CXLVI - Future of Coyotes up in air after Tempe rejects arena deal - will remain at Mullet Arena for 2023-24, looking at Fiesta Mall site in Mesa

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Bucky_Hoyt

Registered User
Dec 11, 2005
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There are paths forward for Phoenix hockey. Sadly I don't think they involve the Coyotes. I'm in the "region needs a reset" camp. I just don't think you can fix this in an offseason, and the Coyotes are out of time.

You need to come back in with a solid plan and a stadium that is literally already being built that will be both enjoyable and affordable for everyone involved. I don't think you can do that on the fly. After 10 years of planning, though, it could probably be done and be successful.

One of the lessons learned from the debacle of the Coyotes is that it is a whole HELL of a lot easier to succeed if you plan first, move second, then if you try to do it the other way. The legacy of Arizona hockey is that "we'll figure it out as we go along" is not actually a substitute for a viable plan.

Unfortunately-unfortunately there aren't a lot of places where you can just plug and play a team as troubled as the Coyotes either. You can't just plunk a team down for a few years in one place with every expectation of moving them again. The fans won't wear that, and I don't blame them. The Milwaukee Braves and KC A's in baseball are both pretty strong evidence of this. if the team does move, it's going to be to a new hopefully-permanent home. Which is why they're probably not moving this offseason and they will continue to hemorrhage money and goodwill in the short term.

This also removes a lot of otherwise intriguing options whose arena situation would be best described as "makeshift." This franchise has had nearly a quarter century of makeshift. Unless a building already exists or is literally going up as we speak, the town is probably not in consideration.

I don't envy the people who have to untangle this mess. The badwill in Glendale and the greater Phoenix area says the team can't stay, but it's not going to be easy to find a place for such a terribly run franchise to go either. Clean slates are sometimes hard to come by after all.

I agree with a lot of this. Possibly another shot in 10-plus years as seems to be the trend with Atlanta. Honestly, the franchise itself may be too tarnished to flip over to another market at this point.

With another poster's suggestion of folding the team, maybe this isn't so far-fetched. Especially if the NHL can immediately grant an expansion franchise.

Disperse the roster (and shitty LTIR contracts) which does sting but stings all 31 teams a little vs. 1 team a whole lot. Then cash in on an inflated 'expansion fee' and set the new team up with the template that's been used with LV and SEA.

Give the 1979-1996 history and records to Winnipeg.

It's not apples to apples, but the MLS did something similar a couple of times. First with San Jose moving to Houston and then quickly returning 2 years later. They did it again with Chivas folding and LAFC being announced 3 days later. LAFC did start play 4 years after that announcement but set a debut season wins record with a brand new stadium and won their first championship in their 5th season.

In terms of markets for the NHL, there certainly are options as other posters have shared. Even counting the 'makeshift' venues, we're talking about close to 25. And, aside from 2 which are in 'traditional' locations, most of these metros are easily over 1m people:

Portland, Sacramento, Oakland, San Diego, SLC, OKC, Tulsa, Austin, SA, Houston, KC, NOLA, Milwaukee, Indy, Cincy, Cleveland, Hamilton, QC, Hartford, Baltimore, Norfolk/HR/VB, Charlotte, Atlanta, Jacksonville, and Orlando.

The only issue is whether an ownership group wants to invest. A few names have been mentioned and I am sure that list grows once Ottawa is sold.
 
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Headshot77

Bad Photoshopper
Feb 15, 2015
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Anyone who talks about contracting a franchise is not in tune with reality. The NHL would never ever allow that to happen, as it would bludgeon franchise values. Why would Meruelo let his $300 million team evaporate into nothing when people are lining up around the block to buy the Sens?

The NHL would rather play in Saskatoon than contract a franchise.
 

TheGreenTBer

i got the world up my ass
Apr 30, 2021
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Anyone who talks about contracting a franchise is not in tune with reality. The NHL would never ever allow that to happen, as it would bludgeon franchise values. Why would Meruelo let his $300 million team evaporate into nothing when people are lining up around the block to buy the Sens?

The NHL would rather play in Saskatoon than contract a franchise.
Yup. Contraction is not even close to being on the table. Not going to happen.
 

