CXLVI - Future of Coyotes up in air after Tempe rejects arena deal - will remain at Mullet Arena for 2023-24, looking at Fiesta Mall site in Mesa

[Ernie]

I’ve met the man. I work in Glendale ya know.

So if you want to erect a statue of him to worship on a daily basis then go right ahead. I know he’ll get off on it.

I’ll put the credit where it’s due and that’s with city manager Kevin Phelps.

(Did I tell you he thought the TED proposal was going to pass? Even he knew it was that good.)

I can't speak to his personality but it was after he was elected that things started to turn around. Maybe it's all due to hiring a competent manager. Either way, you can't really argue that the city hasn't been successful under his mayoralty.

 

[Shwan]

(Did I tell you he thought the TED proposal was going to pass? Even he knew it was that good.)

"I want to acknowledge that I come from a position of bias and a position of experience. I've always questioned the ability for the team that was put in place, the development team, to deliver on such a complex, high intensity-development, especially as the financial market changed dramatically,"

I do wonder if other Coyotes fans even understand the pain Mesa and Tempe are going to be in in 2024. It was a very common theme among no voters.

Mesa already is getting a black eye from their $330M sports complex right now.

The deal might have been good for the City and Meruelo but it certainly wasn't going to be for the people living in all the low rent apartment complexes within 5 miles of the site.

 

[BMN]

I do wonder if other Coyotes fans even understand the pain Mesa and Tempe are going to be in in 2024. It was a very common theme among no voters. Mesa already is getting a black eye from their $330M sports complex right now.

Random question from an outsider online idiot: Is there any portion of that complex that could be rescued/renovated for an arena? For e.g. is it completely impossible for the Merulo group to take the money they were pitching, renovate the small arena into a big one and somehow build commerce around the park, and maybe solve everyone's problems? Or did I just create the dumbest idea known to humankind?

 

[Shwan]

Random question from an outsider online idiot: Is there any portion of that complex that could be rescued/renovated for an arena? For e.g. is it completely impossible for the Merulo group to take the money they were pitching, renovate the small arena into a big one and somehow build commerce around the park, and maybe solve everyone's problems? Or did I just create the dumbest idea known to humankind?

Don't beat yourself up but there is 0% chance. Legacy park is more for rec/youth sports than professional and it is so far out to the East Valley it would make Glendale's arena look like it's in downtown Phoenix.

Now I do bring this up because I would say if Meruelo decides to go all in on Fiesta Mall in West Mesa that if he were to find a group of other people to buy legacy park it would basically endear him to the entirety of East Mesa.

He could then build some youth rinks there to help continue to grow the game.

But that assumes he has the money.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Random question from an outsider online idiot: Is there any portion of that complex that could be rescued/renovated for an arena? For e.g. is it completely impossible for the Merulo group to take the money they were pitching, renovate the small arena into a big one and somehow build commerce around the park, and maybe solve everyone's problems? Or did I just create the dumbest idea known to humankind?

Certainly not the dumbest idea ever, but no I don't think there's anything really "there".

(note I'm a complete outsider as well, but have been following the Coyotes off-the-ice issues for what - 14 years now)

So here's a lit of the facilities at Legacy Park (taken from Wiki):

• 5,000 seat outdoor stadium
• 2,800 seat indoor stadium
• 35 soccer/lacrosse fields
• 57 indoor volleyball courts
• 8 baseball/softball fields
• 20 basketball courts
• 41 pickleball courts
• 12 beach volleyball courts
• 22 futsal courts
• Gymnastics center
• Dance studio
• Cheer center
• Sports performance center

So the closest thing would be the 2800 seat indoor stadium. That's smaller than Mullet arena, and doesn't sound like it even has an ice plant (no mention of hockey amongst any of the sports played there). To rebuild that as a 15-18k hockey arena would virtually mean starting from scratch. All of the rest of it would just mean a lot of extra headaches for the Coyotes and a business that is not successful at present.

And fundamentally - the Coyotes don't work as a stand-along business. Not in the short to medium term. If they did they could just go sign aa long-term lease at Glendale and be on their way. They need additional sources of income to offset losses - at least until the fanbase can grow enough to be self-sustaining.

