CXLIX - FINAL thoughts on the Arizona Coyotes

[Shwan]

BTW... contrary to some beliefs (or wishful thinking)..... Craig Morgan is actually doing more work now at AllCity/PHNX than when he was mainly covering the Coyotes. Wouldn't even surprise me if his paycheck has grown.

Is that why everyone has bounced from PHNX and now is run by Leah Merrill and the Coyotes old Media relations guy? Sounds like they're taking in the dough

Also I thought he was only going to occasionally cover Utah what happened?

 

[TheLegend]

Is that why everyone has bounced from PHNX and now is run by Leah Merrill and the Coyotes old Media relations guy? Sounds like they're taking in the dough

Also I thought he was only going to occasionally cover Utah what happened?

Rich Nairn isn't involved with PHNX afaik.

Merrill is now in charge of content for all of PHNX Sports. Pretty hefty step up.

Morgan went up for the inaugural Utah game. But also covers the Cardinals and has churned out articles since the opening of training camp. Cardinals are the priority for him at the moment.

Steve Peters is sticking with covering hockey (ASU, High Schools (maybe) and Tucson)

 

[Shwan]

Rich Nairn isn't involved with PHNX afaik.

Merrill is now in charge of content for all of PHNX Sports. Pretty hefty step up.

Morgan went up for the inaugural Utah game. But also covers the Cardinals and has churned out articles since the opening of training camp. Cardinals are the priority for him at the moment.

Steve Peters is sticking with covering hockey (ASU, High Schools (maybe) and Tucson)

Excuse me. I gave Patrick Brown an undeserved promotion from content manager, but it seems if he still needs to work as a middle manager at Zip while also as PHNX's editor my point still stands that no one on PHNX's payroll, including Craig Morgan, is getting paid very well

(How you still blindly walk into these is a miracle I hope never ends).

 

[StreetHawk]

I could see more NBA owners coming into the league in the future. It just makes sense at this point if they have an arena. The NBA makes so much money with tv and the NHL is on the upswing having their buildings being in use for 82 days a year and taking the MLSE approach of sports assets gives them more value to show their own personal media deals or create their own streaming platforms.

Given that the next 3 markets that the NHL wants are NBA cities, ATL, Hou, AZ (even Utah that they just got to). Thus, the first expectation would be that the purchase of an NHL team would have to be by the NBA owner. Arena management agreement as they would be the primary tenant and thus have control. If they don't own the NHL club, then unlikely to see an NHL team owned by a different owner in the same arena as they are limited to just the revenue from their games. From what we currently have in the NHL, no NHL operates as a tenant to an NBA controlled arena. Only to one run by the city.

So, NHL to get into those markets are pretty much dependent on the NBA wanting an NHL team, plus pay the price that the NHL wants for it. Unless, of course, someone else wants to look into building another arena in a different county or something (which would involve other real estate) to make it viable.

 

[dj4aces]

Given that the next 3 markets that the NHL wants are NBA cities, ATL, Hou, AZ (even Utah that they just got to). Thus, the first expectation would be that the purchase of an NHL team would have to be by the NBA owner. Arena management agreement as they would be the primary tenant and thus have control. If they don't own the NHL club, then unlikely to see an NHL team owned by a different owner in the same arena as they are limited to just the revenue from their games. From what we currently have in the NHL, no NHL operates as a tenant to an NBA controlled arena. Only to one run by the city.

In HOU and PHX, yes. This thought is aided by the various arena situations in HOU and PHX, as well as the interest both Fertitta and Ishbia have shown for bringing the league in.

In ATL, no. The two main competing groups here have their proposed arena sites ~30mi north of the city for a reason. Tony Ressler, owner of the NBA's Hawks, isn't one of them. He may be one of the unnamed entities the league alluded to this past summer, as Daly told the AJC there's more than just the two seeking a franchise here. At the end of the day, it seems far more likely that the path to the NHL coming back to Georgia goes through Alpharetta, not into downtown.

 

[StreetHawk]

In HOU and PHX, yes. This thought is aided by the various arena situations in HOU and PHX, as well as the interest both Fertitta and Ishbia have shown for bringing the league in.

In ATL, no. The two main competing groups here have their proposed arena sites ~30mi north of the city for a reason. Tony Ressler, owner of the NBA's Hawks, isn't one of them. He may be one of the unnamed entities the league alluded to this past summer, as Daly told the AJC there's more than just the two seeking a franchise here. At the end of the day, it seems far more likely that the path to the NHL coming back to Georgia goes through Alpharetta, not into downtown.

