CXLVI - Future of Coyotes up in air after Tempe rejects arena deal - will remain at Mullet Arena for 2023-24, looking at Fiesta Mall site in Mesa

[TheLegend]

The truth shall set you free….

 

[HeHateMeFrisbee]

The truth shall set you free….

shameful. Like, they are joking about something that seriously effects their fans and people that work for the team.

 

[TheLegend]

shameful. Like, they are joking about something that seriously effects their fans and people that work for the team.

If you only realized how much crap this team and its fans have had to put up with for going on 24 years…..

It’s our turn.

 

[KevFu]

We've wrestled on this issue before. I've spent enough time in the region for work to understand the traffic issues. The population is expanding & the west valley is growing rapidly. Even if that wasn't the case & the valley was easier to navigate, putting an arena in Tempe or Mesa, or even Scottsdale isn't the magic elixir the NHL & the team would have you think it is. All of these towns would've failed if they encountered the circumstances that the team in Glendale endured.

I mean, if you're saying that eliminating the traffic problem isn't going to stop an owner who siphons off tens of millions in revenue from the team into his own pocket, and runs the team into bankruptcy court on purpose, I agree with you.

But if you can't compartmentalize that the Coyotes were facing both obstacles simultaneously, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

If you can't laugh as a member of the Yotes at this, then you'll just be miserable.

I mean, I take issue with the joke itself (a Rick Roll in the year of our lord 2023?), but not the act of making a joke.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

The Seattle Mariners held a vote in the city to get out of the Kingdome. It failed. Then the State of Washington stepped in and got it done.

These aren’t non-binding referendums. But you can go government shopping sometimes.

There's always a suckered somewhere- or someone willing to take a kickback in some form lol

 

[TheLegend]

If you can't laugh as a member of the Yotes at this, then you'll just be miserable.

I mean, I take issue with the joke itself (a Rick Roll in the year of our lord 2023?), but not the act of making a joke.

It was the ten hour non stop version too.

I initially said it was a cringe, even for me, but I get it now.

 

[Ernie]

If you only realized how much crap this team and its fans have had to put up with for going on 24 years…..

It’s our turn.

Maybe it's time to stop acting like lemmings.

 

[Shwan]

So the same dude that had the option on that little part of the TED site/landfill also owns part of the mall?

Correct, the elder Ernie Garcia is president of Verde Investments.

He's also the Majority shareholder of Carvana, which has their new HQ catty-corner to that plot of land, which explains why he was holding on to that land incase Carvana needed to expand, which was planned and is happening.

So trying to characterize the situation as anything but shrewd commerical real estate practice is pretty funny.

 

[TheLegend]

Maybe it's time to stop acting like lemmings.

Or maybe it’s time to stop acting like an expert on society and live a little.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

It was the ten hour non stop version too.

I initially said it was a cringe, even for me, but I get it now.

Listen - rick roll music memes are sooooo behind.

It's all about the ADVANCED music memes these days:

 

[TheLegend]

Correct, the elder Ernie Garcia is president of Verde Investments.

He's also the Majority shareholder of Carvana, which had their HQ catty-corner to that plot of land, which explains why he was holding on to that land incase Carvana needed to expand, which was planned and is happening.

So trying to characterize the situation as anything but shrewd commerical real estate practice is pretty funny.

Yep… since Carvana is completely pulling out of Tempe next year.

(Llama also posted this up thread so this is just a repost for clarity)

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2023/04/14/carvana-tempe-hq-lease-expires.amp.html

 

[Boris Zubov]

I mean, if you're saying that eliminating the traffic problem isn't going to stop an owner who siphons off tens of millions in revenue from the team into his own pocket, and runs the team into bankruptcy court on purpose, I agree with you.

But if you can't compartmentalize that the Coyotes were facing both obstacles simultaneously, I don't know what to tell you.

The playoff run in 2012 & the last 8 games of that season were all sold out. Traffic didn't seem to be a barrier then. Building a consistent winner was a priority they could never achieve. You've lived there, you must be keenly aware how fickle that market is. I'm not saying the commute isn't an issue from either side, but the location in Glendale was manageable if the team was run competently.

 

[Shwan]

Yep… since Carvana is completely pulling out of Tempe next year.

(Llama also posted this up thread so this is just a repost for clarity)

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2023/04/14/carvana-tempe-hq-lease-expires.amp.html

while awaiting the completion of its new office buildings on the southeast corner of Rio Salado Parkway and Priest Drive. Those two buildings will be 300,000 square feet apiece.

