CXLVI - Future of Coyotes up in air after Tempe rejects arena deal - will remain at Mullet Arena for 2023-24, looking at Fiesta Mall site in Mesa

[mouser]

E.g. 20 of first 24 games on the road, including the 14-game road trip (not going to help road record.) And on the flip side, means they were at home a significant amount of time after that relative to normal/their opponents. Comfort improves home record, getting to travel significantly less for the last roughly 70% of the season is going to help home record.

Plus, of course, visiting opponents own comfort, not having NHL standard locker rooms/facilities/etc which are a byproduct of but not necessary because of a "small arena" (capacity wise.) Not sure I'd draw the conclusion that small capacity arena equaled significant home ice advantage.

Fully agree with your first point the higher home/road ratio later in the season could have bumped the home winning % higher. Would be an interesting study for the stat geeks.

Don‘t agree with the second point on visiting team comfort. The first 4 visiting teams had to deal with the temporary setup. The other 37 visiting teams used the newly finished NHL caliber locker rooms and facilities.

 

[Reaser]

Fully agree with your first point the higher home/road ratio later in the season could have bumped the home winning % higher. Would be an interesting study for the stat geeks.

Don‘t agree with the second point on visiting team comfort. The first 4 visiting teams had to deal with the temporary setup. The other 37 visiting teams used the newly finished NHL caliber locker rooms and facilities.

I wasn't talking about the temporary setup, which was ridiculous.

The annex, an add-on, isn't the primary locker rooms/facilities of the arena, obviously. That's why I said not standard.

At the very best, it's "unique", but I stand by comment about visiting team comfort. Going to a college arena alone plays into that, then everything else that goes with it. Even visiting teams said it was "unlike any other in the NHL." Hence, not the/a "standard" setup for them.

 

[Reaser]

Fully agree with your first point the higher home/road ratio later in the season could have bumped the home winning % higher. Would be an interesting study for the stat geeks.

Either way, I don't want to get in the weeds here, or take the thread off topic. Wasn't even solely in response to you. Just saw a lot of "the intimate atmosphere propelled the Yotes to glory at home this season" attempts to spin the situation into a positive the last few months.

And then you look, and it's 19th best home record. Middle of the pack, or if you want to be negative, bottom half of the league at home. So, not exactly a significant home ice advantage in that case.

And comfort, can even use a positive. The ice by all accounts was/is fantastic, and tons of players compared it to other arenas where, not so much. I wasn't getting into good/bad, I was saying, different, and different to creatures of habit is not comfortable. Doesn't mean that's the lone reason for Yotes home 'success' (if one wants to quantify the home record a success,) or even a major reason, but taking it all into account, not being a standard NHL arena, tis a factor, nonetheless.

 

[BB79]

True. But imagine watching an NHL game in such a tiny rink. The atmosphere created by the closeness to the play would be incredible. It’s a must do for visiting club’s fans. Seems like the chance to go see one of those games is soon to be gone though.

It must be loud as hell on weekend games with all of those drunken college kids. It probably is kind of special in a way for the players, takes them back to their college playing days in a way

 

[Stumbledore]

I wasn't talking about the temporary setup, which was ridiculous.

The annex, an add-on, isn't the primary locker rooms/facilities of the arena, obviously. That's why I said not standard.

At the very best, it's "unique", but I stand by comment about visiting team comfort. Going to a college arena alone plays into that, then everything else that goes with it. Even visiting teams said it was "unlike any other in the NHL." Hence, not the/a "standard" setup for them.

That path from dressing room to the ice is about the equivalent to a day's exercise for me.

 

[PredsHead]

Sorry for the late reply, I wanted to double check the NHL Constitution and By-Laws before responding. I find no mention of a non-relocation requirement in either document.

We know the NHL has such a policy, but it’s not codified in those documents. In my opinion more likely it’s a default BoG ownership transfer policy the league/BoG can electively choose whether to apply or not on each ownership transfer.

It makes a lot of sense the NHL wouldn’t want such a policy in the By-Laws. The NHL cannot unilaterally alter or ignore the By-Laws. Would require PA approval or be subject to grievance.

Yeah I believe you are correct. I looked as well and cannot find any reference to a required period before a franchise can be moved in either document. About the only thing I could really find on Google oddly enough was from the bankruptcy and it basically says the 7 year period is part of the consent agreement a purchaser would sign upon buying a team. Looks like the only time any part of those agreements goes public is as evidence in a court case so I couldn't find out a whole lot about what else is in the the agreement or how often there is variation in them.

Here is the link that came from in case anyone wanted to wander down memory lane....https://www.cmaxxsports.com/Misc/NHL Constitution.pdf

 

[mouser]

Yeah I believe you are correct. I looked as well and cannot find any reference to a required period before a franchise can be moved in either document. About the only thing I could really find on Google oddly enough was from the bankruptcy and it basically says the 7 year period is part of the consent agreement a purchaser would sign upon buying a team. Looks like the only time any part of those agreements goes public is as evidence in a court case so I couldn't find out a whole lot about what else is in the the agreement or how often there is variation in them.