The TED was going to have that additional income coming from the development right to the land. There's no development rights here.

 

[Yukon Joe]

But that assumes he has the money.

It's impossible to say for sure, but going through Alex Meruelo's history it does seem that while he's no flim flam artist like John Spano, but that he seems like he's pretty highly leveraged and doesn't have access to a ton of liquid assets.

(note: I absolutely don't have access to his financial records and am just making an educated guess here)

 

[Roadrage]

Certainly not the dumbest idea ever, but no I don't think there's anything really "there".

(note I'm a complete outsider as well, but have been following the Coyotes off-the-ice issues for what - 14 years now)

So here's a lit of the facilities at Legacy Park (taken from Wiki):

• 5,000 seat outdoor stadium
• 2,800 seat indoor stadium
• 35 soccer/lacrosse fields
• 57 indoor volleyball courts
• 8 baseball/softball fields
• 20 basketball courts
• 41 pickleball courts
• 12 beach volleyball courts
• 22 futsal courts
• Gymnastics center
• Dance studio
• Cheer center
• Sports performance center

So the closest thing would be the 2800 seat indoor stadium. That's smaller than Mullet arena, and doesn't sound like it even has an ice plant (no mention of hockey amongst any of the sports played there). To rebuild that as a 15-18k hockey arena would virtually mean starting from scratch. All of the rest of it would just mean a lot of extra headaches for the Coyotes and a business that is not successful at present.

And fundamentally - the Coyotes don't work as a stand-along business. Not in the short to medium term. If they did they could just go sign aa long-term lease at Glendale and be on their way. They need additional sources of income to offset losses - at least until the fanbase can grow enough to be self-sustaining.

The TED was going to have that additional income coming from the development right to the land. There's no development rights here.

Wow...that place would sound amazing! 35 soccer/lacrosse fields, 8 baseball/softball fields, 12 beach vollyball courts...wow.

 

[Shwan]

It's impossible to say for sure, but going through Alex Meruelo's history it does seem that while he's no flim flam artist like John Spano, but that he seems like he's pretty highly leveraged and doesn't have access to a ton of liquid assets.

(note: I absolutely don't have access to his financial records and am just making an educated guess here)

I don't blame but I would like him to come clean.

He bought the Sahara for $500-$700M on 2018. He bought the Coyotes for $300M in 2019. What happened from 2020 to 2022 that prevented either of those things to generate revenue?

Now even here with this arena in Tempe. Even if he could say he's recovered from the pandemic we're starting down the barrel of significant setback economic turmoil.

The Fed rate went from like 3.75 to 5.25 just in the time between the city approving the vote and vote taking place. No one knows what the hell is happening with Commercial real estate but it's probably not going to be good.

It's already not a good place to be then you account for the fact that Tempe already has another $1.8B luxury retail/office/condo district with a year head start being built less than 3 miles away. I don't see how many investors would be lining up to get a piece of TED when competition in the economic downturn is going to get ugly.

 

[mouser]

Mesa already is getting a black eye from their $330M sports complex right now.

IMO There's no real black eye to Mesa over Legacy Park. If any blame should be attached it's the statewide Arizona Industrial Development Authority which approved the unsecured tax-free bonds. It's not like Mesa owns, financed, or secured loans for the complex.

 

[Shwan]

IMO There's no real black eye to Mesa over Legacy Park. If any blame should be attached it's the statewide Arizona Industrial Development Authority which approved the unsecured tax-free bonds. It's not like Mesa owns, financed, or secured loans for the complex.

I agree that it's not Mesa's fault but Mesa is the one that has to deal with the negative optics. Just like the TED, vote no one wants to talk about the boring stuff like lapses in Developmental Bond Authorization procedures.

They want to talk about the park losing it's name sponsorship or how much money it has left to operate.

Which forces Mesa's city manager to put out this:

“Mesa doesn’t comment on private business matters. As we understand it, the developer plans to continue operating the facility and developments surrounding Legacy Park are moving ahead. The business of amateur sports is strong and continues to attract thousands of athletes to Southeast Mesa each week.”