That's surprising news to the other Carvana shareholders, someone should tell them.

 

[TheLegend]

That's surprising news to the other Carvana shareholders, someone should tell them.

So they’re moving the furniture around into a smaller location.

They also had a big chunk of the State Farm building and they backed out of that, too.

Carvana Backing Out Of 570K SF Sublease With State Farm

The addition of nearly 600K SF will further stress Atlanta's office sublease market.

www.bisnow.com

No matter how you size it. They’re are shrinking.

 

[Shwan]

So they’re moving the furniture around into a smaller location.

They also had a big chunk of the State Farm building and they backed out of that, too.

Carvana Backing Out Of 570K SF Sublease With State Farm

The addition of nearly 600K SF will further stress Atlanta's office sublease market.

www.bisnow.com

No matter how you size it. They’re are shrinking.

Yes, they're shrinking, into Rio Salado/Priest area, which is why Ernie held on to that parcel of land. In case they needed it.

So trying to insinuate or characterize Verde Investments not utilizing that parcel for X many years as a lack of business acumen is ignorant at best.

Like when you did so here:

Uh huh..... Verde Investments. same group that have sat on a chunk of the TED site for over ten years.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

DriveTime's HQ is also on that corner too, which Ernie owns. Maybe he wants to use the land for that some day?

 

[KevFu]

The playoff run in 2012 & the last 8 games of that season were all sold out. Traffic didn't seem to be a barrier then. Building a consistent winner was a priority they could never achieve. You've lived there, you must be keenly aware how fickle that market is. I'm not saying the commute isn't an issue from either side, but the location in Glendale was manageable if the team was run competently.

I generally agree with you: The fact that those games sold out show you what they're working with. They CAN build a fan base in the market that makes them a sustainable franchise and even a robust franchise.

But building a consistent winner TAKES MONEY, and when you're leaving revenue on the table by having the arena difficult for 3/8ths of the market to get to, you're not going to be able to do it unless your GM is one of the savviest people alive (like the Tampa Bay Rays!).

You're right that the ownership follies are devastating to building a consistent winner. Moyes was basically just sliding money from the Coyotes to his real estate company by renting office space (that the team didn't need) for something like $10 to $13 million per season! That's money that COULD go into payroll to be BETTER on the ice.

And once the headlines hit about Bankruptcy, you're a leper and no one wants anything to do with you. THAT'S when fans stopped going. From the time Moyes went into Bankruptcy, their attendance dropped almost 4000 instantly. And it took until 2020 to be over 14,000 again (TWELVE YEARS). When the team got the Glendale arena deal, they signed a 30-year lease running through 2033. The lease was only up for renegotiation because of the bankruptcy.

That's why we're in this mess now. It's not the market, it's not commute, it's Jerry Moyes running everything into the ground.

But that's why the Tempe deal would have been the "magic elixir." Because it's no longer a "What now?" Saga that's been going on since Moyes took over. They'd have a building they own. It would be accessible to all. It would only be the ebbs and flows of winning percentage.

At worst, they'd be Florida and at best they'd be Dallas. But now they're homeless.

 

[GKJ]

I really think that in 5 years we'll be looking at a 36 teams league.

Remember : there are only 27 US teams in the NHL right now (while other leagues have 30 and up).

This was something mentioned in 32 Thoughts.

NFL is in 30 US markets
MLB is in 25 and it’s going to go to 26-28.
NBA is in 26, going to go to 28.
MLS (they didn’t mention) is going to be 25 or 26 when they add San Diego.

NHL is in 23?

 

[StreetHawk]

This was something mentioned in 32 Thoughts.

NFL is in 30 US markets
MLB is in 25 and it’s going to go to 26-28.
NBA is in 26, going to go to 28.
MLS (they didn’t mention) is going to be 25 or 26 when they add San Diego.

NHL is in 23?

Have to ask which markets the NHL would even consider given the other sports?

NFL - Clev, Cin, Balt, Indy, KC, GB or Milwaukee, Jax, NO, Atl, Houston
Is the NHL going to any of these markets?

NBA - Orlando, Charlotte, Atlanta, Brooklyn, Clev, Ind, Mil, OKC, NO, Sacramento, GS/SF, Phx, SA, Houston. Some of these NHL has a team somewhat close or in the same region within that state. Such as TB, Carolina, Isles, SJ.

MLB similar thing....

Issue the NHL will run into is that some of those NBA cities, the arena is basketball specific.

