CXLIX - FINAL thoughts on the Arizona Coyotes

[Skidooboy]

My reason for Winnipeg not moving is the ownership group of the team stating they have never lost money, have no intention of moving the team, and will not move the team.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/winnipeg-jets-hockey-operations-profits-1.7171250#:~:text=True%20North%20has%20lost%20money,money%20in%20our%20NHL%20years.

the Yotes? " filed for bankruptcy in 2009 after incurring several hundred million dollars of losses since their move to Phoenix, Arizona from Winnipeg, Manitoba"

Phoenix Coyotes bankruptcy and sale - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

the 57 years of money losses and failure in AZ is NOTHING LIKE ANY OF THE MARKETS YOU MENTIONED.

The fact you have to pointless repeat your fact free take on the history of the Yotes for the last 25 years is an indication of your mistaken ideas not anyone else's....

The problem with your non-sense is that the same facts exist for Winnipeg moving, Minnesota moving, Quebec moving, etc, but you don't apply your facts the same way you do to anywhere in the south.

I'm not shifting goal posts on Phoenix - my stance is pretty clear: Saying a market is bad is just stupid because it's not the market, it's circumstance. And I've been saying the same thing consistently for about 25 years now on this site, wherever the non-sense relocation chatter rears its ugly head.

I said the same thing when there was a thread about Winnipeg's attendance. You know, the thread where you said "Attendance is meaningless" but now in this one you're intent on pointing out a low amount of fans in attendance or TV means the market isn't a viable market.

In Winnipeg, it's just the situation, the circumstance, you can see evidence of Fans everywhere. (Which is why I was on Winnipeg's side in that thread).

For all your talk of facts (which you're posting facts and then making an asinine conclusion that's just opinion from those facts), I'm asking you for something really, really, really simple:

What's the line of a "market can't work" vs "market can work, they're just gonna be near the bottom of the league" ?

Tell me what it is. X revenue? X percentage of revenue compared to everyone else? X TV viewers compared to everyone else?

Let's see the facts on X dollars isn't enough for a team to survive, or X viewers means no one is interested and the team isn't viable.

Oh yeah...notice how after the local ownership dried up NOT ONE SINGLE AZ ownership group stepped up to own the team?
Not one.

It was the NHL and a chain of liars conmen and scheisters and relocation hopefuls, All from everywhere BUT the Valley. And also NOT ONE of those mythical "Hockey Mad Scottsdale Billionaires" That all supposedly were just aching to buy hockey tickets stepped up to own the team..... or evebn provide much in the way of corporate support.

And that's all it takes...The team has to make money or have an invested owner willing to take the loss. AZ has had neither situation actually. so the team left...and here you are...still coming up wirth a myriad of answers that ignore 57 years of financial loss and failure.

and blaming the commute...like people from Boston don't have a worse one.

And that was my argument against the fear mongering pointed at Winnipeg.

So what you're saying is that things can look bad, but a good owner with a suitable venue can be committed to making it work, and that team will survive as long as that's the case. I fully agree.

But when the arena is old and needs replacement and the owner doesn't want to keep fighting, the team may relocate. And that has nothing to do with the market, that's just the circumstances Winnipeg was in. I agree with that, too.

I just apply that logic to everywhere, and you only apply it where you want to.

except for the y'know...making money part....which HOCKEY NEVER HAS IN AZ. PERIOD! in multiple leagues, locations, and situations.... NEVER ONCE HAS AN AZ TEAM MADE MONEY.

so quit blowing smoke out your butt and accept that single fact...and we can agree on a reality that comports with FACTS.

 

[awfulwaffle]

and blaming the commute...like people from Boston don't have a worse one.

Are you really comparing Boston to Phoenix and commutes? You do realize Phoenix has a limited light rail system, compared to the 4th busiest transit system in the country in Boston, which takes you to TD Garden? There was no rail that took you to Glendale's arena. Not really a fair comparison.

 

[KevFu]

Oh yeah...notice how after the local ownership dried up NOT ONE SINGLE AZ ownership group stepped up to own the team?
Not one.

Which happened in Winnipeg when the team was sold to Gluckstern and Milstein and relocated. But again, that's circumstance and not a "fact" proving a market sucks because it's Winnipeg, but "proof" Phoenix could never work.

And that's all it takes...The team has to make money or have an invested owner willing to take the loss. AZ has had neither situation actually. so the team left...and here you are...still coming up wirth a myriad of answers that ignore 67 years of financial loss and failure.

and blaming the commute...like people from Boston don't have a worse one.

What's funny is that your statement "all it takes...The team has to make money or have an invested owner willing to take the loss. AZ has had neither situation actually. so the team left..." is exactly what I said about Phoenix and Winnipeg, and the Islanders and everywhere else. And is 100% logically correct! You're RIGHT THERE!

