CXLIX - FINAL thoughts on the Arizona Coyotes

[AZDesertKnight]

I don't need to prove you wrong, your posts do that for me all the time.

There was no "revelation" here. There has been zero new information that was presented since it was originally reported in 2023. I've literally sourced you the posts that were made at the time and you can't seem to process it. A Shame, really.

Further, why are you speculating at all? It's funny how Craig Morgan "happened" to point you this news on the super secret Coyotes fanboy discord but failed to mention Tempe had another bad day in Court last week and is looking at another year of pre trial motions before they'll inevitably settle on the IGA with Phoenix.

Civil Court Case Information - Case History

Superior Court Docket: Civil Court Case Information - Case History

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov

View attachment 917447


Why? because Craig nakedly lied to Coyotes fans about Sky Harbor's strength of position during the run up to the election and it would be an admission of guilt. The Tempe arena was doomed on January 1st 2023 when the FAA sent their official letter to Sky Harbor making the 65DNL lines official. That's a fact.

You can deflect, dodge, ignore the facts all you want it's fine. Everyone on this board knows I've never missed.

This is a masterclass post right here. Bravo!

 

[Sgt Schultz]

All the bickering aside, what we learned from the Coyotes is a lot more limited and simple than people may think. If you put a team in a big and growing market, stick it first in an arena that sucks for hockey, then in one as far away from the geographic center of the fanbase as possible, add in some ownership where the hockey team was not their first interest, and probably not their second, it will fail. It was almost like an experiment in how much abuse a franchise can take and stay afloat.

The only thing we learned about the market is it won't go to the ends of the earth to consistently support a subpar team owned by a buffoon or non-dedicated owner.

All the posts on X/Twitter, Facebook, or various blogs resurrecting the possibility of hockey returning to the valley are nothing more than gossip until the arena situation situation and ownership stability questions get answered.

While there is a potential answer to the ownership question, the arena question has a much longer lead time and probably a higher "burden of proof," given the history.

 

[Voight]

I don't need to prove you wrong, your posts do that for me all the time.

There was no "revelation" here. There has been zero new information that was presented since it was originally reported in 2023. I've literally sourced you the posts that were made at the time and you can't seem to process it. A Shame, really.

Further, why are you speculating at all? It's funny how Craig Morgan "happened" to point you this news on the super secret Coyotes fanboy discord but failed to mention Tempe had another bad day in Court last week and is looking at another year of pre trial motions before they'll inevitably settle on the IGA with Phoenix.

Civil Court Case Information - Case History

Superior Court Docket: Civil Court Case Information - Case History

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov

View attachment 917447


Why? because Craig nakedly lied to Coyotes fans about Sky Harbor's strength of position during the run up to the election and it would be an admission of guilt. The Tempe arena was doomed on January 1st 2023 when the FAA sent their official letter to Sky Harbor making the 65DNL lines official. That's a fact.

You can deflect, dodge, ignore the facts all you want it's fine. Everyone on this board knows I've never missed.

Source: trust me bro

 

[Boris Zubov]

All the bickering aside, what we learned from the Coyotes is a lot more limited and simple than people may think. If you put a team in a big and growing market, stick it first in an arena that sucks for hockey, then in one as far away from the geographic center of the fanbase as possible, add in some ownership where the hockey team was not their first interest, and probably not their second, it will fail. It was almost like an experiment in how much abuse a franchise can take and stay afloat.

The only thing we learned about the market is it won't go to the ends of the earth to consistently support a subpar team owned by a buffoon or non-dedicated owner.

All the posts on X/Twitter, Facebook, or various blogs resurrecting the possibility of hockey returning to the valley are nothing more than gossip until the arena situation situation and ownership stability questions get answered.

While there is a potential answer to the ownership question, the arena question has a much longer lead time and probably a higher "burden of proof," given the history.

While I mainly agree with everything you're saying, it turned out there was no "geographic center" to their fanbase. They could barely sell out at Mullett. The TV ratings were atrocious. The market just had no appetite for hockey. Sure there were diehards, but not nearly enough to support an NHL team.