View attachment 713332

Here is the link that came from in case anyone wanted to wander down memory lane....https://www.cmaxxsports.com/Misc/NHL Constitution.pdf

It was reported that Balsillie backed out of his bid to purchase the Pittsburgh Penguins in Oct 2006 after the NHL/BoG included a “last minute” non-relocation Consent Agreement. However that claim was from Balsillie’s side, and I haven’t seen a direct NHL comment in response. So possibly a biased view from only one party.

Moyes‘ Sep 2006 ownership transfer of the Coyotes included a Consent Agreement.

Whether the 7 year Consent Agreement was standard or not for ownership transfer prior to 2006, I think we can all agree in hindsight the League was correct to require one for Balsillie and the Penguins.

 

[KevFu]

Sorry for the late reply, I wanted to double check the NHL Constitution and By-Laws before responding. I find no mention of a non-relocation requirement in either document.

We know the NHL has such a policy, but it’s not codified in those documents. In my opinion more likely it’s a default BoG ownership transfer policy the league/BoG can electively choose whether to apply or not on each ownership transfer.

It makes a lot of sense the NHL wouldn’t want such a policy in the By-Laws. The NHL cannot unilaterally alter or ignore the By-Laws. Would require PA approval or be subject to grievance.

Yeah, there's no chance that would be in the by-laws, because it's really not necessary for most sales.

Arena leases are with teams, not owners. The owner signed, but the next owner is obligated for fullfill it. So the only teams who NEED to have the 7-year no-relocate clause as a condition of ownership transfer are teams with less than seven years on their lease (and not all teams in that situation need it either). It's really designed more as a PR thing to settle fans down and restore faith in the franchise.

And the NHL probably couldn't put that in to an Arizona sale anyway, because the Coyotes arena lease was part of the bankruptcy court process (the whole reason the NHL says you can't file for bankruptcy without league permission), and in a state of flux. The NHL can't give an owner a legally binding 7-year no relocation clause, when the team could need to move if the lease holder kicks them out (like in Atlanta).

The league CAN, and leagues DO put clauses into team purchases -- like we'll only approve your purchase of the team IF -- with the most notable example being that for his purchase of the Houston Astros to be approved, the new owner had to agree to switch from the NL Central to the AL West.

 

[jonathan613]

Another owner of what? An NHL team? It was the Bettman-National-Hockey-League that ripped off Glendale to the tune of FIFTY million dollars. Having a new owner, or a new team, or a new whatever won't make a bit of difference to Glendale if it reeks of NHL scent.


Yep, and Glendale will like say "Give us back the $50 million you extorted and then we'll be ready to talk business."

Noted. It seems apparent that for the coyotes to work in arizona, the NHL is clearly going to have to eat a lot of crow.

 

[Ernie]

Yep, and Glendale will like say "Give us back the $50 million you extorted and then we'll be ready to talk business."

It was more like $80 million, I believe. 2 years @ $25m and then around $15m per year under the long term agreement.

 

[Lions67]

It was more like $80 million, I believe. 2 years @ $25m and then around $15m per year under the long term agreement.

Yep.
It bothers me a bit that the Yotes fans love to blame Glendale now.
Glendale did all they could to save this team, even being extorted by the league.
Glendale owes no apology in this at all.
And now we are seeing tue blame shift to Tempe.
It’s rather sad

 

[Tawnos]

Yep.
It bothers me a bit that the Yotes fans love to blame Glendale now.
Glendale did all they could to save this team, even being extorted by the league.
Glendale owes no apology in this at all.
And now we are seeing tue blame shift to Tempe.
It’s rather sad

What I will never understand is why anyone thinks it’s one or the other. The team deserves blame. The league deserves blame. And yes, Glendale deserves its share too.

 

[Stumbledore]

What I will never understand is why anyone thinks it’s one or the other. The team deserves blame. The league deserves blame. And yes, Glendale deserves its share too.

I think 100% of the blame falls on Gary Bettman, but of course that says more about me than it does about Glendale. Or the Coyotes. Or Tempe. Or...

 

[Ernie]

What I will never understand is why anyone thinks it’s one or the other. The team deserves blame. The league deserves blame. And yes, Glendale deserves its share too.

How does Glendale deserve blame? Were they supposed to keep paying $15m per year to keep the team there? Were they supposed to turn a blind eye when Meruelo repeatedly refused to pay his bills?

 

[aqib]

How does Glendale deserve blame? Were they supposed to keep paying $15m per year to keep the team there? Were they supposed to turn a blind eye when Meruelo repeatedly refused to pay his bills?

I still wonder what would have happened to the Thrashers franchise if Glendale voted against the second payment.

 

[Stumbledore]

I still wonder what would have happened to the Thrashers franchise if Glendale voted against the second payment.

Life is full of those "what would have happened if" moments.

