CXLV - Tempe Entertainment District citizen referendum vote upcoming May 16th

[GordonGraham]

Just another sign that hockey doesnt really matter there, here we would have had polls on this in the media every single day

 

[LPHabsFan]

It drives me nuts when people talk about tax abatement as a negative thing that taxpayers are "paying" or "losing."

Sure, it's an "opportunity cost" that you're not potentially getting, but it's only actually an opportunity cost if there's a definite plan for an alternative that's GOING to happen if the arena doesn't. Which is like 99% never the case.

(Nassau County made a big stink about it for the Islanders a decade ago, same tired talking points. The people voted against a new Islanders arena because of an opportunity cost, but that site has been there since the Air Force gave it to the county, and hasn't been utilized for anything but NVMC in SEVENTY YEARS).


The land in question in Tempe is a DUMP, that needs like $70 million worth of investment in order to actually DO anything with it. Money that Tempe doesn't want to pay.

And everyone is completely ignoring that people from outside of Tempe will likely be carrying the bulk of the CFD. There's SIX MILLION people in the metro area, and only 184,118 live in Tempe.


This is easily the most municipal-friendly arena deal in the history of the NHL, NBA, NFL or MLB.

The problem with looking at it like this is two fold. Firstly, what your saying on the one hand, is perfectly reasonable if you look at things in a vacuum. Problem is, that's not how the world works. You can't remove the God knows how many tens of millions, maybe even more than a hundred million dollars, that has been gifted to the team throughout the years and that's just from the government. If we want, we can also add the other mountains of debt that nobody acknowledges but surely has received from LOC's from the NHL.

The second thing is that those who have lived through this, both directly (residents/fans) and indirectly (outsiders following the situation for years) have trouble buying what Muruelo is selling. We know about the questionable business practices. We know about Westgate. We know about the hundreds of millions of dollars of debt already attached to the team. We know about the negativity associated with the team due to all the years of ownership trouble and mismanagement. We know that this organization, while under a different owner now, has a history of selling bullshit. We know that there is no guarantee that the fans both A - show up and B - pay close to actual NHL prices. We know that in a multi phase, long term, massive, 2 plus billion dollar project with god knows how many investors and developers, things can happen, things can change. Oh right, I already mentioned Westgate sorry about that.

Anyways, as I said, if we look at it in a vacuum, MAYBE this is a reasonable proposal. But we never know until it's too late what little loopholes have been added in, we know everything I mentioned above, and there's no guarantee the projects comes to a completion which is necessary to make the money.

 

[edog37]

Just another sign that hockey doesnt really matter there, here we would have had polls on this in the media every single day

No you wouldn’t. You’d have people whining about “no tax dollars” or “make them pay for it themselves” .

 

[ForumNamePending]

I haven't been following this closely, but is this considered Arizona's 9th life?

Like, if this gets voted down is the only question weather they have a new home right away or play out the string before moving?

C'mon dude, I haven't really kept on top of things either, but I still know the Arizona Coyotes will outlive us all. Regardless the results of today's vote, billions of years from now, when the sun has entered its red giant phase and is about to swallow the Earth, the Coyotes will be taking the ice at the Mullet Arena for their morning skate.

 

[edog37]

Well, this guy did at least



Truly incredible that people are paid to write sentences such as the following

"Meanwhile, we’re stuck with Bettman’s McTeams and squads from Southern Evangelistan battling for Lord Stanley’s Cup.

Enjoy. Or better still — fire up the barbecue, hit the golf course and forget it until October, when the sport returns to a country where it actually matters."

"As of this writing, we’re left with three Sun Belt teams (two of them transplanted from the north years ago) and two expansion teams — one of them the Seattle Kraken, a team that has yet to celebrate its second birthday.

This is Bettman’s vision. The only thing that could possibly make him happier would be to see his beloved Arizona Coyotes play a Cup final in front of 5,000 people at Mullett Arena on the Arizona State campus."

It’s typical Canadian whining. “My team can’t draft or can’t properly handle the cap, so it’s Bergman’s fault!” That’s why I look forward every year to increasing the number by one of a Canadian team not winning the Cup. As far as I’m concerned, 1993 can last forever.

 

[Lions67]

No you wouldn’t. You’d have people whining about “no tax dollars” or “make them pay for it themselves” .

But hers the thing.
If this project is such a slam dunk as far as revenues generated from all this, then why doesn’t AM just pay for it all? Surely, 70-90 million is a drop in the bucket with the new TED and those magical hotels.
I mean he’s paying for everything else, why not this too?

Having said that though,
I expect this to pass.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

But hers the thing.
If this project is such a slam dunk as far as revenues generated from all this, then why doesn’t AM just pay for it all? Surely, 70-90 million is a drop in the bucket with the new TED and those magical hotels.
I mean he’s paying for everything else, why not this too?

Having said that though,
I expect this to pass.

I'm old, but to date myself I'd like to present one of the Ferengi Rules of Aquisition: Never pay more for an aquisition than you have to.

 

[1CasualFan]

I heard there was a vote today so wanted to stop by and give my regards. I think its a wonderful civic process to allow the residents of Tempe to decide for themselves how they want to allocate their public resources. No matter what happens, the outcome is pure. And that's a great thing, in my opinion.

