CXLV - Tempe Entertainment District citizen referendum vote upcoming May 16th

[roccerfeller]

Best of luck to the coyotes fans today

 

[GindyDraws]

Marek says it’s likely to pass
Seravalli says it’s likely to fail.

We will see

My money is on Seravalli. I mean, I'm not betting, but, you know.

 

[Stumbledore]

Instead of all this talk about plan b, and taxes, and ballots, and sportscasters, how about an update on the blonde living in her car for a year with the brunette?

 

[MMC]

The reaction in both this in the Atlanta thread has me seriously worried about what will happen to the site if we get a final four of Dallas, Vegas, Florida, and Carolina. I'm starting to think this place will explode.

Well, this guy did at least



Truly incredible that people are paid to write sentences such as the following

"Meanwhile, we’re stuck with Bettman’s McTeams and squads from Southern Evangelistan battling for Lord Stanley’s Cup.

Enjoy. Or better still — fire up the barbecue, hit the golf course and forget it until October, when the sport returns to a country where it actually matters."

"As of this writing, we’re left with three Sun Belt teams (two of them transplanted from the north years ago) and two expansion teams — one of them the Seattle Kraken, a team that has yet to celebrate its second birthday.

This is Bettman’s vision. The only thing that could possibly make him happier would be to see his beloved Arizona Coyotes play a Cup final in front of 5,000 people at Mullett Arena on the Arizona State campus."

 

[MayDayMayDay]

Well, this guy did at least



Truly incredible that people are paid to write sentences such as the following

"Meanwhile, we’re stuck with Bettman’s McTeams and squads from Southern Evangelistan battling for Lord Stanley’s Cup.

Enjoy. Or better still — fire up the barbecue, hit the golf course and forget it until October, when the sport returns to a country where it actually matters."

"As of this writing, we’re left with three Sun Belt teams (two of them transplanted from the north years ago) and two expansion teams — one of them the Seattle Kraken, a team that has yet to celebrate its second birthday.

This is Bettman’s vision. The only thing that could possibly make him happier would be to see his beloved Arizona Coyotes play a Cup final in front of 5,000 people at Mullett Arena on the Arizona State campus."

Damn, someone needs a hug.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

Instead of all this talk about plan b, and taxes, and ballots, and sportscasters, how about an update on the blonde living in her car for a year with the brunette?

This is the most important thing in this whole saga by far.

 

[Ernie]

Well, this guy did at least



Truly incredible that people are paid to write sentences such as the following

"Meanwhile, we’re stuck with Bettman’s McTeams and squads from Southern Evangelistan battling for Lord Stanley’s Cup.

Enjoy. Or better still — fire up the barbecue, hit the golf course and forget it until October, when the sport returns to a country where it actually matters."

"As of this writing, we’re left with three Sun Belt teams (two of them transplanted from the north years ago) and two expansion teams — one of them the Seattle Kraken, a team that has yet to celebrate its second birthday.

This is Bettman’s vision. The only thing that could possibly make him happier would be to see his beloved Arizona Coyotes play a Cup final in front of 5,000 people at Mullett Arena on the Arizona State campus.

Embarrassing.

Nationalism in Canada is awkward af.

 

[Final Baton]

Yeah, Jack Todd is a joke.

I'd like to say he's "washed up",
But he has actually never been any good to begin with. Lol

He's ridiculed by the vast majority of hockey fans in the province.

 

[Warden of the North]

Haven't been following this lately, do I have this right?

The citizens of Tempe are voting on the public dollars construction of a new arena, and if it fails, the Coyotes will be without an obvious home long term.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Damn, someone needs a hug.

Two words: "Bye, Felicia!"

 

[mouser]

Haven't been following this lately, do I have this right?

The citizens of Tempe are voting on the public dollars construction of a new arena, and if it fails, the Coyotes will be without an obvious home long term.

There are no public funds going towards the arena itself. It will be privately built and owned.

The proposal includes a special taxing district (CFD - community facilities district), which will collect a portion of sales taxes generated by the new development to pay for land remediation costs and other public infrastructure like local access roadways on the site.

 

[Ernie]

There are no public funds going towards the arena itself. It will be privately built and owned.

The proposal includes a special taxing district (CFD - community facilities district), which will collect a portion of sales taxes generated by the new development to pay for land remediation costs and other public infrastructure like local access roadways on the site.

