CXLVI - Future of Coyotes up in air after Tempe rejects arena deal - will remain at Mullet Arena for 2023-24, looking at Fiesta Mall site in Mesa

[Ernie]

Revenue sharing is meant to help teams become competitive, not tear down a team to the studs so that the owner can turn a profit playing in front of 4000 fans.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

In unrelated referendum news, a $24 million dollar pool renovation project referendum I covered in BC and was rejected via referendum, is now back on the ballot just two years later because - shock of shocks - the pool still needs to be fixed, and the community needs amenities to attract families away from other cities/towns.

The new price tag - $35 million.

There is a danger to voting these kinds of projects down, that I think the public is at times unaware of.

 

[KevFu]

Revenue sharing is meant to help teams become competitive, not tear down a team to the studs so that the owner can turn a profit playing in front of 4000 fans.

Revenue sharing is really meant to guarantee the players CAN get their percentage of revenues via payrolls, because teams will spend in accordance with their revenues, but to guarantee the owners combined to pay the players what they agreed to in the CBA, the bottom revenue teams need help getting to the league average.

The rich teams are profiting a lot more by being capped (and get a built in excuse to their fans for not dominating the league when they're the richest team), so they help out.

It would be better if it was more of an All For One, One For All system, where teams all put in like 40% of their revenues and everyone gets a 32-way split of that cash (plus the national/league-wide loot), instead of this Robin Hood system where the rich pay the poor and fans get resentful.

It's also meant for fairness. Two teams play each other, fans pay to see it and money is created. Without your opponent, there's no game. Because all this started before massive media companies with massive reach, it was decided that home ticket sales would balance each other out. Wasn't worth the hassle. Now it's necessary because the product is being sold to the entire region and beyond via TV/internet. It really should be 50/50, but since the biggest markets in sports got teams first, they don't wanna give up that advantage.

 

[Ernie]

Revenue sharing is really meant to guarantee the players CAN get their percentage of revenues via payrolls, because teams will spend in accordance with their revenues, but to guarantee the owners combined to pay the players what they agreed to in the CBA, the bottom revenue teams need help getting to the league average.

The rich teams are profiting a lot more by being capped (and get a built in excuse to their fans for not dominating the league when they're the richest team), so they help out.

It would be better if it was more of an All For One, One For All system, where teams all put in like 40% of their revenues and everyone gets a 32-way split of that cash (plus the national/league-wide loot), instead of this Robin Hood system where the rich pay the poor and fans get resentful.

It's also meant for fairness. Two teams play each other, fans pay to see it and money is created. Without your opponent, there's no game. Because all this started before massive media companies with massive reach, it was decided that home ticket sales would balance each other out. Wasn't worth the hassle. Now it's necessary because the product is being sold to the entire region and beyond via TV/internet. It really should be 50/50, but since the biggest markets in sports got teams first, they don't wanna give up that advantage.

No, revenue sharing is meant to create competitive balance. The rich give to the poor so they can field a quality roster and win some games, allowing them to grow their fanbase. The cap floor is meant to ensure that poor teams can't just pocket that money, but the Coyotes have circumvented that with LTIR salaries.

What you are proposing is functionally no different than the current system. The rich would still be giving to the poor.

 

[KevFu]

No, revenue sharing is meant to create competitive balance. The rich give to the poor so they can field a quality roster and win some games, allowing them to grow their fanbase. The cap floor is meant to ensure that poor teams can't just pocket that money, but the Coyotes have circumvented that with LTIR salaries.

What you are proposing is functionally no different than the current system. The rich would still be giving to the poor.

Revenue sharing accomplishes both, but it's not contractually "necessary" to have competitive balance, and it IS contractually necessary that the teams pay the players 50% of HRR.

Fielding a quality roster and building a fan base isn't part of the CBA. 50% of HRR is.

 

[KevFu]

What you are proposing is functionally no different than the current system. The rich would still be giving to the poor.

The problem I have with the current system is that hockey is really the only sport where people talk about "The Rich Giving to the Poor" like this.