Yep, outlined ATL in the 2nd paragraph. It's not a cheap venture as you are building an entire entertainment district in addiiton to the arena. So the potential owner has to have interests in real estate. Saw an interview with Mark Cuban and he said that one of the main reasons he sold the Mavs was because a lot of other owners are building up real estate around the arena and that's not his comfort zone, so best for the franchise that he sell to someone who had more interests/expertise in doing that.

NHL/NBA can share an arena. While not 100% ideal for an NBA team as their setup is more rectangular vs the NHL which is more oval shape for the seating. But, it does work much better vs MLB/NFL back in the day. MLS/NFL does work fine, but seating capacity is a massive difference with MLS only needing roughly 25K, with only a couple of exceptions like ATL/SEA who get over 40K vs the NFL's 70K. Lose that intimacy when 60% of the stadium is empty. Unless the NFL opts to build smaller stadiums and eliminate most of the upper decks to drop capacity down to 50-55K, but with Ten, Buf stadiums approved that doesn't appear to be the case in the near future.

 

[TheLegend]

Excuse me. I gave Patrick Brown an undeserved promotion from content manager, but it seems if he still needs to work as a middle manager at Zip while also as PHNX's editor my point still stands that no one on PHNX's payroll, including Craig Morgan, is getting paid very well

View attachment 915439

(How you still blindly walk into these is a miracle I hope never ends).

Seems to me you're simply manufacturing narratives here in face of any facts.

Pretty much all you have left at this point.

 

[TheLegend]

Well......

Was just listening to the local news and it appears TED was DOA whether it was voted on or not.

And no.... it wasn't because of Alex Meruelo.

Don't see the story posted yet but......

Tempe made a major mistake when they hired a social media evaluation company "Strategy 48" early on to get an idea of what the reaction to TED would be.

Problem came when they used a closed door meeting to discuss this business with employees often company. This has been under investigation since last year (story here)......

Tempe paid $32K to track Coyotes opponents. Now the city is under state investigation

The Arizona attorney general is looking into whether Tempe tried to influence the election outcome with public funds and broke open meeting laws.

www.azcentral.com

.....and the state's Attorney General said today Tempe did violate the Arizona Open Meetings Laws.

 

[PredsHead]

Well......

Was just listening to the local news and it appears TED was DOA whether it was voted on or not.

And no.... it wasn't because of Alex Meruelo.

Don't see the story posted yet but......

Tempe made a major mistake when they hired a social media evaluation company "Strategy 48" early on to get an idea of what the reaction to TED would be.

Problem came when they used a closed door meeting to discuss this business with employees often company. This has been under investigation since last year (story here)......

Tempe paid $32K to track Coyotes opponents. Now the city is under state investigation

The Arizona attorney general is looking into whether Tempe tried to influence the election outcome with public funds and broke open meeting laws.

www.azcentral.com

.....and the state's Attorney General said today Tempe did violate the Arizona Open Meetings Laws.

This story from a couple of days ago says the state attorney general cleared the city of any wrongdoing.....
Attorney General's Office dismisses complaint of alleged influencing of Coyotes referendum

Did something change?


Edit: Also it appears there was small issue with the open meetings law, but the state cleared the city of any wrongdoing. Link to the letter the city filed about this issue: Arizona Attorney General's Office makes determination on Strategy 48 contract and reports

 

[Shwan]

Seems to me you're simply manufacturing narratives here in face of any facts.

Pretty much all you have left at this point.

Well, considering you've been wrong about every possible thing involving the Coyotes for the last 3 years and have been reduced to taking my old talking points you vehemently tried (and failed) to argue against, what does that leave you with?

 

[Shwan]

Edit: oops seems like you're wrong about being wrong here and the state cleared Tempe after all.

 

[TheLegend]

This story from a couple of days ago says the state attorney general cleared the city of any wrongdoing.....
Attorney General's Office dismisses complaint of alleged influencing of Coyotes referendum

Did something change?

Evidently not. I was listening (not watching) to the news broadcast (ABC15) and could swear the reporter the AG had ruled it a violation and outlined a laundry list of corrections they demanded.