Smirnov2Chistov

Fire Greg Cronin!
Jan 21, 2011
5,631
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Massachusetts
I hate to be speculative, but I wonder if they are holding off and working behind the scenes with Matthews - and try to draw the interest with him

I could've sworn I read an article somewhere in the past that he was 'buddy-buddy' with some of the newer Arizona staff..?
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
11,502
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Anyone who talks about contracting a franchise is not in tune with reality. The NHL would never ever allow that to happen, as it would bludgeon franchise values. Why would Meruelo let his $300 million team evaporate into nothing when people are lining up around the block to buy the Sens?

The NHL would rather play in Saskatoon than contract a franchise.
USA is running out of money, your reply.
 

Llama19

Registered User
Jan 19, 2013
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Coyotes might want Scottsdale, but Scottsdale doesn't want them

To quote:

"Arena proposal dead before arrival?

The Arizona Republic interviewed each of Scottsdale's seven City Council members to find out whether they would be amenable to such a move.

Three councilmembers said they were skeptical but gave different variations of 'maybe.' The other four gave answers that were as close to "no" as they could get without fully rejecting the idea outright, signaling that a majority would not welcome in the hockey team.

The Arizona Republic interviewed each of Scottsdale's seven City Council members to find out whether they would be amenable to such a move.

Three councilmembers said they were skeptical but gave different variations of 'maybe.' The other four gave answers that were as close to "no" as they could get without fully rejecting the idea outright, signaling that a majority would not welcome in the hockey team."

Source (Paywall): www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/scottsdale/2023/05/20/coyotes-might-want-scottsdale-but-scottsdale-doesnt-want-them/70238376007/
 

PredsHead

Registered User
Nov 14, 2018
552
487
Been thinking about this a bit more after l saw Pierre LeBrun do an interview on Overdrive and he mentioned that the league knew the vote was either going to be close or that the Coyotes could lose (around 4:00 mark). Darren Dreger says the same thing in the newest episode of his podcast too (around 20:00 mark). That is exactly the opposite of what Craig Morgan and other reported, which was that both the team and the league were very, very confident going in and were shocked by the results.





You also just happened to have the Utah Jazz owner meet with the NHL commissioner a few weeks before the commissioner came to Tempe for the press conference. (https://kslsports.com/500063/report-nhl-very-interested-in-jazz-owner-ryan-smith). Then the Jazz owner sent a Tweet that it is "In motion" to bring the NHL just a week or so after that press conference.


I highly doubt that timing is all just coincidental, could Bettman have been trying to use Utah as wake up call to Meruelo to try do more for the vote? Perhaps Bettman was trying to find someone for Fertitta to bid against in case there is a relocation?
 

PredsHead

Registered User
Nov 14, 2018
552
487
Coyotes might want Scottsdale, but Scottsdale doesn't want them

To quote:

"Arena proposal dead before arrival?

The Arizona Republic interviewed each of Scottsdale's seven City Council members to find out whether they would be amenable to such a move.

Three councilmembers said they were skeptical but gave different variations of 'maybe.' The other four gave answers that were as close to "no" as they could get without fully rejecting the idea outright, signaling that a majority would not welcome in the hockey team.

The Arizona Republic interviewed each of Scottsdale's seven City Council members to find out whether they would be amenable to such a move.

Three councilmembers said they were skeptical but gave different variations of 'maybe.' The other four gave answers that were as close to "no" as they could get without fully rejecting the idea outright, signaling that a majority would not welcome in the hockey team."

Source (Paywall): www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/scottsdale/2023/05/20/coyotes-might-want-scottsdale-but-scottsdale-doesnt-want-them/70238376007/
So that pretty much leaves Mesa, downtown with the Suns and perhaps something on reservation land as possible places to stay in Arizona? Would Scottsdale saying no also affect how the reservations around Scottsdale would look at this? Not sure if Scottsdale would still need to be involved in anything on the reservation land, but from an outside prospective there could be some tricky stuff with utilities and road/traffic on a project that size and may require both city and tribal approval.
 