In NFL and NBA, it never comes up. In MLB it only comes up because some teams aren't even trying with their payrolls, which is annoying when we all know they're getting $135 million from the central revenue fund.

Hockey is the only sport where people talk about who pays in and who takes out.

The visiting team is HALF THE PRODUCT.

 

[Yukon Joe]

The problem I have with the current system is that hockey is really the only sport where people talk about "The Rich Giving to the Poor" like this.

In NFL and NBA, it never comes up. In MLB it only comes up because some teams aren't even trying with their payrolls, which is annoying when we all know they're getting $135 million from the central revenue fund.

Hockey is the only sport where people talk about who pays in and who takes out.

The visiting team is HALF THE PRODUCT.

How is that a problem with the system? Sounds like you more have an issue with how it's discussed.

NHL's revenue sharing, MLB's luxury tax, and NFL's "equal sharing of national media rights" are all different systems, but all have the same basic effect of transferring funds from bigger market teams to smaller market teams.

 

[Ernie]

The problem I have with the current system is that hockey is really the only sport where people talk about "The Rich Giving to the Poor" like this.

In NFL and NBA, it never comes up. In MLB it only comes up because some teams aren't even trying with their payrolls, which is annoying when we all know they're getting $135 million from the central revenue fund.

Hockey is the only sport where people talk about who pays in and who takes out.

The visiting team is HALF THE PRODUCT.

Well I don't know the idiosyncrasies around the "Business of Basketball" and "Business of Football" online discussion but it's essentially all revenue sharing with a different label.

The point is that the Coyotes are not keeping their end of the deal with the product they are putting on the ice.

Revenue sharing accomplishes both, but it's not contractually "necessary" to have competitive balance, and it IS contractually necessary that the teams pay the players 50% of HRR.

Fielding a quality roster and building a fan base isn't part of the CBA. 50% of HRR is.

The stated goal of revenue sharing and the salary cap has been competitive parity.

 

[Llama19]

EV leaders welcome Coyotes – without any incentives

To quote:

"John Lewis, the former Gilbert mayor and president/CEO of the PHX East Valley Partnership noted that the Coyotes are members of his organization, which represents a broad swatch of business, nonprofit and and government leaders in the region.

“We are anxious to help them in any way possible,” Lewis said. “Our regional advocacy role is to work with our local city/town leaders to support them as they take the lead in discussions with the Coyotes.”

Lewis said that while Gutierrez in March gave a full presentation of the Tempe proposal to his board, “We have not had specific discussions with the Coyotes since the announcement of the election results.”

But while some East Valley communities are open to receiving a proposal from the Coyotes, they were cool to the idea of government incentives and public-private partnerships."

Source: www.gilbertsunnews.com/news/ev-leaders-welcome-coyotes-without-any-incentives/article_c48075c2-fc0f-11ed-8931-9b889ed1032c.html

 

[oldunclehue]

EV leaders welcome Coyotes – without any incentives

To quote:

"John Lewis, the former Gilbert mayor and president/CEO of the PHX East Valley Partnership noted that the Coyotes are members of his organization, which represents a broad swatch of business, nonprofit and and government leaders in the region.

“We are anxious to help them in any way possible,” Lewis said. “Our regional advocacy role is to work with our local city/town leaders to support them as they take the lead in discussions with the Coyotes.”

Lewis said that while Gutierrez in March gave a full presentation of the Tempe proposal to his board, “We have not had specific discussions with the Coyotes since the announcement of the election results.”

But while some East Valley communities are open to receiving a proposal from the Coyotes, they were cool to the idea of government incentives and public-private partnerships."

Source: www.gilbertsunnews.com/news/ev-leaders-welcome-coyotes-without-any-incentives/article_c48075c2-fc0f-11ed-8931-9b889ed1032c.html

I can't imagine any NHL team not expecting some form of incentives to invest in a city/area. So East Valley is open to the team in the area...but without incentives. Likely a non-starter for ownership.