 

[TheLegend]

Yes, they're shrinking, into Rio Salado/Priest area, which is why Ernie held on to that parcel of land. In case they needed it.

So trying to insinuate or characterize Verde Investments not utilizing that parcel for X many years as a lack of business acumen is ignorant at best.

Like when you did so here:



DriveTime's HQ is also on that corner too, which Ernie owns. Maybe he wants to use the land for that some day?

I get that… but they obviously don’t need it anymore because they’re about to hit BK court (if they haven’t already).

He can sit on the land forever if he wants until he get’s a client who wants to build on it. And he can keep paying the appropriate taxes on it along with that.

Which leads me to say this…. I own 60 acres in GA along with my sisters that we bought off our grandfather some 45 years ago. We paid $45,000 for it…. Last I talked to my one sister it’s estimated to be worth around $3.5 million. Because it’s loaded with resources and holds all water and mineral rights.

The only thing that’s happened there in those was the old main house burning down (arson) and another house my parents lived in after they were married we bulldozed down because it was drawing drug addicts into it.

The taxes on it aren’t too bad but we’ve got to make a decision soon because the the money from losing the house that covered the taxes is running out soon. We’re getting inquiries about harvesting the trees there, but these days most want to do clear cutting and that would cause far more damage to the land’s value that what we’d make.

Now why am I telling you about this?? Just to show I’m not as ignorant about these things as you assume I am.

 

[GKJ]

Have to ask which markets the NHL would even consider given the other sports?

NFL - Clev, Cin, Balt, Indy, KC, GB or Milwaukee, Jax, NO, Atl, Houston
Is the NHL going to any of these markets?

NBA - Orlando, Charlotte, Atlanta, Brooklyn, Clev, Ind, Mil, OKC, NO, Sacramento, GS/SF, Phx, SA, Houston. Some of these NHL has a team somewhat close or in the same region within that state. Such as TB, Carolina, Isles, SJ.

MLB similar thing....

Issue the NHL will run into is that some of those NBA cities, the arena is basketball specific.

The biggest ones, Houston/Atlanta ok. I see the path there. They are huge markets. Atlanta’s problem is that of the huge markets, they have by far the worst drawing power because, without trying to be condescending, just do not have a very good sports culture. They not only have to be winning, they have to be hot too.

Then, with the exception of Milwaukee, it’s the markets without NBA teams. San Diego being a bonus of huge market and no NFL team. KC is good, Cincinnati may be swallowed up by CBJ. Baltimore if they had a building.

These others that aren’t but have an NBA team, I’m not so sure. I would be confident in effective marketing and strategy. NOLA for biased reasons.

I’d find one of these faster growing metros that is their own media market that start from scratch but you can build a monster in as a market like Columbus is for them. Jacksonville, maybe, don’t know if I trust that. Norfolk, Boise neither have NFL competition.

I don’t know which slot Salt Lake is in, when you factor in all their metros in Utah, that’s around a top 20 market and should be a 3-sport town.

 

[RogerRoger]

Have to ask which markets the NHL would even consider given the other sports?

NFL - Clev, Cin, Balt, Indy, KC, GB or Milwaukee, Jax, NO, Atl, Houston
Is the NHL going to any of these markets?

NBA - Orlando, Charlotte, Atlanta, Brooklyn, Clev, Ind, Mil, OKC, NO, Sacramento, GS/SF, Phx, SA, Houston. Some of these NHL has a team somewhat close or in the same region within that state. Such as TB, Carolina, Isles, SJ.

MLB similar thing....

Issue the NHL will run into is that some of those NBA cities, the arena is basketball specific.

SD, Houston, KC, SLC, Indianapolis, Sacramento, Atl, Phx are all good options. If the NHL said that the first 4 were going to be expansions and all see the light of day before 2030, I think they'd all be successful. Maybe I'm too optimistic though.

San Diego could easily modify their current plans and have an NHL ready arena. MLB doesn't compete for most of the season, which is great for fans.
Houston has the arena and a willing owner (for a reasonable price). Houston is booming market.
KC just need an owner. The arena is there for the taking and getting in there before the NBA would help, being first in Vegas, imo, helped a lot.
SLC will build an arena for the olympics and it seems like Bettman is already doing work with the NBA owner.

Indy's arena is bad for hockey, but it's a great market, better than Cincy imo. I know nothing about Sacramento. Atl and Phx can work, but I think this Yotes might have burned too many bridge and just like Minny, they could get a new team really quickly if this one leaves.