Then Craig Morgan happened to catch up with me in PHNX's discord and pointed me to another blog article that had included Tempe's press release last Friday. Went to TEmpe's site to confirm it.

So I went back to my post above and THOUGHT I had edited it to reflect all of that (including my mistake) and it didn't take.

I frequently use 3 different devices to access HF and I will try editing something from one of them and it doesn't go though. Currently on my PC but I was on the iPhone last night, and right now I just went to check to see of it's there..... and it's showing this post I'm currently composing (and I've never seen that).

I mean.... I did spend four hours in surgery that morning getting some things repaired yesterday, but I can't think the painkillers they gave me would do that to me.

 

[TheLegend]

Edit: oops seems like you're wrong about being wrong here and the state cleared Tempe after all.

Over that last 14 years I've been on here I've altered my opinions on things many times. I'm flexible.

As I was just explaining above I tried re-editing it about an hour after I posted it to reflect that, and it didn't take.

Even tried to catch the replay of the news last night to see if they had indeed said what I originally posted.

When I'm wrong.... I WILL admit it.

But you can continue to be you.

 

[aqib]

Over that last 14 years I've been on here I've altered my opinions on things many times. I'm flexible.

As I was just explaining above I tried re-editing it about an hour after I posted it to reflect that, and it didn't take.

Even tried to catch the replay of the news last night to see if they had indeed said what I originally posted.

When I'm wrong.... I WILL admit it.

But you can continue to be you.

We've all been wrong the last 15 years since the bankruptcy. If anyone had "they will stay for 15 years and then go to Utah" on their bingo card I'll be floored.

No one thought the NHL would own the team for 4 years, no one thought Glendale would pick up the losses TWICE, then once IA bought the team people thought that 5 years until the outclause kicked in was the next milestone, then when Glendale voided the lease few saw them staying in AZ in a new arena, then when the Tempe deal was on the ballot very few predicted it would fail that strongly, and then finally no one saw the move coming THIS year.

 

[Llama19]

More details in this article...

Attorney general: Tempe violated open meetings law on Coyotes' political contract

To quote:

"The Arizona Attorney General's Office issued a mixed decision about whether Tempe violated state laws leading up to the May 2023 Arizona Coyotes referendum, finding that the city violated transparency laws but did not use public cash to influence the election.

The Arizona Republic first reported on the investigation a year ago. It centered around accusations that Tempe hired a consulting firm called Strategy 48 to track opponents of the Arizona Coyotes’ $2.1 billion project proposal on social media in late 2022.

The Coyotes’ plan at the time was to build an NHL arena and entertainment district on 46 acres of Tempe-owned land. Residents decisively rejected the proposal during a special election on May 16, 2023, despite the project receiving unanimous support from the city’s elected officials.

Tempe 1st, a political group that opposed the project, accused Tempe of breaking Arizona law in two main ways when the Strategy 48 contract came to light in Fall 2023. Specifically, it said Tempe:

- Used public resources to promote the project’s approval on social media and paid Strategy 48 about $32,000 in public cash in an attempt to affect the election outcome.
- Violated public transparency laws to quietly approve the Strategy 48 contract and receive briefings from the consultant behind closed doors to avoid public scrutiny.

The Attorney General’s Office released its findings in two separate letters on Oct. 9. In one, it cleared the city on charges of misusing public funds, but in the other it determined Tempe broke state law three times in its dealings with Strategy 48.

The top-level findings from the decision letters include:

- Tempe’s hiring of Strategy 48 was legal because the contractor produced a “neutral” work product that wasn’t used to influence the election either way. Tempe officials who promoted the project on social media did not break any laws because they did not use public resources in that process.
- Tempe did violate public meeting laws when it received presentations from Strategy 48 behind closed doors in late 2022. That information was not exempt from state transparency laws like Tempe argued, so the city had an obligation to receive those briefings in front of the public."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2024/10/16/tempe-violated-meetings-law-on-coyotes/75678079007/

 

[TheLegend]

^^^^ Well gee…. I guess that confirms what I first heard on ABC15 was actually CORRECT and just missed some detail.

I'll even add that media bulletin issued by Tempe is somewhat misleading.

 

[Shwan]

No one thought the NHL would own the team for 4 years, no one thought Glendale would pick up the losses TWICE, then once IA bought the team people thought that 5 years until the outclause kicked in was the next milestone, then when Glendale voided the lease few saw them staying in AZ in a new arena, then when the Tempe deal was on the ballot very few predicted it would fail that strongly, and then finally no one saw the move coming THIS year.