After reading the article....fairly discouraging prospects in most communities. Each has indicated they don't have public land to be used like Tempe had. They all indicated it would have to be through private sales thus making the land quite expensive....

The Fiesta Mall area seems like the best option, but the area and mall is privately owned therefore would require A LOT of money to buy. 80 acres of business land near two highways as well as the current buildings on the property won't be cheap. Government also said it won't get involved.

Doors are closing in the area....not good.

 

[Ernie]

I can't imagine any NHL team not expecting some form of incentives to invest in a city/area. So East Valley is open to the team in the area...but without incentives. Likely a non-starter for ownership.

After reading the article....fairly discouraging prospects in most communities. Each has indicated they don't have public land to be used like Tempe had. They all indicated it would have to be through private sales thus making the land quite expensive....

The Fiesta Mall area seems like the best option, but the area and mall is privately owned therefore would require A LOT of money to buy. 80 acres of business land near two highways as well as the current buildings on the property won't be cheap. Government also said it won't get involved.

Doors are closing in the area....not good.

But but but I was told that Tempe was selling the land at fair value and the project was being privately financed.

And yet now you say that public financing is needed for any arena project to be viable. I feel like I was being lied to!

 

[Llama19]

Ortega ices idea of hockey in Scottsdale

To quote:

"Mayor David Ortega said he loves having the Coyotes skating in Scottsdale – as an unofficial partner at the modest Scottsdale Ice Den rink, which is hardly NHL-sized.

“The Coyotes have a great philanthropic network in the Valley, and I love the vibe at the Ice Den,” Ortega said.

“However, I have not received any official or unofficial contact from the Coyotes organization to nest another Zamboni in Scottsdale.”

Hockey fans have speculated that the Coyotes might look to the tribal communities in to strike a deal on an arena.

The Salt River Pima-Maricopa Indian Community is centrally located between Scottsdale and Mesa, and is currently home to Salt River Fields at Talking Stick, the spring training venue for the Arizona Diamondbacks and Colorado Rockies.

But Bernice Cota-Gann, director of community relations for the community, said the tribe is not exploring an arena.

“We are always open to new ideas that can expand development that will enhance the quality of life for our members, community and the state, but at this time, there are no conversations about sports facility development within the Salt River Pima-Maricopa Indian Community,” she said."

Source: www.scottsdale.org/city_news/ortega-ices-idea-of-hockey-in-scottsdale/article_3fb5ea7c-fcd5-11ed-8a97-3728af667314.html

 

[oldunclehue]

Ortega ices idea of hockey in Scottsdale

To quote:

"Mayor David Ortega said he loves having the Coyotes skating in Scottsdale – as an unofficial partner at the modest Scottsdale Ice Den rink, which is hardly NHL-sized.

“The Coyotes have a great philanthropic network in the Valley, and I love the vibe at the Ice Den,” Ortega said.

“However, I have not received any official or unofficial contact from the Coyotes organization to nest another Zamboni in Scottsdale.”

Hockey fans have speculated that the Coyotes might look to the tribal communities in to strike a deal on an arena.

The Salt River Pima-Maricopa Indian Community is centrally located between Scottsdale and Mesa, and is currently home to Salt River Fields at Talking Stick, the spring training venue for the Arizona Diamondbacks and Colorado Rockies.

But Bernice Cota-Gann, director of community relations for the community, said the tribe is not exploring an arena.

“We are always open to new ideas that can expand development that will enhance the quality of life for our members, community and the state, but at this time, there are no conversations about sports facility development within the Salt River Pima-Maricopa Indian Community,” she said."

Source: www.scottsdale.org/city_news/ortega-ices-idea-of-hockey-in-scottsdale/article_3fb5ea7c-fcd5-11ed-8a97-3728af667314.html

Be curious what @TheLegend has in regards to insight here. I mean its been over a week and it appears no one has heard from the Coyotes organization about interest in trying to find a Plan "B". Would we ever know if they actually want to stay there or if they are just pandering to STH and fans to ensure they have a full Mullet Arena next year?