 

[TheLegend]

This is a masterclass post right here. Bravo!

Your standards have to be tremendously low then.

I don't need to prove you wrong, your posts do that for me all the time.

Of course..... you feel you have to be the smartest guy in the room while I like to toss things around. So let's dive in shall we??

There was no "revelation" here. There has been zero new information that was presented since it was originally reported in 2023. I've literally sourced you the posts that were made at the time and you can't seem to process it. A Shame, really.

No revelation?? I'd say a final decision from the AG's office on the matter was something of substance. My initial reaction was this could have been a bigger shit show had TED actually passed the OML violation led to the ordinance authorizing the vote. Of course it went down so it's a moot point.

Further, why are you speculating at all? It's funny how Craig Morgan "happened" to point you this news on the super secret Coyotes fanboy discord but failed to mention Tempe had another bad day in Court last week and is looking at another year of pre trial motions before they'll inevitably settle on the IGA with Phoenix.

Why not? People have spent the last 15 years in this forum speculating things. This is no different. I mean..... why were you even speculating above on Craig Morgan's ability to make a paycheck.

He's doing quite fine from what I can gather. Wished I could afford to spend a month vacationing in Europe like he did recently.

As far as how Craig Morgan told me?? He just happened to be on the discord at the time I was posting about it. It was pure coincidence. I just did a little more digging after that.

And what about the IGA?? This is just more crap you're piling on to obscure things.

Civil Court Case Information - Case History

Superior Court Docket: Civil Court Case Information - Case History

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov

View attachment 917447


Why? because Craig nakedly lied to Coyotes fans about Sky Harbor's strength of position during the run up to the election and it would be an admission of guilt. The Tempe arena was doomed on January 1st 2023 when the FAA sent their official letter to Sky Harbor making the 65DNL lines official. That's a fact.

And?? Sure..... the FAA declaration sets the zones. It's also a fact that there are required guidelines in place IF you build housing units in those zones.

You can deflect, dodge, ignore the facts all you want it's fine. Everyone on this board knows I've never missed.

Not dodging anything....

You made a mistake (albeit a small clerical one) and now trying to deflect it by piling more crap on top.

Just like I made a mistake earlier not verifying what I had heard on the news FIRST. The only difference being I OWNED UP TO IT by posting exactly what I attempted to do.

So yes..... you DO miss at times.... everyone here has over the course of time. Only instead of simply admitting to it you just break out the shovel hoping you can bury it.

 

[TheLegend]

All the bickering aside, what we learned from the Coyotes is a lot more limited and simple than people may think. If you put a team in a big and growing market, stick it first in an arena that sucks for hockey, then in one as far away from the geographic center of the fanbase as possible, add in some ownership where the hockey team was not their first interest, and probably not their second, it will fail. It was almost like an experiment in how much abuse a franchise can take and stay afloat.

The only thing we learned about the market is it won't go to the ends of the earth to consistently support a subpar team owned by a buffoon or non-dedicated owner.

All the posts on X/Twitter, Facebook, or various blogs resurrecting the possibility of hockey returning to the valley are nothing more than gossip until the arena situation situation and ownership stability questions get answered.

While there is a potential answer to the ownership question, the arena question has a much longer lead time and probably a higher "burden of proof," given the history.

I thought Frank Seravalli's comment about a return to Arizona in five years was overly optimistic. Almost unrealistic. Now if it were five years down the road and that process was just beginning it becomes a little more believable. But all the things you mentioned have to be resolved well before that.

 

[StreetHawk]

I thought Frank Seravalli's comment about a return to Arizona in five years was overly optimistic. Almost unrealistic. Now if it were five years down the road and that process was just beginning it becomes a little more believable. But all the things you mentioned have to be resolved well before that.

Realistically, it was insanely optimistic for NHL to return to AZ in 5 years. Most realistic timeline is closer to when the Suns lease expires. Whether that is in PHX or another city/county that would build a Dual Purpose arena for both clubs. I don't think an NHL team alone would convince a city to build a new arena. Makes more sense to try to get the suns as well if they are contributing to a new arena.