Rich Nixon

No Prior Knowledge of "Flyers"
Jul 11, 2006
15,260
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I agree with a lot of this. Possibly another shot in 10-plus years as seems to be the trend with Atlanta. Honestly, the franchise itself may be too tarnished to flip over to another market at this point.

lol what. no. it's one of 32 slots in the highest level of professional hockey. hell, the Senators might go for $1b, and there are a surprising number of ownership groups out there willing to throw big dollars on an expansion team. this one would likely be cheaper than that. you wouldn't get to build the player personnel from the ground-up via expansion draft, but the fact that there's already a farm system in place, a skeleton corporate operation, infinite cap space and a lot of futures, that might even be more appealing than starting from scratch.

if there's no confidence that the ownership group could be trusted to move the team to a new location, who cares. the league would gladly force a sale and they'd have a solid bidding war.
 

Stumbledore

Registered User
Jan 1, 2018
2,525
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Canada
Better check with Verde Investments on that.

Seems like wherever the Coyotes try to go…… there they are. :laugh:
I own a residence in Scottsdale and some vacant lots in Goodyear, but I'm more worried about your Arizona politicians and the delusions of my property manager than I am about Verde, LOL. Still, stranger things have happened...
 
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TheLegend

"Just say it 3 times..."
Aug 30, 2009
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So that pretty much leaves Mesa, downtown with the Suns and perhaps something on reservation land as possible places to stay in Arizona? Would Scottsdale saying no also affect how the reservations around Scottsdale would look at this? Not sure if Scottsdale would still need to be involved in anything on the reservation land, but from an outside prospective there could be some tricky stuff with utilities and road/traffic on a project that size and may require both city and tribal approval.
Not sure if you can take much heed in what the local politicians are saying.

They all saw what happened in Tempe and regardless of how good the proposal was (compared to every other arena/stadium in AZ) they read voter reaction more than anything.

Even Glendale’s city manager thought it was going to pass.
 

Llama19

Registered User
Jan 19, 2013
7,298
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Outside GZ
What does the Tempe election outcome mean for Phoenix's lawsuit against its neighbor?

To quote:

"Oral arguments are tentatively scheduled for next week.

Phoenix says it hopes Tempe will take actions to resolve the dispute over housing in the now voter-rejected entertainment district with a new Coyotes arena.

Lawyers for the Coyotes did not answer if they will withdraw their request to intervene in the lawsuit.

Court records don’t even list an attorney representing Tempe in the case.

The city canceled a news conference planned for the day after the election."

Source (Audio): kjzz.org/content/1847086/what-does-tempe-election-outcome-mean-phoenixs-lawsuit-against-its-neighbor
 

KevFu

Registered User
May 22, 2009
9,409
3,597
Phoenix from Rochester via New Orleans
It was the ten hour non stop version too. :laugh:

I initially said it was a cringe, even for me, but I get it now.

Upon further review, I get it too. That's actually great PR work. They could be getting blasted with tweets mocking them over the arena deal, now they're getting blasted with tweets over THEIR TWEETS instead. They played offense instead of defense. You can't win as a PR guy in that situation, so you change the narrative.


I agree with a lot of this. Possibly another shot in 10-plus years as seems to be the trend with Atlanta. Honestly, the franchise itself may be too tarnished to flip over to another market at this point.

With another poster's suggestion of folding the team, maybe this isn't so far-fetched. Especially if the NHL can immediately grant an expansion franchise.

It's not apples to apples, but the MLS did something similar a couple of times. First with San Jose moving to Houston and then quickly returning 2 years later.

That's not "folding the team." The San Jose MLS team basically MOVED TO HOUSTON, rebranded and San Jose came back later as an expansion team, but with the old branding/history. Just like the Cleveland Browns in the NFL. No dispersal draft, no reduction in teams. This is how all moves should be done, TBH. None of this multi-city, same nickname crap (which leads to the Utah Jazz, LA Lakers and LA Dodgers, who's cities don't have Jazz, Lakes or Trolleys).

You sell the team to another owner, he gets the Coyotes assets (but not the name!) and the Coyotes return is pending an arena deal on an NHL given deadline. Ideally, it's the Nordiques coming back. They pay "half price" of an expansion team (Which helps them greatly) and if the deadline isn't met by the Coyotes, they owe the other half (A relocation fee). If the Coyotes come back, they owe half (the difference is sale price of the OG Coyotes, and the expansion fee cost; which is basically what QUE gave them upfront).
 

