren't able to build bridges in their time in Glendale either.

You need another owner to re-establish that relationship that isn't the NHL itself.

 

[Stumbledore]

I think the bridge in Glendale has been well and truly burned.

And while current ownership isn't to blame for that, they weren't able to build bridges in their time in Glendale either.

You need another owner to re-establish that relationship that isn't the NHL itself.

Another owner of what? An NHL team? It was the Bettman-National-Hockey-League that ripped off Glendale to the tune of FIFTY million dollars. Having a new owner, or a new team, or a new whatever won't make a bit of difference to Glendale if it reeks of NHL scent.

I get the bad history but money tends to have a way of overcoming those issues. Business is Business.

Yep, and Glendale will like say "Give us back the $50 million you extorted and then we'll be ready to talk business."

 

[aqib]

Another owner of what? An NHL team? It was the Bettman-National-Hockey-League that ripped off Glendale to the tune of FIFTY million dollars. Having a new owner, or a new team, or a new whatever won't make a bit of difference to Glendale if it reeks of NHL scent.


Yep, and Glendale will like say "Give us back the $50 million you extorted and then we'll be ready to talk business."

You can't really blame Bettman for asking. Glendale was stupid for agreeing to it twice.

 

[bleedblue94]

Another owner of what? An NHL team? It was the Bettman-National-Hockey-League that ripped off Glendale to the tune of FIFTY million dollars. Having a new owner, or a new team, or a new whatever won't make a bit of difference to Glendale if it reeks of NHL scent.


Yep, and Glendale will like say "Give us back the $50 million you extorted and then we'll be ready to talk business."

And an interesting question to that is how much money is the league losing per year at mullet vs Glendale? Curious where the breakeven is

 

[TheLegend]

You can't really blame Bettman for asking. Glendale was stupid for agreeing to it twice.

Context.....

The arena was barely 7 years old. Only the core of Westgate was built to that point and the city had been assured both times that the league would have a sale done in short order. Allowing the city to get the money back.

Hulsizer's bid was reliant upon the $100 million "parking deal" that Goldwater Institute rained cupcakes over.
Jamison's bid was reliant upon a consortium of people that had no clear dominant shareholder.

City was also committed to Camelback Ranch (Dodgers, White Sox spring training) which had just opened.

 

[BMN]

I love how people think he is suddenly poor. The team would probably worth over $1 billion right now if they were in Hamilton. If he had spent say $300-$350 million to buy and move the team (payoff Glendale and Buffalo) His net worth would be much higher if he had pulled it off.

Obviously the league didn't seem too interested in allowing Balsillie to do that after a certain point but I agree with your overarching point: If there was a universe where the NHL and Balsillie came to an agreement to put a NHL team in Hamilton (relocated or otherwise), he'd be worth much more than what he is now. In fact, biopics like Blackberry might even have a very different take on the man. Both his actual net worth and his reputation took huge hits for how it all shook out.

The history of business people trying to bring the NHL to Hamilton seems to center on those businesspeople not wanting to play by whatever rules the NHL sets. The 1990 group wanted to treat the expansion process like a negotiation: "You've told us you want us to pay _x_ in expansion fees, but what if we pay _y_ and _z_ over these periods...." Balsillie's approach could have been a whole movie separate from Blackberry if the director wanted it to be.

I still think the 1990 bid was the bigger missed opportunity for Hamilton. Copps was still relatively new at the time and had a certain "shine" to it associated with its Canada Cup moments. The potential for growth was great, and with Harold Ballard having just recently passed away, the Leafs opposition powers were never going to be softer.

The arena was barely 7 years old. Only the core of Westgate was built to that point and the city had been assured both times that the league would have a sale done in short order. Allowing the city to get the money back. Hulsizer's bid was reliant upon the $100 million "parking deal" that Goldwater Institute rained cupcakes over. Jamison's bid was reliant upon a consortium of people that had no clear dominant shareholder.
I feel like Reinsdorf was the best chance. It felt like a rotating series of clown cars after that. Notwithstanding the issues Merulo may have, at least he really is very rich. He might as well be Jeff Bezos compared to the groups that were lining up for the Coyotes in the 2010s.

 

[Boris Zubov]

You can't really blame Bettman for asking. Glendale was stupid for agreeing to it twice.

I blame them both.

 

[Stumbledore]

You can't really blame Bettman for asking. Glendale was stupid for agreeing to it twice.

Yep, and every con artist hauled into court merely tells the judge: "You can't find me guilty because my victims were so stupid that I fleeced them twice."

 

[Ernie]

You can't really blame Bettman for asking. Glendale was stupid for agreeing to it twice.

The Glendale city council was extremely incompetent until Jerry Weiers came in and was willing to do just about anything that Bettman demanded.

But when Weiers brought an end to the public handouts, Coyotes fans were absolutely outraged. They demanded that their pastime be subsidized by the citizens of Glendale. That arrogance has continued to this day.

If the team had done the sensible thing and worked out a long term deal like the Florida Panthers did with their arena, the Coyotes wouldn't be on the brink of relocation. But Coyotes fans have made it clear they'd rather see the team leave than wait 20 minutes in traffic. So the team will almost certainly leave.