If they were that committed to the area and ensuring things would move forward, would they not have plan "B" and Plan "C" ready to go for a proposal?

 

[JimAnchower]

But Bernice Cota-Gann, director of community relations for the community, said the tribe is not exploring an arena.

“We are always open to new ideas that can expand development that will enhance the quality of life for our members, community and the state, but at this time, there are no conversations about sports facility development within the Salt River Pima-Maricopa Indian Community,” she said."

Source: www.scottsdale.org/city_news/ortega-ices-idea-of-hockey-in-scottsdale/article_3fb5ea7c-fcd5-11ed-8a97-3728af667314.html

So that would seem to knock out a potential D-Backs ballpark as well.

No one is commenting on Mesa, which may or may not mean something.

In the wake of the Tempe vote, there were reports that the Coyotes reached out to city of Mesa staff about the possibility of an arena complex on the site of the shuttered Fiesta Mall.

Neither the city, the Coyotes nor the two current Fiesta Mall owners would comment on whether there have been communications about using the mall for an arena.

 

[Mightygoose]

Seems like allot of parties either not interested or haven't spoke with the team.

Gonna be tight to get a building solution in short order

 

[Fish on The Sand]

In unrelated referendum news, a $24 million dollar pool renovation project referendum I covered in BC and was rejected via referendum, is now back on the ballot just two years later because - shock of shocks - the pool still needs to be fixed, and the community needs amenities to attract families away from other cities/towns.

The new price tag - $35 million.

There is a danger to voting these kinds of projects down, that I think the public is at times unaware of.

The difference is, in that pool example, the money is going to the city.

In the Arizona example the money is going to a billionaire developer and team owner.

Public funding for sports venues is a well established scam and the more these referendums get voted down the better.

 

[Shwan]

In unrelated referendum news, a $24 million dollar pool renovation project referendum I covered in BC and was rejected via referendum, is now back on the ballot just two years later because - shock of shocks - the pool still needs to be fixed, and the community needs amenities to attract families away from other cities/towns.

The new price tag - $35 million.

There is a danger to voting these kinds of projects down, that I think the public is at times unaware of.

It's hard to characterize the Tempe site as some unwanted ticking timebomb garbage patch when the team and city secretly developed the deal for almost a year and then in the span of about 90 days the city released an engineering report saying the site was suitable for private development (June), released the request for proposal in which only the Coyotes could respond to (July), and have the Coyotes unsurprisingly be the only respondent when the RFP window closed (September).

 

[KevFu]

How is that a problem with the system? Sounds like you more have an issue with how it's discussed.

NHL's revenue sharing, MLB's luxury tax, and NFL's "equal sharing of national media rights" are all different systems, but all have the same basic effect of transferring funds from bigger market teams to smaller market teams.

Yeah, because it's necessary. And you're right that it's entirely possible the SYSTEM the NHL uses isn't what's CAUSING the resentment, but the resentment exists. If tweaking the system so that it isn't these teams pay, these teams take... to EVERYONE PAYS, EVERYONE TAKES, and the dollar amounts put in are all different; it MIGHT reduce resentment. If it doesn't, then the resentment is just for completely different reasons.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

It's hard to characterize the Tempe site as some unwanted ticking timebomb garbage patch when the team and city secretly developed the deal for almost a year and then in the span of about 90 days the city released an engineering report saying the site was suitable for private development (June), released the request for proposal in which only the Coyotes could respond to (July), and have the Coyotes unsurprisingly be the only respondent when the RFP window closed (September).

Do you really think a developer who puts (for example) a bunch of housing on that land isn't gonna ask for tax breaks?

They'll probably ask for breaks, and for the city to cover site cleanup too.

My point is some kind of project will end up on this space, and there will be a favorable deal given to the developer. It's how the game is played.

Or I guess it could be a former landfill for the rest of its life.

 

[Shwan]

Do you really think a developer who puts (for example) a bunch of housing on that land isn't gonna ask for tax breaks?