 

[aqib]

While I mainly agree with everything you're saying, it turned out there was no "geographic center" to their fanbase. They could barely sell out at Mullett. The TV ratings were atrocious. The market just had no appetite for hockey. Sure there were diehards, but not nearly enough to support an NHL team.

Thats why I always questioned the argument that the arena location was the only problem.

 

[Shwan]

No revelation?? I'd say a final decision from the AG's office on the matter was something of substance. My initial reaction was this could have been a bigger shit show had TED actually passed the OML violation led to the ordinance authorizing the vote. Of course it went down so it's a moot point.

This was your initial reaction:

So this is a whole lot of not a whole lot.

I reckon Ron Tapscott decided to climb up on his soapbox again. He's more or less the Tempe version of Ken Jones.

Anyways.

As far as how Craig Morgan told me?? He just happened to be on the discord at the time I was posting about it. It was pure coincidence. I just did a little more digging after that.

Again, this explains so, so much about the last 3 years on this board.

You made a mistake (albeit a small clerical one) and now trying to deflect it by piling more crap on top.

Not sure where I made a mistake here. You posted in 2023 that this was "whole lot of not a whole lot" and now you're saying this could have been a big deal. I've proven to you that the information you had access to in 2023 is the same information you have now, so your "evolving situation" excuse is not valid.

So yes..... you DO miss at times.... everyone here has over the course of time. Only instead of simply admitting to it you just break out the shovel hoping you can bury it.

Nah, don't think I have. You can ask on your secret fanboy diehard discord about the end of the Meruelo's first year with his gambling license, before the AZ DOG gave up caring because 6 books account for 95% of tax revenue and they can't get anyone to fill the openings.

and you can definitely ask Craig Morgan what Andrew Barroway was doing at Josh Doan's first game if he was supposed to be indefinitely suspended by the league as an owner.

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

I'll always feel bad for the Yotes.. I still don't understand why they ever moved out of Phoenix in the first place?

 

[StreetHawk]

I'll always feel bad for the Yotes.. I still don't understand why they ever moved out of Phoenix in the first place?

Arena. Footprint only designed for NBA. Only like 12K of unobstructed seats or less. Plus, arena management agreement belonged to the suns, so Coyotes were only getting game day arena revenues only. No NHL team is currently a tenant to an NBA controlled arena.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Thats why I always questioned the argument that the arena location was the only problem.

Same. The east valley-west valley location was always irrelevant. Half the valley would always be bitching, even if the team was still downtown. The TV numbers told the real story...even when the team stinks there still should be some fans tuning in. I posted the ratings for either 22-23 or 21-22 in an earlier version of the megathread & it showed they were only drawing 1200 fans per game on TV! That's untenable in a market of 5+ million people.

 

[Shwan]

Same. The east valley-west valley location was always irrelevant. Half the valley would always be bitching, even if the team was still downtown. The TV numbers told the real story...even when the team stinks there still should be some fans tuning in. I posted the ratings for either 22-23 or 21-22 in an earlier version of the megathread & it showed they were only drawing 1200 fans per game on TV! That's untenable in a market of 5+ million people.

Meruelo's final dirty secret is he doesn't want you to know how many people in Utah were watching Coyotes games compared to Phoenix that last season.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Meruelo's final dirty secret is he doesn't want you to know how many people in Utah were watching Coyotes games compared to Phoenix that last season.

Do you know what the numbers were? I'm genuinely curious.

 

[GKJ]

Craig Morgan trying to keep his paycheck with his "anonymous" some more

View attachment 915127

He has said he has heard of this group before though. And it matches what Frank has also said recently.

The league ain’t gonna do it until they know the shovels are going in the ground, at least.

 

[Shwan]

Do you know what the numbers were? I'm genuinely curious.

I don't have exact numbers but my understanding is it was a big factor behind what went down regarding moving the team. I expect Scripps will release some form of "viewership is up 5000%" type announcement on their Q4 earnings.

He has said he has heard of this group before though. And it matches what Frank has also said recently.

The league ain’t gonna do it until they know the shovels are going in the ground, at least.