But that quote will probably be handy in a few weeks if this Fiesta Mall talk continues.

 

[MMC]

 

[Roadrage]

Can't quite put my finger on it but that vote feels rigged. Almost looks like the "voting" in China and Russia lol.

 

[Yukon Joe]

This feels more like the Yotes social media person trying to stir the pot rather than any particular message from Yotes management. But that's just my gut feeling.

 

[KevFu]

How much if anything will playing out of Mullet be on HRR for the next 3-5 years?

Well, every team's weight in the average of the league is 1-of-32, or 3.1%.

So to cause the cap to go down, they'd have to be $32 million shy of last year's revenue, which probably isn't going to happen (Forbes estimated their gate receipts for 2022 at $27 million (the Devils and Panthers at $34m, Buffalo at $32m). We know it won't be zero.


The real problem with the CBA and tying the cap to average HRR is that teams don't GROW their revenues at the same rate. The cornerstone uber rich franchises grow their revenues at a higher rate, which makes the small market franchises poorer and poorer by comparison.

This exists outside of the Coyotes. The most important thing for the league is to have balance on each side. You can make the argument (and I have plenty of times) that having one team that's so far down it keeps more teams above-average is a GOOD thing.

In the past, we've had like 11 teams above average and 19 below average and that's when you have labor stoppages.

You WANT A perfect bell curve, where 1 and 32, 2 and 31, 3 and 30, etc etc, are equal distances from the average.

 

[KevFu]

Out of curiosity how lucrative is owning the next arena built in the metro area? Are the two other major arena's turning away events or trending towards that? Are other venues in heavy use for concerts and such?(Vet Memorial?) I'm having trouble finding numbers. If there is a big demand for another venue than all of this would make more sense.

This is one of the most misunderstood and irrelevant topics on this site.

All venues are going to operate in a way where THEY make money or they don't open their doors. If an arena isn't opening it's doors its because they didn't get any opportunities to make money. And it's that simple.

There WILL be more total events in the arena/event business the more arenas there are, period, because there's more opportunities for events to occur with more venues.

Arenas don't field phone calls from event organizers, say Sorry we're booked and then say "We turn down so many people, maybe we should open another arena!" They just raise their price to rent the venue, make more money and get less calls.

Yes, a new venue brings "opportunity cost" as is arena is dark instead of making a profit; but it's not actually LOSING money.

But most people talking about this in a context of SPORTS arenas and completely ignore that there's tens of thousands of non-sports venues people rent for events. It's up to each individual event organizer to find a venue that matches price-point of venue with projected ticket sales; and that burden falls on the organizer, not the venue.

It's the guy who runs an event in a 12,000 seat venue, sees a second arena open and says "I can move my event to the Suns arena now!" And then doesn't sell enough tickets to cover the rental that's gonna lose money. The Arena is getting theirs.

 

[wildcat48]

Like what?

He also mentioned he offered the arena at a very low price? And the Coyotes said they’d buy it but turn it into a church or tear it down and put an office building there?

Or offered to share ownership the arena three ways with Meruelo and AGM??

Or that they wanted a 15-20 year lease or nothing??

There’s been quite a few things said.

"I want to acknowledge that I come from a position of bias and a position of experience. I've always questioned the ability for the team that was put in place, the development team, to deliver on such a complex, high intensity-development, especially as the financial market changed dramatically," he said Wednesday."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/glendale/2023/05/17/glendale-reacts-arizona-coyotes-arena-deal-election-rejected-tempe-voters/70229186007/

He said he believed it would pass, but he followed up by essentially calling the franchise inept saying he never believed a shovel would be put into the ground.

So, I wouldn't say he believed it was a good deal. He just believed it would pass. Context does matter.

 

[mouser]

Pretty sure its in the NHL by-laws that new owners have to sign one, it made news when Meruelo was given an exemption. I believe when Meruelo bought the team it was reported that the reason Barroway kept his stake was that it was the NHL's reasoning for allowing Meruelo to bypass the seven year rule.