You're saying NOT having that equals failure... But only in Phoenix (and Atlanta) but not Winnipeg!


With the Islanders it was THIRTY YEARS where they had neither. But when they had an owner who covered the losses they were fine, and now they're all good with their own arena that makes them money. That's circumstance, not the market, right?

So if it's true in Winnipeg and New York, why isn't it true everyone else who's population is somewhere in between?


Also, this 67 years stuff? You really think minor league teams moving means something when the only two currently still existing for over the last 67 years straight would be the Rochester Americans and Hershey Bears? (Am I missing someone? I don't think so). Using that as evidence that Phoenix sucks wouldn't bode well for Hamilton, or Quebec or anywhere else for that matter. Also the fact that the converse wouldn't be true: No one in their right mind would say Rochester and Hershey should be NHL cities and I'm from one of them.

 

[Skidooboy]

Which happened in Winnipeg when the team was sold to Gluckstern and Milstein and relocated. But again, that's circumstance and not a "fact" proving a market sucks because it's Winnipeg, but "proof" Phoenix could never work.



What's funny is that your statement "all it takes...The team has to make money or have an invested owner willing to take the loss. AZ has had neither situation actually. so the team left..." is exactly what I said about Phoenix and Winnipeg, and the Islanders and everywhere else. And is 100% logically correct! You're RIGHT THERE!

You're saying NOT having that equals failure... But only in Phoenix (and Atlanta) but not Winnipeg!


With the Islanders it was THIRTY YEARS where they had neither. But when they had an owner who covered the losses they were fine, and now they're all good with their own arena that makes them money. That's circumstance, not the market, right?

So if it's true in Winnipeg and New York, why isn't it true everyone else who's population is somewhere in between?


Also, this 67 years stuff? You really think minor league teams moving means something when the only two currently still existing for over the last 67 years straight would be the Rochester Americans and Hershey Bears? (Am I missing someone? I don't think so). Using that as evidence that Phoenix sucks wouldn't bode well for Hamilton, or Quebec or anywhere else for that matter. Also the fact that the converse wouldn't be true: No one in their right mind would say Rochester and Hershey should be NHL cities and I'm from one of them.

ok your ignorance is showing. after you once again started to spout ignorant lies. i quit reading.

1. Chipman and a winnipeg group tried to buy the Jets in 95/96 and was told NO by the BOG and Bettman.
it’ll take me days to find the interview but you could look it up if you go back through articles back to 1996 where he was openly in the press announcing intent to buy…. and one in 2012/13 i think where he talked about it., but he was part of a group that 100% tried to buy the jets and was told “single owner with arena deal already in place”
and a bunch of other caveats that basically said USA or nothing.

then he enacted a 15 year long plan to bring the NHL back…..


2 yes i consider 57 years of pro teams failing and lacking major local corporate support as evidence that the fan base and market is not strong enough to maintain an NHL franchise.

and VERY MUCH SO count the last 27 years the Yotes… who again…never once posted a profit, and Nobody wanted to pay for failed to succeed in two arenas under a myriad of owners regardless of on ice success or failure…. AND THE LITERAL NHL ITSELF DESPERATELY TRYING TO KEEP THE TEAM THERE AND FAIING.

since you can’t even admit that with out some ignorance fuelled bs about other markets and how AZ is a special snowflake ? I’m moving on.

enjoy the echo box of denialis here.

 

[Skidooboy]

Are you really comparing Boston to Phoenix and commutes? You do realize Phoenix has a limited light rail system, compared to the 4th busiest transit system in the country in Boston, which takes you to TD Garden? There was no rail that took you to Glendale's arena. Not really a fair comparison.

are you really comparing N AZ commute… sunshine breezes and blacktop. to
Boston TO Mtl NYC Detrot Edmonton
frozen streets in winter darkness, blizzards and potholes, and freezing rain? salt and mud sprayed windshields.

fans from all over boston and the other Northen cities with thier surrounding suburbs who drive as far or farther than people in AZ and you know it.

hell the west valley has grown steadily since the move to Glendale and is bigger all by itself than Winnipeg … if the riotous hokey mad AZ market is there? Glendale and the west valley should have been plenty enough for the yotes to make money.

 

[GrumpyKoala]

are you really comparing N AZ commute… sunshine breezes and blacktop. to
Boston TO Mtl NYC Detrot Edmonton
frozen streets in winter darkness, blizzards and potholes, and freezing rain? salt and mud sprayed windshields.

fans from all over boston and the other Northen cities with thier surrounding suburbs who drive as far or farther than people in AZ and you know it.

hell the west valley has grown steadily since the move to Glendale and is bigger all by itself than Winnipeg … if the riotous hokey mad AZ market is there? Glendale and the west valley should have been plenty enough for the yotes to make money.

Happens that people who live in pot hole ridden perma mud rain freeze winter of darkness love theirs hockey.