To the extent anyone cares, I moved into venture capital - which is a lot more demanding time wise so I dont really make it out to my beloved HFBoards megathread as much as I once did (lazy ass lawyers are probably always out clowning around on message boards while billing outrageous hourly fees for meetings they're not even paying attention to...)

Cheers - CF

 

[TheLegend]

But hers the thing.
If this project is such a slam dunk as far as revenues generated from all this, then why doesn’t AM just pay for it all? Surely, 70-90 million is a drop in the bucket with the new TED and those magical hotels.
I mean he’s paying for everything else, why not this too?

Having said that though,
I expect this to pass.

He IS paying for everything other than what the city would normally provide for any kind of project. City is legally responsible for cleaning up the land fill. Which could run up to $73 million depending on what they find buried there. The rest is providing the utility lines, roads…. etc.

But what they are doing here is instead of the city having to pull directly from it’s current general funds to pay for that part, they’re going to create a facilities district that’s separate from the city (this insulating them completely) to issue the bonds and generate the revenue (only within the district itself) to repay them.

The project is projected at $2.1 billion. About $230 million is budgeted for the bonds to cover. The other $1.8-1.9 billion is coming from Meruelo.

 

[TheLegend]

I heard there was a vote today so wanted to stop by and give my regards. I think its a wonderful civic process to allow the residents of Tempe to decide for themselves how they want to allocate their public resources. No matter what happens, the outcome is pure. And that's a great thing, in my opinion.

To the extent anyone cares, I moved into venture capital - which is a lot more demanding time wise so I dont really make it out to my beloved HFBoards megathread as much as I once did (lazy ass lawyers are probably always out clowning around on message boards while billing outrageous hourly fees for meetings they're not even paying attention to...)

Cheers - CF

Good to see you CF!

I agree this was the best path to go, regardless of the outcome today or tomorrow.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

I heard there was a vote today so wanted to stop by and give my regards. I think its a wonderful civic process to allow the residents of Tempe to decide for themselves how they want to allocate their public resources. No matter what happens, the outcome is pure. And that's a great thing, in my opinion.

To the extent anyone cares, I moved into venture capital - which is a lot more demanding time wise so I dont really make it out to my beloved HFBoards megathread as much as I once did (lazy ass lawyers are probably always out clowning around on message boards while billing outrageous hourly fees for meetings they're not even paying attention to...)

Cheers - CF

You have a higher opinion of the average voter than I do, lol

 

[1CasualFan]

You have a higher opinion of the average voter than I do, lol

Hah - the powerful TomServo still here. Great to see you and my old friend Legend. Hope you fellas are doing well.

The voters will do what they feel like doing - its not my place to say. Now, disingenuous or outright corrupt politicians on the other hand... well, you know.

 

[mouser]

I heard there was a vote today so wanted to stop by and give my regards. I think its a wonderful civic process to allow the residents of Tempe to decide for themselves how they want to allocate their public resources. No matter what happens, the outcome is pure. And that's a great thing, in my opinion.

To the extent anyone cares, I moved into venture capital - which is a lot more demanding time wise so I dont really make it out to my beloved HFBoards megathread as much as I once did (lazy ass lawyers are probably always out clowning around on message boards while billing outrageous hourly fees for meetings they're not even paying attention to...)

Cheers - CF

Great to see you stop by, hope the venture capital life is treating you well.

 

[1CasualFan]

Just another sign that hockey doesnt really matter there, here we would have had polls on this in the media every single day

Polls in the media? That sure seems like a super sturdy metric, so it makes sense to post that thought. Good to see that the megathread is still megathreading

 

[1CasualFan]

Great to see you stop by, hope the venture capital life is treating you well.

Thanks, so far so good. Hope all is well down there in the desert. As you can see, I really haven't changed much at all...

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Hah - the powerful TomServo still here. Great to see you and my old friend Legend. Hope you fellas are doing well.

The voters will do what they feel like doing - its not my place to say. Now, disingenuous or outright corrupt politicians on the other hand... well, you know.

Thanks Casual. I had been away from the board for a while, but came back as a precaution to talk hockey if twitter died, lol.

I guess decisions like this in my head are coloured by personal experience, where voters kill a promising project, only to realize they were wrong, and approve a worse version of the project a few years later.

 

[blues10]

Are voting results expected tonight?

 

[TheLegend]

Are voting results expected tonight?

First drop is at 8pm AZ time…. Or 36 minutes from now. Ballots dropped off today won’t be released until tomorrow at the earliest

 

[Llama19]

15 minute warning...

Election results are posted at 8 p.m. on Election Day. The Elections Department will post unofficial results until all ballots have been tabulated. Results are not official until they are canvassed.

Web site: elections.maricopa.gov/results-and-data/election-results.html#ElectionResultsSearch

 

[1CasualFan]

15 minute warning...

Election results are posted at 8 p.m. on Election Day. The Elections Department will post unofficial results until all ballots have been tabulated. Results are not official until they are canvassed.

Web site: elections.maricopa.gov/results-and-data/election-results.html#ElectionResultsSearch

If its anything like California, the best part is going to be when the three propositions somehow have different % even though they're all related.

 

[MNNumbers]

Present postings are all about 56-44 against.

 

[DopeyFish]

looks like it isn't passing. any of them.

 

[Llama19]

 

[Reaser]

First ballots in, no leads.

 

[Final Baton]

So 56/57 for no so far.

Are all of todays ballots expected tommorow? Or are some already tabulated?

I wonder how many came in today.