Sorry for the late reply, I wanted to double check the NHL Constitution and By-Laws before responding. I find no mention of a non-relocation requirement in either document.

We know the NHL has such a policy, but it’s not codified in those documents. In my opinion more likely it’s a default BoG ownership transfer policy the league/BoG can electively choose whether to apply or not on each ownership transfer.

It makes a lot of sense the NHL wouldn’t want such a policy in the By-Laws. The NHL cannot unilaterally alter or ignore the By-Laws. Would require PA approval or be subject to grievance.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

This feels more like the Yotes social media person trying to stir the pot rather than any particular message from Yotes management. But that's just my gut feeling.

They're going full shitposter.

Can't say I blame them to be honest given the circumstances.

 

[GordonGraham]

They're going full shitposter.

Can't say I blame them to be honest given the circumstances.

The Coyotes are like the guy who left his wife to move in with his mistress and then finding out the mistress doesnt want him there, hard to feel sorry for them

 

[BB79]

I still can't believe an NHL franchise is playing in a 5,000 seat college arena. It's insanity. Even San Jose's Cow Palace and the Ottawa Civic Center held 10k-11k as temporary homes when those teams entered the league.

 

[Blue Warriors]

I still can't believe an NHL franchise is playing in a 5,000 seat college arena. It's insanity. Even San Jose's Cow Palace and the Ottawa Civic Center held 10k-11k as temporary homes when those teams entered the league.

5000 is generous. Capacity is barely 4600.

 

[BB79]

5000 is generous. Capacity is barely 4600.

It's even worse than I thought

 

[Fatass]

I still can't believe an NHL franchise is playing in a 5,000 seat college arena. It's insanity. Even San Jose's Cow Palace and the Ottawa Civic Center held 10k-11k as temporary homes when those teams entered the league.

True. But imagine watching an NHL game in such a tiny rink. The atmosphere created by the closeness to the play would be incredible. It’s a must do for visiting club’s fans. Seems like the chance to go see one of those games is soon to be gone though.

 

[mouser]

I still can't believe an NHL franchise is playing in a 5,000 seat college arena. It's insanity. Even San Jose's Cow Palace and the Ottawa Civic Center held 10k-11k as temporary homes when those teams entered the league.

Interestingly, the small arena seems to have produced a significant home advantage for the Coyotes. Of the other non-playoff teams, only Pittsburgh (+4 points), Ottawa (+4) and Nashville (+1) had better home records. Those teams finished the season with 16 to 22 more overall points than Arizona. Seattle made the playoffs with a worse home record than AZ.

Home points for the bottom 10 teams in the NHL this season.

1. Anaheim: 28
2. Columbus: 34
3. Chicago: 32
4. San Jose: 27
5. Montreal: 37
6. Arizona: 47
7. Philadelphia: 41
8. Detroit: 43
9. Washington: 43
10. St Louis: 42

Not really the subject of this thread, but does raise an interestIng question whether home teams might have an increased competitive advantage in a smaller arena setting.


p.s. I anticipate someone will respond visiting teams weren’t motivated to play well in a smaller arena.

 

[Reaser]

Interestingly, the small arena seems to have produced a significant home advantage for the Coyotes. Of the other non-playoff teams, only Pittsburgh (+4 points), Ottawa (+4) and Nashville (+1) had better home records. Those teams finished the season with 16 to 22 more overall points than Arizona. Seattle made the playoffs with a worse home record than AZ.

They also were the worst road team in the league.

19th best at home without the qualifiers. Not sure that's significant?

In other words, did they have a significant home ice advantage or were they horrible on the road?

Lot more goes into it.

E.g. 20 of first 24 games on the road, including the 14-game road trip (not going to help road record.) And on the flip side, means they were at home a significant amount of time after that relative to normal/their opponents. Comfort improves home record, getting to travel significantly less for the last roughly 70% of the season is going to help home record.

Plus, of course, visiting opponents own comfort, not having NHL standard locker rooms/facilities/etc which are a byproduct of but not necessary because of a "small arena" (capacity wise.) Not sure I'd draw the conclusion that small capacity arena equaled significant home ice advantage.