CXLIX - FINAL thoughts on the Arizona Coyotes

[TheLegend]

I could be completely off on this, as a very casual very outside observer. The impression I get is it is the laws and politics which is more the issue than ownership, fan support, arena location, etc.

Not as much as you may think.

There's been a long history of pro sports leagues in Arizona taking advantage of the public's generosity towards forking up funds to build them facilities. But IMO the recession in 2008 changed all that.

The Coyotes were probably the most publicized of them all (fueled by the revolving door of ownerships), but the other three major pro teams have contributed their own share of issues.

 

[aqib]

Not as much as you may think.

There's been a long history of pro sports leagues in Arizona taking advantage of the public's generosity towards forking up funds to build them facilities. But IMO the recession in 2008 changed all that.

The Coyotes were probably the most publicized of them all (fueled by the revolving door of ownerships), but the other three major pro teams have contributed their own share of issues.

The ability of citizens to overrule government while not unique to Arizona, isn't something every state has. Not every state lets citizens force an issue on the ballot. The whole Goldwater Institute threatening a lawsuit is also something I hadn't seen in other arena issues.

 

[TheLegend]

The ability of citizens to overrule government while not unique to Arizona, isn't something every state has. Not every state lets citizens force an issue on the ballot. The whole Goldwater Institute threatening a lawsuit is also something I hadn't seen in other arena issues.

Arizona legislature in recent years has been trying to make it more difficult for citizen initiatives to exist. Don’t see them having any success anytime soon but it also hasn’t stopped them from just ignoring them and coming up with a workaround.

 

[GKJ]

We are so back

 

[rojac]

So, let's say Seravalli is right and let's assume Ishiba is the one to buy an NHL franchise and that it is due to start play in 2029. That is 9 years after the renovations so maybe too early for the city to splurge more for renovations.. But I could see them being ready to support a renovation or a new arena in the 2032-2035 time period. I think if an agreement in place for a new or renovated building in the 2032-2035 period, the NHL would happily have an Arizona team play in an unrenovated Footprint for 3-6 years.

But as usual, I could be wrong.

Of course, the funniest result would be Ishiba buying the Jets and moving them to Arizona.

 

[StreetHawk]

So, let's say Seravalli is right and let's assume Ishiba is the one to buy an NHL franchise and that it is due to start play in 2029. That is 9 years after the renovations so maybe too early for the city to splurge more for renovations.. But I could see them being ready to support a renovation or a new arena in the 2032-2035 time period. I think if an agreement in place for a new or renovated building in the 2032-2035 period, the NHL would happily have an Arizona team play in an unrenovated Footprint for 3-6 years.

But as usual, I could be wrong.

Of course, the funniest result would be Ishiba buying the Jets and moving them to Arizona.

City has a lease with the suns til 2037. So no rush for them. But I do think the city knows they need to build a new one once the lease expires.

But no reason to look to build another one that quickly unless ishiba is willing to pay a greater portion of the costs to get an nhl team earlier and thus end the lease at footprint for the suns and go into the new arena. Assuming that the new arena remains in Phoenix and not Tempe or Scottsdale or somewhere else.

 

[LPHabsFan]

Ok so should we start the relocation clock now or wait or a bit?

 

[sneakytitz]

Ok so should we start the relocation clock now or wait or a bit?

I am getting the impression that the NHL is sold on Atlanta and they have a pick of the two, possibly three, groups that have reached out to them. I got to ask Vernon Krause tonight the likelihood of the NHL in Atlanta again if he signs off on the amendments to the MOU that was approved in May and if the TAD passes in November and he said he/Forsyth/Atlanta would be in a "very, very good place" in terms of getting an NHL franchise. He's met with Gary a few times that we know of, who knows how many times we don't.