Many, many years ago, I was crossing Balliol College when a sudden downpour began, catching me unprepared with my umbrella rolled up in my briefcase. I rushed to the nearest building and stepped into a large, ornate doorway to take shelter and unfurl my brolly. This startled a couple at the far side of the alcove, who were wrapped around each other like snakes with half their clothing askew. They disengaged, the man looked at his watch, swore, kissed the girl and dashed into the building.

I pointedly looked out at the rain as the girl composed herself and the storm lessened as quickly as it arose. She stepped over to me and in a rather imperious voice said, "Are you going to be a gentleman and offer to share your umbrella?" Four years later, we married and this year will celebrate our 52nd anniversary.

I still wonder what would have happened if the sky hadn't suddenly opened while I was passing by that ancient building.

 

[Tawnos]

How does Glendale deserve blame? Were they supposed to keep paying $15m per year to keep the team there? Were they supposed to turn a blind eye when Meruelo repeatedly refused to pay his bills?

Glendale’s part in all of this goes further back than Meruelo and you know it.

The city is responsible for its own actions, which largely fall under the category of “enabling” but sometimes include their own underhanded machinations.

 

[Ernie]

Glendale’s part in all of this goes further back than Meruelo and you know it.

The city is responsible for its own actions, which largely fall under the category of “enabling” but sometimes include their own underhanded machinations.

Yes, Glendale is responsible for all its misspending. They made their decisions. Enabling though? How so?

And what kind of underhanded machinations did they do?

 

[MNNumbers]

Yes, Glendale is responsible for all its misspending. They made their decisions. Enabling though? How so?

And what kind of underhanded machinations did they do?

There have been reports of underhanded vote trading which led to the 4-3 vote to approve the IceArizona AMF.

Some would say that, having done so, it was a bit underhanded 2 years later to cancel the contract on a legal loophole. (I don't personally agree with this idea, but some say it is the case.)

 

[Stumbledore]

There have been reports of underhanded vote trading which led to the 4-3 vote to approve the IceArizona AMF.

Is there such a thing as overhanded vote trading?

And, yes, if it isn't obvious, I opened the Laphroaig earlier than usual today.

 

[aqib]

Life is full of those "what would have happened if" moments.

Many, many years ago, I was crossing Balliol College when a sudden downpour began, catching me unprepared with my umbrella rolled up in my briefcase. I rushed to the nearest building and stepped into a large, ornate doorway to take shelter and unfurl my brolly. This startled a couple at the far side of the alcove, who were wrapped around each other like snakes with half their clothing askew. They disengaged, the man looked at his watch, swore, kissed the girl and dashed into the building.

I pointedly looked out at the rain as the girl composed herself and the storm lessened as quickly as it arose. She stepped over to me and in a rather imperious voice said, "Are you going to be a gentleman and offer to share your umbrella?" Four years later, we married and this year will celebrate our 52nd anniversary.

I still wonder what would have happened if the sky hadn't suddenly opened while I was passing by that ancient building.

Ok now I have to know. Who was that other guy and was this the reason they broke up?

 

[aqib]

Yes, Glendale is responsible for all its misspending. They made their decisions. Enabling though? How so?

And what kind of underhanded machinations did they do?

One of the Councilors who was always against the deal Chiavara (probably spelled his name wrong) flipped his vote at the last minute. Rumor is he agreed to vote for it in exchange for Gary Sherwood (who was always in favor of it) voting in favor of something he wanted passed.

 

[Fatass]

One of the Councilors who was always against the deal Chiavara (probably spelled his name wrong) flipped his vote at the last minute. Rumor is he agreed to vote for it in exchange for Gary Sherwood (who was always in favor of it) voting in favor of something he wanted passed.

So the Coyotes were a political thing? Was the vote one of those left wing v right wing things we read about up here? If so that’s just so sad. The area could have had a new rink and a club to cheer for. Now, they’re left with a garbage dump and ?

 

[Llama19]

Are the latest off-ice developments in Arizona a problem for Coyotes' players?

Arena instability and questionable social media tactics may not be helping.

Source: www.12news.com/article/sports/locked-on/lo-arizona/coyotes-show/latest-off-ice-developments-in-arizona-problem-for-coyotes-players/535-dc5479d3-1a89-4d7f-982d-e06b3ab08625

 

[Stumbledore]

Ok now I have to know. Who was that other guy and was this the reason they broke up?

You missed the point. Everyone's life is full of "what would have happened if" points. Some are more significant than others but you only find that out when you look back from the future. And some of your biggest life-changing points come from very minor incidents. The same thing applies to hockey teams.

The other guy was her boyfriend. She was intrigued with me, we struck up a friendship and after a few weeks she quit sleeping with him and started dating me. The reason for the switch was "you're more interesting than him". (Full disclosure: the girl was 6 feet tall and I'm 6'2" and despite her decades of denials I think that was also a factor.) And it all began only because of a sudden cloud burst.

I wonder how many "what if?" points have the Coyotes had and what insignificant incident might have pushed the team into success in the Valley, with an avid fan base, a large TV audience, and a demand for a permanent arena?