Boris Zubov

No relation to Sergei, Joe
May 6, 2016
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Back on the east coast
I mean, there's a pretty strong example of that on the Island.
I get the comparison, but this is an overreach. Sure they had ownership & arena parallels, but the Isles have a storied history, a robust core fanbase from a larger metro area & a built in TV deal that easily kept them afloat when they were bouncing back & forth from one building to the other.

The NHL was never serious about relocating the Isles from the area simply because of their TV contract, so the situation was never as dire as the league made it out to be. As enjoyable as it was to make fun of them when Milbury was in charge & the Spano story was playing out, the Yotes are in a different stratosphere.

Going off on a bit of a tangent, but there another thing the Isles have going for them that the Yotes are sorely lacking. They have a fanbase that grew up with them & is emotionally invested in them. It's not easily quantified, but the difference in the two markets is stark. The NYC metro & most Northeast markets are filled with rabid sports fans. People here grow up & pick a side or one is picked for them by a parent. Fandom is a big part of the culture.

Arizona is very similar to all the West Coast markets I've lived in, where the fans are way more casual & their interest rises as the teams' fortunes improve. Living out west also made me realize people didn't live & die with their teams like they do back east. Sure there are die hards in every market, but the concept of a casual fan didn't occur to me until I lived in the LA area in my early 30s. Then I watched as most of the town easily switched allegiance from the Dodgers when the Angels were about to eliminate the Yankees in 2002. I was appalled. That stuff doesn't happen back east...Met fans would never root for the Yankees to win in the playoffs. Ever. The LA fans were united in their hate of the Yanks more than the love of their teams. I found that so telling. Now I'm rambling & my point was probably lost, but I digress..
 
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Bucky_Hoyt

Registered User
Dec 11, 2005
622
55
Singapore
Upon further review, I get it too. That's actually great PR work. They could be getting blasted with tweets mocking them over the arena deal, now they're getting blasted with tweets over THEIR TWEETS instead. They played offense instead of defense. You can't win as a PR guy in that situation, so you change the narrative.




That's not "folding the team." The San Jose MLS team basically MOVED TO HOUSTON, rebranded and San Jose came back later as an expansion team, but with the old branding/history. Just like the Cleveland Browns in the NFL. No dispersal draft, no reduction in teams. This is how all moves should be done, TBH. None of this multi-city, same nickname crap (which leads to the Utah Jazz, LA Lakers and LA Dodgers, who's cities don't have Jazz, Lakes or Trolleys).

You sell the team to another owner, he gets the Coyotes assets (but not the name!) and the Coyotes return is pending an arena deal on an NHL given deadline. Ideally, it's the Nordiques coming back. They pay "half price" of an expansion team (Which helps them greatly) and if the deadline isn't met by the Coyotes, they owe the other half (A relocation fee). If the Coyotes come back, they owe half (the difference is sale price of the OG Coyotes, and the expansion fee cost; which is basically what QUE gave them upfront).

As I wrote, it's not apples to apples. The Chivas / LAFC scenario is closer to what I am suggesting. San Jose porting its records is important too just like the Cleveland Browns and I belive is also the case with the Seattle Supersonics should they get another team. If the Coyotes were disbanded, I think their '79-'96 records should go to Winnipeg.
 

Llama19

Registered User
Jan 19, 2013
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Outside GZ
Coyotes still have many potential arena solutions in Valley.

To quote:

"There are four confirmed facts that impact the future of the Coyotes in Arizona.

First, team president and CEO Xavier A. Gutierrez confirmed on Friday that the team is not for sale.

Second, a league source confirmed this week that the NHL has no desire or plan to force owner Alex Meruelo to sell the team.

Third, despite reports to the contrary, the league has set no timetable on the Coyotes finding another arena solution in the Valley (more on this later).

Fourth, the league believes that there are several viable sites in the Valley for a new arena."

Source (Craig Morgan): www.gophnx.com/2023/05/20/examining-possible-valley-sites-for-coyotes-arena/
 
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