 

[Boris Zubov]

I generally agree with you: The fact that those games sold out show you what they're working with. They CAN build a fan base in the market that makes them a sustainable franchise and even a robust franchise.

But building a consistent winner TAKES MONEY, and when you're leaving revenue on the table by having the arena difficult for 3/8ths of the market to get to, you're not going to be able to do it unless your GM is one of the savviest people alive (like the Tampa Bay Rays!).

You're right that the ownership follies are devastating to building a consistent winner. Moyes was basically just sliding money from the Coyotes to his real estate company by renting office space (that the team didn't need) for something like $10 to $13 million per season! That's money that COULD go into payroll to be BETTER on the ice.

And once the headlines hit about Bankruptcy, you're a leper and no one wants anything to do with you. THAT'S when fans stopped going. From the time Moyes went into Bankruptcy, their attendance dropped almost 4000 instantly. And it took until 2020 to be over 14,000 again (TWELVE YEARS). When the team got the Glendale arena deal, they signed a 30-year lease running through 2033. The lease was only up for renegotiation because of the bankruptcy.

That's why we're in this mess now. It's not the market, it's not commute, it's Jerry Moyes running everything into the ground.

But that's why the Tempe deal would have been the "magic elixir." Because it's no longer a "What now?" Saga that's been going on since Moyes took over. They'd have a building they own. It would be accessible to all. It would only be the ebbs and flows of winning percentage.

At worst, they'd be Florida and at best they'd be Dallas. But now they're homeless.

Good post...although I'm simply not convinced Tempe does all that. A new building doesn't just automatically lend credibility to a franchise that has been a sad sack for over a decade. Sure it would attract attention for the first year, but the stink that's on the team would need way more than a shiny new arena to scrub it away. With them not ready to compete for at least 3-4 years, a market like Phoenix is going to remain mostly indifferent.

That figure of 3/8 of the region you quoted is a bogus argument, however. Plenty of fans in other markets travel a hell of a lot further to see their teams play. I live in central Connecticut where it's 2 hours to Boston or 2 1/2 to NYC. I've been to a Ranger home game & a Bruin home game since moving back a year ago. Granted I wouldn't do it regularly, but 45 mins to an hour that some Valley fans need to travel isn't the hardship you would like us to believe. Even with the team in Tempe, many Valley residents would've still had commutes over 30 minutes. Mesa only increases those times.

Last point, achieving Florida's status is a pretty low bar, yet it would be a huge step forward for this franchise. I honestly would love to see it, especially for the die hards who've been thru this entire ordeal. Too bad things look pretty bleak at the moment.

Regardless, we don't need to keep going back & forth on this. A lot of things we disagree on are hypotheticals that aren't worth debating ad nauseam...especially since Mullett is their Alamo at the moment.

 

[SImpelton]

There are paths forward for Phoenix hockey. Sadly I don't think they involve the Coyotes. I'm in the "region needs a reset" camp. I just don't think you can fix this in an offseason, and the Coyotes are out of time.

You need to come back in with a solid plan and a stadium that is literally already being built that will be both enjoyable and affordable for everyone involved. I don't think you can do that on the fly. After 10 years of planning, though, it could probably be done and be successful.

One of the lessons learned from the debacle of the Coyotes is that it is a whole HELL of a lot easier to succeed if you plan first, move second, then if you try to do it the other way. The legacy of Arizona hockey is that "we'll figure it out as we go along" is not actually a substitute for a viable plan.

Unfortunately-unfortunately there aren't a lot of places where you can just plug and play a team as troubled as the Coyotes either. You can't just plunk a team down for a few years in one place with every expectation of moving them again. The fans won't wear that, and I don't blame them. The Milwaukee Braves and KC A's in baseball are both pretty strong evidence of this. if the team does move, it's going to be to a new hopefully-permanent home. Which is why they're probably not moving this offseason and they will continue to hemorrhage money and goodwill in the short term.

This also removes a lot of otherwise intriguing options whose arena situation would be best described as "makeshift." This franchise has had nearly a quarter century of makeshift. Unless a building already exists or is literally going up as we speak, the town is probably not in consideration.

I don't envy the people who have to untangle this mess. The badwill in Glendale and the greater Phoenix area says the team can't stay, but it's not going to be easy to find a place for such a terribly run franchise to go either. Clean slates are sometimes hard to come by after all.

 

[TopC0rner]

shameful. Like, they are joking about something that seriously effects their fans and people that work for the team.

Their fans have been Rick-rolled from the start.