 

[Yotes2000]

So do the Coyotes still have a claim to sue Phoenix for damages? With the loss on the vote and all..

The Glendale city council was extremely incompetent until Jerry Weiers came in and was willing to do just about anything that Bettman demanded.

But when Weiers brought an end to the public handouts, Coyotes fans were absolutely outraged. They demanded that their pastime be subsidized by the citizens of Glendale. That arrogance has continued to this day.

If the team had done the sensible thing and worked out a long term deal like the Florida Panthers did with their arena, the Coyotes wouldn't be on the brink of relocation. But Coyotes fans have made it clear they'd rather see the team leave than wait 20 minutes in traffic. So the team will almost certainly leave.

Your view is so incredibly short sighted and the fact that you have Jerry Weiers and competent in the same sentence says it all.

For someone who's argued in these threads so incredibly much, it's amazing how off you STILL are.

 

[Ernie]

Your view is so incredibly short sighted and the fact that you have Jerry Weiers and competent in the same sentence says it all.

For someone who's argued in these threads so incredibly much, it's amazing how off you STILL are.

Well, only one of us has demanded a public subsidy for their entertainment, so I guess it all depends on perspective!

 

[TheLegend]

The Glendale city council was extremely incompetent until Jerry Weiers came in and was willing to do just about anything that Bettman demanded.

But when Weiers brought an end to the public handouts, Coyotes fans were absolutely outraged. They demanded that their pastime be subsidized by the citizens of Glendale. That arrogance has continued to this day.

If the team had done the sensible thing and worked out a long term deal like the Florida Panthers did with their arena, the Coyotes wouldn't be on the brink of relocation. But Coyotes fans have made it clear they'd rather see the team leave than wait 20 minutes in traffic. So the team will almost certainly leave.

You have no clue about Jerry Weiers but do continue.

The rest of your post is inflammatory at the minimum.

 

[Ernie]

You have no clue about Jerry Weiers but do continue.

The rest of your post is inflammatory at the minimum.

From where I'm standing, Jerry Weiers has done a great job bringing back his city from the brink of bankruptcy and spurring economic development.

 

[TheLegend]

From where I'm standing, Jerry Weiers has done a great job bringing back his city from the brink of bankruptcy and spurring economic development.

I’ve met the man. I work in Glendale ya know.

So if you want to erect a statue of him to worship on a daily basis then go right ahead. I know he’ll get off on it.

I’ll put the credit where it’s due and that’s with city manager Kevin Phelps.

(Did I tell you he thought the TED proposal was going to pass? Even he knew it was that good.)

 

[wildcat48]

I’ve met the man. I work in Glendale ya know.

So if you want to erect a statue of him to worship on a daily basis then go right ahead. I know he’ll get off on it.

I’ll put the credit where it’s due and that’s with city manager Kevin Phelps.

(Did I tell you he thought the TED proposal was going to pass? Even he knew it was that good.)

I won't argue with you on very much, but finish the rest of what he said....

 

[Llama19]

I won't argue with you on very much, but finish the rest of what he said....

Glendale, Coyotes officials react after Tempe voters reject hockey arena deal

To quote:

"Glendale City Manager Kevin Phelps, who has been an outspoken critic of how the Arizona Coyotes handled their tenure at the Westgate Entertainment District, told The Arizona Republic he thought Tempe voters would have approved the deal for a new arena and entertainment district there but the project would have never been built.

"I want to acknowledge that I come from a position of bias and a position of experience. I've always questioned the ability for the team that was put in place, the development team, to deliver on such a complex, high intensity-development, especially as the financial market changed dramatically," he said Wednesday."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/glendale/2023/05/17/glendale-reacts-arizona-coyotes-arena-deal-election-rejected-tempe-voters/70229186007/

 

[TheLegend]

I won't argue with you on very much, but finish the rest of what he said....

Like what?

He also mentioned he offered the arena at a very low price? And the Coyotes said they’d buy it but turn it into a church or tear it down and put an office building there?

Or offered to share ownership the arena three ways with Meruelo and AGM??

Or that they wanted a 15-20 year lease or nothing??

There’s been quite a few things said.

 

[TheLegend]

Glendale, Coyotes officials react after Tempe voters reject hockey arena deal

To quote:

"Glendale City Manager Kevin Phelps, who has been an outspoken critic of how the Arizona Coyotes handled their tenure at the Westgate Entertainment District, told The Arizona Republic he thought Tempe voters would have approved the deal for a new arena and entertainment district there but the project would have never been built.

"I want to acknowledge that I come from a position of bias and a position of experience. I've always questioned the ability for the team that was put in place, the development team, to deliver on such a complex, high intensity-development, especially as the financial market changed dramatically," he said Wednesday."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/glendale/2023/05/17/glendale-reacts-arizona-coyotes-arena-deal-election-rejected-tempe-voters/70229186007/

They dodged a bullet…. for now.

Phelps is correct how things were handled between the time Ellman and Moyes split the team off from Westgate and everything else right up until Meruelo bought the franchise and knew it was unfixable.