I mean I can start linking all my old posts if you like, but it seems certain people get very upset when I bring receipts to a business forum for some reason

Yes no one could could have predicted the exact results of all of this but a lot of us accurately read the tea leaves over the last years.

Like the sportsbetting license being BS. Or the backup sites being fake. Or knowing the Tempe referendum was moot because Phoenix/Sky Harbor's case was a lot stronger than what Craig Morgan and Tempe let on. Or knowing the Scripps TV deal was the final nail in the coffin economically for the team.

Plenty of us knew the Coyotes were playing their last games in April, though.

 

[KevFu]

Yep, outlined ATL in the 2nd paragraph. It's not a cheap venture as you are building an entire entertainment district in addiiton to the arena. So the potential owner has to have interests in real estate. Saw an interview with Mark Cuban and he said that one of the main reasons he sold the Mavs was because a lot of other owners are building up real estate around the arena and that's not his comfort zone, so best for the franchise that he sell to someone who had more interests/expertise in doing that.

NHL/NBA can share an arena. While not 100% ideal for an NBA team as their setup is more rectangular vs the NHL which is more oval shape for the seating. But, it does work much better vs MLB/NFL back in the day. MLS/NFL does work fine, but seating capacity is a massive difference with MLS only needing roughly 25K, with only a couple of exceptions like ATL/SEA who get over 40K vs the NFL's 70K. Lose that intimacy when 60% of the stadium is empty. Unless the NFL opts to build smaller stadiums and eliminate most of the upper decks to drop capacity down to 50-55K, but with Ten, Buf stadiums approved that doesn't appear to be the case in the near future.

I think the investment you'd see more of would be NBA owners joining a would-be NHL owner as a minority partner; not in a "Let's partner up and fill our venue with two teams" but in a "let's get TWO arenas, one each, and share the spoils so neither of us has to worry about competition."

Basically the same scenario as sharing an arena, but with double the space, double the outside events and maximum revenues.

Look at Philly where the Sixers want to leave the NHL-controlled arena.
Or Los Angeles, where the Clippers have built their own arena.

 

[StreetHawk]

I think the investment you'd see more of would be NBA owners joining a would-be NHL owner as a minority partner; not in a "Let's partner up and fill our venue with two teams" but in a "let's get TWO arenas, one each, and share the spoils so neither of us has to worry about competition."

Basically the same scenario as sharing an arena, but with double the space, double the outside events and maximum revenues.

Look at Philly where the Sixers want to leave the NHL-controlled arena.
Or Los Angeles, where the Clippers have built their own arena.

Well, there are not many of those situations these days. Sixers doing that cause they are a tenant to the Flyers arena. I'd expect the same out of the Celtics if they are sold to a mega billionaire. Clips are tenants at the anshultz (kings and minor owner of Lakers) owned arena. Clippers paid for their own arena. Sixers seem like its private money as well.

Teams in Chicago/Dallas with different owners, for example share equally in the arena.

From a city/county pov, you're way better off with just 1 arena. Not something I suspect they are interested in doing. Are there that many dates for events where 2 arenas are needed?

 

[Shwan]

^^^^ Well gee…. I guess that confirms what I first heard on ABC15 was actually CORRECT and just missed some detail.

I'll even add that media bulletin issued by Tempe is somewhat misleading.

So we're back to you saying in 2023 "So this is a whole lot of not a whole lot" and now saying that this is apparently a big deal and could have derailed TED?

CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

So this is a whole lot of not a whole lot. I reckon Ron Tapscott decided to climb up on his soapbox again. He's more or less the Tempe version of Ken Jones. Anyway.... for those who can't access the article. The author submitted questions via email to the city and you can see their replies...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[TheLegend]

So we're back to you saying in 2023 "So this is a whole lot of not a whole lot" and now saying that this is apparently a big deal and could have derailed TED?

CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

So this is a whole lot of not a whole lot. I reckon Ron Tapscott decided to climb up on his soapbox again. He's more or less the Tempe version of Ken Jones. Anyway.... for those who can't access the article. The author submitted questions via email to the city and you can see their replies...

forums.hfboards.com

No.... we are saying things evolve over time and it *might* have been something.

 

[Shwan]

No.... we are saying things evolve over time and it *might* have been something.