All that pleasantry said, it would be foolish to move to 33 without a 34. I am sure their pick of the litter is Houston/Tillman but if he doesn't want to pay, Phoenix/Ishbia is fine. That is probably why we aren't hearing about expansion talk at yesterday's BOG meeting beyond "its all the talk behind the scenes". Atlanta is done but it won't be a factor until Houston or Phoenix or someone else is ready to put pen to paper.

Seems to me that Atlanta needs a dance partner as much as the NHL, and Phoenix's chances are looking better by the day.

 

[StreetHawk]

Seems to me that Atlanta needs a dance partner as much as the NHL, and Phoenix's chances are looking better by the day.

Do they though? I mean, it was 4 year difference between when LV and SEA came in in 2017 and 2021.

Plus, this isn't MLB which plays virtually everyday or the NFL which requires an even number of clubs so that they don't have to give out bye weeks in the first month or final 3 weeks of the season.

NHL/NBA can get by for multiple years with an odd number of teams.

NHL may finally be realizing that it's better to put teams where you truly want them than to give them to places which meet your expansion price. And to have them fully ready and hit the ground running on their timeline vs the NHL's. Seattle wasn't ready when LV was, so the NHL had to wait on them.

 

[sneakytitz]

Do they though? I mean, it was 4 year difference between when LV and SEA came in in 2017 and 2021.

There may have been a 4 year difference in the puck dropping but the NHL certainly knew that 31 and 32 were coming on board.

 

[Major4Boarding]

I’m gonna go a slightly different path here and say that Ishiba is the “Share-A-Pad” partner with another willing owner. And by willing I mean the right partner

 

[rt]

Anyone replying in this thread must also subscribe to the Clean Hits YouTube channel. That’s the rule.

 

[StreetHawk]

I’m gonna go a slightly different path here and say that Ishiba is the “Share-A-Pad” partner with another willing owner. And by willing I mean the right partner

He can always get other partners but he’d be the majority owner. No chance he is only the Suns majority owner and not the coyotes one. Arena management agreement. He wouldn’t want to go from having 100% control down to 50% control with the coyotes owner.

 

[hangman005]

So that's what "Talking Sticks" Agreed to host my flame thrower and fighting with fireworks convention.

 

[aqib]

There may have been a 4 year difference in the puck dropping but the NHL certainly knew that 31 and 32 were coming on board.

I think one lesson from that is that adding one team at a time does improve the chances of the teams being credible sooner.

The early 90s they added 5 teams in 3 seasons and then another 4 in 3 seasons from 98-2000. For a total of 9 teams in 9 years. We saw how many of them took a very long time to get decent. Sure you had the Wild make the playoffs their first year but that wasn't common.

Vegas and Seattle had a much better start coming in by themselves. So there is no reason why Atlanta can't be awarded in the next few months and then another team a year or two later. Let Houston/Portland/San Diego/Phoenix work on their situations until they are ready to apply.

 

[StreetHawk]

I think one lesson from that is that adding one team at a time does improve the chances of the teams being credible sooner.

The early 90s they added 5 teams in 3 seasons and then another 4 in 3 seasons from 98-2000. For a total of 9 teams in 9 years. We saw how many of them took a very long time to get decent. Sure you had the Wild make the playoffs their first year but that wasn't common.

Vegas and Seattle had a much better start coming in by themselves. So there is no reason why Atlanta can't be awarded in the next few months and then another team a year or two later. Let Houston/Portland/San Diego/Phoenix work on their situations until they are ready to apply.

Arenas are the main issue (along with the owner since we are talking about cities with nba teams this control over current arena is with them). So whatever timeline those applicants need the nhl will work with them on it.

No reason to force a 2027 decision if your desired locations are not ready until 2029 for example. There’s what like 2 maybe 3 days of the 180 odd game league year where all 32 clubs play?

 

[sneakytitz]

Arenas are the main issue (along with the owner since we are talking about cities with nba teams this control over current arena is with them). So whatever timeline those applicants need the nhl will work with them on it.