It's a pedestrian rumor that's been floating for awhile that has near zero legitimacy. Some rich folks had an "exploratory conversation" with Shane Doan. Cool beans.

Just like I've hinted at Queen Creek in the past. Some developers draw up a modest arena as a possibility to their retail district proposal and suddenly it's "the Coyotes are going to be back here in no time!"

Given the economic headwinds the country let alone Arizona is about to face, I doubt paying $1.5-$2B for a NHL team along with another half a billion for an arena is going to seriously be on anyone's mind for at least another 10 years.

 

[Sgt Schultz]

Realistically, it was insanely optimistic for NHL to return to AZ in 5 years. Most realistic timeline is closer to when the Suns lease expires. Whether that is in PHX or another city/county that would build a Dual Purpose arena for both clubs. I don't think an NHL team alone would convince a city to build a new arena. Makes more sense to try to get the suns as well if they are contributing to a new arena.

I don't think they thought Meruelo was going to pull off winning the land auction, gaining the approvals, getting the permits, and getting an arena built in 5 years. I don't even think they thought he was going to get it done in 10. My belief is that it was a window left slightly open in case suddenly everything that had not come into alignment in 30 years suddenly came into alignment.

It gave Meruelo a chance to push for something he wanted to do (for reasons beyond the Coyotes), but it was always a shot in the dark. It was a little like buying a lottery ticket: "we won't win, but if we do......." Only this lottery ticket also got them repaid for their expenses in running the team.

I doubt that the league expected it to come crashing down as quickly as it did, but it was a zero-cost bet. If he somehow pulled it off, they are back in the Phoenix market, if not, add them to the list of potential future franchises.

 

[Shwan]

It gave Meruelo a chance to push for something he wanted to do (for reasons beyond the Coyotes), but it was always a shot in the dark. It was a little like buying a lottery ticket: "we won't win, but if we do......." Only this lottery ticket also got them repaid for their expenses in running the team.

This analysis checks out but to clarify this was the league's position the second they gave him the team. We know Andrew Barroway did not have the means to fully own a hockey team but for some reason he mysteriously bought out the rest of Ice Arizona out in June 2017. This was probably some stop gap measure Andrew executed on behalf of the league in order to find new ownership after Ice Arizona threw in the towel when the original ASU arena deal fell through in February 2017.

By the time 2019 came around the league had few options left, the likeliest alternative course of action being taking control of the team again, because they were ones defacto owning it due to the astronomical amount of debt they had on the team.

So Meruelo likely saw his opportunity and came in. Given the weird nature of the transactions required to give the team to Smith we can infer there was likely some agreement in place between the league and Meruelo that absolved him from servicing the existing debt until the team was solvent etc. which is why the league's patience on the Coyotes soured very quickly the second interest rates went from near zero to 6% over the course of a little over a year.

At the end of the day this worked out for the league like you said, probably better than if Meruelo actually got his arena given that the League's books are now free and clear of Coyotes debt.

 

[AZDesertKnight]

Same. The east valley-west valley location was always irrelevant. Half the valley would always be bitching, even if the team was still downtown. The TV numbers told the real story...even when the team stinks there still should be some fans tuning in. I posted the ratings for either 22-23 or 21-22 in an earlier version of the megathread & it showed they were only drawing 1200 fans per game on TV! That's untenable in a market of 5+ million people.

Wrong. If the arena was central/east 85% of the fan base would be happy. That’s the demographic of hockey fans In the valley.

Hockey fans don’t exist out west

 

[aqib]

Wrong. If the arena was central/east 85% of the fan base would be happy. That’s the demographic of hockey fans In the valley.

Hockey fans don’t exist out west

So there are two issues with that:

1) If there were hockey fans out east that couldn't get to the games on a regular basis why aren't they tuning in on TV?

2) The theory behind the Southern Expansion was that that the presence of teams in these new markets would create new hockey fans. So why didn't West Valley people become hockey fans in the 19 years they had an NHL team there?

 

[takimaki]

Wrong. If the arena was central/east 85% of the fan base would be happy. That’s the demographic of hockey fans In the valley.