They'll probably ask for breaks, and for the city to cover site cleanup too.

My point is some kind of project will end up on this space, and there will be a favorable deal given to the developer. It's how the game is played.

Or I guess it could be a former landfill for the rest of its life.

Or it could be highly desirable piece of real estate in a few years and developers will pay most of not all of the remediation costs out of pocket like what happened with Tempe marketplace?

Vestar shouldered much of the $30 million cleanup costs, but $1 million was contributed in the form of a grant from the Brownfield Economic Development Initiative, which U.S. Congressman J.D. Hayworth fought to secure. U.S. Housing and Urban Development also provided a $7 million loan.

You are right though, that's how that game is played. But there's a difference between a developer taking the GPLET and going on their way and pissing on the backs of constituents, calling it rain trying to get your development passed in a vote.

No one in North Tempe is going to have remorse for telling Alex Meruelo he can't have his $1.8B luxury development, especially when there's another $1.8B luxury development already being built right down the street.

 

[Lions67]

Breaking News on CNN right now.

From the news article. I copied and pasted this.

“Arizona officials announced Thursday the state will no longer grant certifications for new developments within the Phoenix area, as groundwater rapidly disappears amid years of water overuse and climate change-driven drought.”

This can’t be helpful in keeping the team.

 

[oldunclehue]

Breaking News on CNN right now.

From the news article. I copied and pasted this.

“Arizona officials announced Thursday the state will no longer grant certifications for new developments within the Phoenix area, as groundwater rapidly disappears amid years of water overuse and climate change-driven drought.”

This can’t be helpful in keeping the team.

It says development can be approved if the developer can prove a 100 year guaranteed water source not from ground water. Not sure how that works in a desert.

Another hurdle I am sure won't be cheap AT ALL for any plans of building in the area.

 

[Stumbledore]

Breaking News on CNN right now.

From the news article. I copied and pasted this.

“Arizona officials announced Thursday the state will no longer grant certifications for new developments within the Phoenix area, as groundwater rapidly disappears amid years of water overuse and climate change-driven drought.”

This can’t be helpful in keeping the team.

Yeah, there's a lengthy article in the Washington Post going into all the gory details. And that business with the Saudis growing their alfalfa in Arizona to ship back home would be hilarious were it not so horrifying. The future looks dry and dusty for the Valley of the Sun.

It's time to sell my properties down there while the golf courses are still green and people are still allowed to water their lawns.

 

[stealth1]

Yeah, because it's necessary. And you're right that it's entirely possible the SYSTEM the NHL uses isn't what's CAUSING the resentment, but the resentment exists. If tweaking the system so that it isn't these teams pay, these teams take... to EVERYONE PAYS, EVERYONE TAKES, and the dollar amounts put in are all different; it MIGHT reduce resentment. If it doesn't, then the resentment is just for completely different reasons.

It's not hard to see why there is so much resentment. For me what did it is instead of trying to be competitive they load up the team with a bunch of LTIR contracts. IMO that's not right. I would love to see the league not allow trading of LTIR contracts

 

[Shwan]

It says development can be approved if the developer can prove a 100 year guaranteed water source not from ground water. Not sure how that works in a desert.

Another hurdle I am sure won't be cheap AT ALL for any plans of building in the area.

The developer needs to buy Water offsets/rights and transfer them to the municipality they're building in.

Mesa has like 4 data centers being built right now, in addition to a luxury shopping district that will have an artificial beach.

The largest facility, the currently under construction Google campus, will consume one million gallons a day to start, and is allowed to increase that to four million as the site builds out.

To meet that demand, the company will receive half of its water from the Colorado River, which faces droughts. In 2019, lawmakers unveiled a contingency plan to try to get states that rely on the river to take voluntary conservation measures. The other half comes from on-site wells and water rights from ground and surface water.

Everyone knows these "rights" are going to mean squat when things get dire but we all get to pretend it's okay for the next 5 years at least