"The fallout of this, had TED passed, could have (and probably WOULD have) been even a bigger shitshow."

What's also interesting here is that nothing has evolved on this topic. I literally laid out exactly the issue and you said it wasn't anything.

Here I am explaining that "informational messaging" would be the defining factor and the City's argument.

and I was right,

as usual,

almost a year before the results.

CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

That will absolutely suck for anyone who has to watch using this method. There's no way an informed fan isn't going to go out looking for pirated streams. God, I can't imagine watching a modern NHL game in 4:3. I've watched plenty of shitty junior A broadcasts with terrible quality, but even...

forums.hfboards.com

and based on all the times Glendale has held improper closed door meetings regarding the Coyotes and nothing ended up happening no one had an expectation that the State would have done anything about it.

For someone who is so adamant they admit their mistakes, this is absolutely hilarious. The supreme Irony is that had you stuck to your argument for once and not flip flopped like on everything else, you would have been right.

 

[TheLegend]

What's also interesting here is that nothing has evolved on this topic. I literally laid out exactly the issue and you said it wasn't anything.

Here I am explaining that "informational messaging" would be the defining factor and the City's argument.

and I was right,

as usual,

almost a year before the results.

CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

That will absolutely suck for anyone who has to watch using this method. There's no way an informed fan isn't going to go out looking for pirated streams. God, I can't imagine watching a modern NHL game in 4:3. I've watched plenty of shitty junior A broadcasts with terrible quality, but even...

forums.hfboards.com

and based on all the times Glendale has held improper closed door meetings regarding the Coyotes and nothing ended up happening no one had an expectation that the State would have done anything about it.

For someone who is so adamant they admit their mistakes, this is absolutely hilarious. The supreme Irony is that had you stuck to your argument for once and not flip flopped like on everything else, you would have been right.

For someone so obsessed with proving me wrong at every turn, you take a lot of liberties with context.

Glendale?? Thought we were talking about Tempe?

This recent revelation with Tempe just brought up something that could have happened in spite of what turned out. I was merely speculating that had TED actually passed and construction had already began we might have been looking at a scenario that was worse than what actually went down.

 

[Shwan]

For someone so obsessed with proving me wrong at every turn, you take a lot of liberties with context.

Glendale?? Thought we were talking about Tempe?

This recent revelation with Tempe just brought up something that could have happened in spite of what turned out. I was merely speculating that had TED actually passed and construction had already began we might have been looking at a scenario that was worse than what actually went down.

I don't need to prove you wrong, your posts do that for me all the time.

There was no "revelation" here. There has been zero new information that was presented since it was originally reported in 2023. I've literally sourced you the posts that were made at the time and you can't seem to process it. A Shame, really.

Further, why are you speculating at all? It's funny how Craig Morgan "happened" to point you this news on the super secret Coyotes fanboy discord but failed to mention Tempe had another bad day in Court last week and is looking at another year of pre trial motions before they'll inevitably settle on the IGA with Phoenix.

Civil Court Case Information - Case History

Superior Court Docket: Civil Court Case Information - Case History

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov

Why? because Craig nakedly lied to Coyotes fans about Sky Harbor's strength of position during the run up to the election and it would be an admission of guilt. The Tempe arena was doomed on January 1st 2023 when the FAA sent their official letter to Sky Harbor making the 65DNL lines official. That's a fact.

You can deflect, dodge, ignore the facts all you want it's fine. Everyone on this board knows I've never missed.

 

[KevFu]

Well, there are not many of those situations these days. Sixers doing that cause they are a tenant to the Flyers arena. I'd expect the same out of the Celtics if they are sold to a mega billionaire. Clips are tenants at the anshultz (kings and minor owner of Lakers) owned arena. Clippers paid for their own arena. Sixers seem like its private money as well.

Teams in Chicago/Dallas with different owners, for example share equally in the arena.

From a city/county pov, you're way better off with just 1 arena. Not something I suspect they are interested in doing. Are there that many dates for events where 2 arenas are needed?

This is what I mean though, the Dallas Mavericks are also exploring their own arena. Nothing serious yet on that front. But then you'd have two competing arenas, and the arrangement currently is splitting the business of that arena 50/50 for not NBA/NHL events. So do they (a) go 100% each on each arena and compete... OR do they protect themselves by trading 50/50 on both?