That is the same thing as providing public money, it's just not upfront dollars. Tempe taxpayers will be subsidizing the district until the CFD is paid off. And you seem to have forgotten the property tax abatements..

 

[Warden of the North]

There are no public funds going towards the arena itself. It will be privately built and owned.

The proposal includes a special taxing district (CFD - community facilities district), which will collect a portion of sales taxes generated by the new development to pay for land remediation costs and other public infrastructure like local access roadways on the site.

Hmmmm. Ok. So what is the argument against it then? In brief, anyways.

Thanks

 

[mouser]

That is the same thing as providing public money, it's just not upfront dollars. Tempe taxpayers will be subsidizing the district until the CFD is paid off. And you seem to have forgotten the property tax abatements..

Only people who spend money within the development will be doing any "subsidizing". Tempe taxpayers who don't use the development won't be subsidizing the CFD.

re: tax abatements, I'm not trying to do a comprehensive explanation of every proposal detail. Simply clarifying the arena itself is privately financed and Tempe is not taxing the citizen base.

 

[mouser]

Hmmmm. Ok. So what is the argument against it then? In brief, anyways.

Thanks

There are probably two main lines of argument against:

a) Something better or different should be done with the land.

b) It's a bad proposal because it includes temporary (8 to 30 year) property tax abatements and Tempe will be forgoing a portion of taxes generated by the new development. Those forgone taxes will be used by the CFD to fund the land cleanup and public infrastructure.


It's pretty easily a better financial deal for Tempe than many other recent publicly built arenas like Detroit, Edmonton, Pittsburgh, Dallas, Minnesota, Columbus and the Calgary proposal. I haven't researched what sort of tax breaks other privately developed arenas have received like Islanders, Vegas, New Jersey and Winnipeg.

 

[Ernie]

Only people who spend money within the development will be doing any "subsidizing". Tempe taxpayers who don't use the development won't be subsidizing the CFD.

re: tax abatements, I'm not trying to do a comprehensive explanation of every proposal detail. Simply clarifying the arena itself is privately financed and Tempe is not taxing the citizen base.

Yes, "not trying to be comprehensive" is a pretty good summary! Don't let those small details drag you down.

Tempe will not be collecting taxes but WILL be providing services. The cost of those services will be coming out of Tempe taxpayers' pockets.

Pretending this isn't publicly funded is so disingenuous.

 

[Yukon Joe]

There are probably two main lines of argument against:

a) Something better or different should be done with the land.

b) It's a bad proposal because it includes temporary (8 to 30 year) property tax abatements and Tempe will be forgoing a portion of taxes generated by the new development. Those forgone taxes will be used by the CFD to fund the land cleanup and public infrastructure.


It's pretty easily a better financial deal for Tempe than many other recent publicly built arenas like Detroit, Edmonton, Pittsburgh and the Calgary proposal. I haven't researched what sort of tax breaks other privately developed arenas have received like Islanders, Vegas and New Jersey.

In addition to those, I think there's some fairly bad-faith arguments:

-it will increase traffic! Yes I'm sure almost anything you'd build would generate more traffic than an abandoned garbage dump

-SkyHarbour

-no tax breaks for billionaires!

-just straight up anti-development - keep Tempe the way it is


A better faith argument though goes something like:

-taxpayers will not pay for the arena, but will still be on the hook for hundreds of millions of dollars in associated costs, like for roads, sewer, associated fire and policing etc. - but will not be receiving the proper tax funding to be able to pay those costs

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Well, this guy did at least



Truly incredible that people are paid to write sentences such as the following

"Meanwhile, we’re stuck with Bettman’s McTeams and squads from Southern Evangelistan battling for Lord Stanley’s Cup.

Enjoy. Or better still — fire up the barbecue, hit the golf course and forget it until October, when the sport returns to a country where it actually matters."

"As of this writing, we’re left with three Sun Belt teams (two of them transplanted from the north years ago) and two expansion teams — one of them the Seattle Kraken, a team that has yet to celebrate its second birthday.

This is Bettman’s vision. The only thing that could possibly make him happier would be to see his beloved Arizona Coyotes play a Cup final in front of 5,000 people at Mullett Arena on the Arizona State campus."

Bettman's vision included Matthews and Tavares combining for 0 goals in the second round, and a team with three 100-point scorers unable to do anything 5-on-5.