No reason to force a 2027 decision if your desired locations are not ready until 2029 for example. There’s what like 2 maybe 3 days of the 180 odd game league year where all 32 clubs play?

The problem is that Atlanta needs the greenlight 3 years prior (estimated construction timeline for the arena). The county bonds for The Gathering won't be available to Krause until the arena is halfway done and there is a considerable risk to building a massive arena without an anchor tenant.

Saw an NHL agent (can't remember who) say that they're likely not going to award an expansion until after the new CBA. He said the NHL doesn't want to go into negotiations flush with expansion cash.

 

[dj4aces]

Saw an NHL agent (can't remember who) say that they're likely not going to award an expansion until after the new CBA. He said the NHL doesn't want to go into negotiations flush with expansion cash.

Aye... I believe that was Allen Walsh. When I saw that at first, I thought "that's quite a ways away, why would they drag this out til September 2026?". Now, with the revelation that Bettman wants the new CBA agreed to by this coming June, before the Cup final? That sort of timeline makes a lot more sense to me.

 

[aqib]

Arenas are the main issue (along with the owner since we are talking about cities with nba teams this control over current arena is with them). So whatever timeline those applicants need the nhl will work with them on it.

No reason to force a 2027 decision if your desired locations are not ready until 2029 for example. There’s what like 2 maybe 3 days of the 180 odd game league year where all 32 clubs play?

I get that the 4 year gap between Vegas and Seattle was because of arena issues. If Seattle had been ready to have a team and applied in 2015 like Vegas did they would have gotten one then. But we have seen that both teams were more competitive sooner as a result of coming in by themselves when compared to teams that came in with a bunch of other teams. So while it was an accidental discovery why not learn from it?

 

[rojac]

I get that the 4 year gap between Vegas and Seattle was because of arena issues. If Seattle had been ready to have a team and applied in 2015 like Vegas did they would have gotten one then. But we have seen that both teams were more competitive sooner as a result of coming in by themselves when compared to teams that came in with a bunch of other teams. So while it was an accidental discovery why not learn from it?

i think the competitiveness had much more to d with the new expansion rules than it did with the teams coming in alone.

 

[aqib]

i think the competitiveness had much more to d with the new expansion rules than it did with the teams coming in alone.

They each had the expansion draft to themselves instead of having 3 other teams coming in at the same time.

 

[dj4aces]

They each had the expansion draft to themselves instead of having 3 other teams coming in at the same time.

Yeah, the VGK and SEA expansion drafts were staggered by four years, rather than having four teams start within three years, but the impact of the expansion draft rules plus the quality of players available today made things exceptionally better for VGK and SEA, compared to the rules and quality of players available to NSH, ATL, CBJ, and MIN.

That, I think, was more the point about mentioning the new expansion draft rules.

 

[Shwan]

Craig Morgan trying to keep his paycheck with his "anonymous" some more

 

[OG6ix]

I could see more NBA owners coming into the league in the future. It just makes sense at this point if they have an arena. The NBA makes so much money with tv and the NHL is on the upswing having their buildings being in use for 82 days a year and taking the MLSE approach of sports assets gives them more value to show their own personal media deals or create their own streaming platforms.

 

[TheLegend]

Since I know some people still like to lurk about the old F40 forum and cherry pick things from there.....

I'll continue to just link the whole article here since it isn't locked.....

Gary Bettman addresses the future of NHL hockey in Arizona

SALT LAKE CITY — Before the puck dropped on the Utah Hockey Club's first NHL game on Tuesday, Gary Bettman had a message for Arizona Coyotes fans in mourning.

gophnx.com

This podcast covers much of what the article has but saving people's time to run over to

https://x.com/i/web/status/1844755838931452392

BTW... contrary to some beliefs (or wishful thinking)..... Craig Morgan is actually doing more work now at AllCity/PHNX than when he was mainly covering the Coyotes. Wouldn't even surprise me if his paycheck has grown.