Hockey fans don’t exist out west

Subpar location is but one of many reasons for the failure of the team. The whole thing was half-assed from the beginning, and it was so obvious that you could feel it.

And you know that was more than enough time to make it work in the West Valley. But that’s “hard work” - and no hard work at an upper level was ever done regarding NHL hockey in the Valley. And so, there is no team anymore.

 

[Takuto Maruki]

All the bickering aside, what we learned from the Coyotes is a lot more limited and simple than people may think. If you put a team in a big and growing market, stick it first in an arena that sucks for hockey, then in one as far away from the geographic center of the fanbase as possible, add in some ownership where the hockey team was not their first interest, and probably not their second, it will fail. It was almost like an experiment in how much abuse a franchise can take and stay afloat.

That's what I take from the entire Coyotes saga as well. It's clear that it was a hare-brained idea to begin with - but the actual idea *would* have been sound if it wasn't so ramshackle and approached like expansion efforts are now. Coupled with constantly playing behind the 8 ball in terms of arena, and by the end firmly entrenched in civic politics and shifty owners, it was amazing to think it lasted as long as it did.

But I feel like as long as there is an opportunity to do so, the NHL will return to Arizona. Like many others have said, that a good chunk of your remaining markets that you can *theoretically* expand or move to are major US media markets means that it's going to be on the back of the NHL's mind, but the only way it happens is if the arena situation breaks out to something that is more beneficial to the NHL and whoever owns Arizona 2.0 - and that said owner isn't a fly-by-nighter.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Wrong. If the arena was central/east 85% of the fan base would be happy. That’s the demographic of hockey fans In the valley.

Hockey fans don’t exist out west

Serious question...How many games did you attend at Mullett?

 

[wpgallday1960]

What I find disturbing, after reading this thread and returning to this issue after some time, is that Craig Morgan, supposedly a journalist and some one who is supposed to present facts, was actually a producer of misinformation. Deliberately misrepresenting the true situation is a damning indictment, IMO.

Can’t say it wouldn’t happen in other markets and shows the sorry state of journalism we have in NA.

 

[TheLegend]

^^^^^

Oh......

https://x.com/i/web/status/1849082726596383100

Article link (for those who don't like dealing with Elon)

Developers now seeking public financing for $1B project at Reno's Grand Sierra Resort

Developers behind a massive arena project at Reno's Grand Sierra Resort intend to ask the city of Reno for public financing to help pay for the project, a chang

nevadasportsnet.com

EDIT: Pulling this from a link in the article. This is from a page on the CoR website and it summarizes what a TIF is that Meruelo is looking for

Incentives

The Reno Redevelopment Agency provides incentives from property and sales tax increment funds.

Tax Increment Funds - Nevada state law makes available to redevelopment agencies a method of obtaining funds called "tax increment financing." On the date the city council approves a redevelopment plan, the property within the boundaries of the plan has a certain total property tax value. If the assessed property valuation increases, most of the property taxes that are derived from the increase go to the redevelopment agency. If a sales increment (a.k.a. tourism improvement or STAR bond) district is created where no sales tax revenues were previously generated, most of the sales tax increment revenues go to the City. These funds are called "tax increments." Usually, the flow of tax increment revenues to the agency and/or City will not be sufficient in itself to finance the full scope of redevelopment activities and development projects. Therefore, agencies and cities issue bonds. These bonds are not a debt of the city or county general fund and are repaid solely from tax increment revenues. Tax increments can be used only in the same project area where they are generated.

Reno has both property tax and sales tax increment districts. The property tax increment districts are Project Area 1 (RDA #1) and Project Area 2 (RDA #2). The sales tax increment districts are Cabela's map, Freight House District map and Tessera map. The City Council has adopted guidelines for negotiating sales tax increment reimbursement agreements. The revenues from the increments are used to buy property, that is made available to developers, as an incentive to provide infrastructure (streets, sewer lines, sidewalks, etc.) needed for development, or to directly reimburse developers for preapproved projects.

My immediate interpretation of all this is Meruelo is seeking the new sales tax the arena (plus whatever the city would approve as a zone around it) generates to pay for building it.