 

[Warden of the North]

There are probably two main lines of argument against:

a) Something better or different should be done with the land.

b) It's a bad proposal because it includes temporary (8 to 30 year) property tax abatements and Tempe will be forgoing a portion of taxes generated by the new development. Those forgone taxes will be used by the CFD to fund the land cleanup and public infrastructure.


It's pretty easily a better financial deal for Tempe than many other recent publicly built arenas like Detroit, Edmonton, Pittsburgh, Dallas, Minnesota, Columbus and the Calgary proposal. I haven't researched what sort of tax breaks other privately developed arenas have received like Islanders, Vegas, New Jersey and Winnipeg.

Ahhh that makes sense. Thanks for the primer.

 

[mouser]

Yes, "not trying to be comprehensive" is a pretty good summary! Don't let those small details drag you down.

Tempe will not be collecting taxes but WILL be providing services. The cost of those services will be coming out of Tempe taxpayers' pockets.

Pretending this isn't publicly funded is so disingenuous.

We've hashed through all this stuff previously in the thread.

The developer is:
a) Contributing $1.1m/year (with inflation increases) to Tempe for public safety expenditures.
b) Providing an on-site Public Safety Facility (estimated $3m value)
c) Contributing $1.5m (over 8 years) to the Tempe general fund
d) Contributing $414k/year (with inflation adjustments) to Valley Metro (buses and light rail)
e) Providing 3000 square feet of office space for free to Tempe (estimated value $5.7m)
f) Providing free city use of the music venue (5 days/year), arena (3 days/year), outdoor venue (10 days/year) and plaza (5 days/year)
g) Contributing $2m towards Tempe affordable housing initiatives
h) Contributing $1.5m to support Public Transit Improvements
i) Contributing $200k/year (with inflation increases) for traffic control improvements on the roads directly adjacent to the property.
j) Providing Naming Rights for the city of Tempe at no charge

And finally--Tempe will still be collecting a portion of taxes generated by the development. The CFD is only receiving a portion of the taxes generated by the development, not all of it.


Is that going to be enough to cover all the city of Tempe public service costs going forward? I have no idea, but the Tempe city council seems fully onboard with the numbers.

 

[Ernie]

We've hashed through all this stuff previously in the thread.

The developer is:
a) Contributing $1.1m/year (with inflation increases) to Tempe for public safety expenditures.
b) Providing an on-site Public Safety Facility (estimated $3m value)
c) Contributing $1.5m (over 8 years) to the Tempe general fund
d) Contributing $414k/year (with inflation adjustments) to Valley Metro (buses and light rail)
e) Providing 3000 square feet of office space for free to Tempe (estimated value $5.7m)
f) Providing free city use of the music venue (5 days/year), arena (3 days/year), outdoor venue (10 days/year) and plaza (5 days/year)
g) Contributing $2m towards Tempe affordable housing initiatives
h) Contributing $1.5m to support Public Transit Improvements
i) Contributing $200k/year (with inflation increases) for traffic control improvements on the roads directly adjacent to the property.
j) Providing Naming Rights for the city of Tempe at no charge

And finally--Tempe will still be collecting a portion of taxes generated by the development. The CFD is only receiving a portion of the taxes generated by the development, not all of it.

Ok, what do all those add up to? Do they equal the amount of public funding?

 

[theguardianII]

Voters leaving indicate an overwhelming defeat ;|
OH!
Voters leaving indicate overwhelming win too!

Just depends upon which group is announcing.

Tempewins say early voting won for them
Tempe1rst say voters leaving the polls say the opposite.

Figures, but early results should be soon

Tempewins is busing (in?) people to vote, unclear about that.

 

[Stumbledore]

Bettman's vision included Matthews and Tavares combining for 0 goals in the second round, and a team with three 100-point scorers unable to do anything 5-on-5.

Bettman's vision? No, what you're describing is the annual hope of every Canadian hockey fan outside of Ontario.

 

[TheLegend]

Haven't been following this lately, do I have this right?

The citizens of Tempe are voting on the public dollars construction of a new arena, and if it fails, the Coyotes will be without an obvious home long term.

Only public dollars go to infrastructure and cleaning up an old landfill.

We don't know what happens yet if the vote fails. LOTS of speculating and wishful thinking there.

 

[TheLegend]

From the guy who oversees the count....