CXLIX - FINAL thoughts on the Arizona Coyotes
- Thread starter Tom ServoMST3K
- Start date
Voight
#winning
I wouldn't call them properly defunct, it's more of a Cleveland Browns type of thing for now.
Headshot77
We saw him heading straight for the mountains
Didn't Meurelo already give up though? He set his sights on the AHL relocating to Reno.
Boris Zubov
No relation to Sergei, Joe
So here's a what-if conundrum....What if Foley owned the team & they started in Glendale? Is the team viable & profitable?
TheLegend
"Just say it 3 times..."
Rumor was Foley might have looked into Arizona and moved them to Vegas but preferred to build from the ground up.
NHL Franchise to Las Vegas: Latest Details Surrounding Potential Team
Billionaire William Foley has been linked to potentially bringing an NHL franchise to Las Vegas as the league explores the possibility. Continue for updates. Updates from Wednesday, Nov...
syndication.bleacherreport.com
Glendale doesn’t work unless you own Westgate and the Coyotes. And neither were in great shape at the time. Bob Parsons ended up getting Westgate dirt cheap but wasn’t interested in being a pro franchise owner.
Boris Zubov
No relation to Sergei, Joe
I was around for the Foley rumor that had him taking the Yotes to Vegas. Always felt bogus & from what I recall it was never attributed to any legit sources.Rumor was Foley might have looked into Arizona and moved them to Vegas but preferred to build from the ground up.
NHL Franchise to Las Vegas: Latest Details Surrounding Potential Team
Billionaire William Foley has been linked to potentially bringing an NHL franchise to Las Vegas as the league explores the possibility. Continue for updates. Updates from Wednesday, Nov...syndication.bleacherreport.com
Glendale doesn’t work unless you own Westgate and the Coyotes. And neither were in great shape at the time. Bob Parsons ended up getting Westgate dirt cheap but wasn’t interested in being a pro franchise owner.
You're moving the goalposts a little, but If you believe Glendale doesn't work unless Westgate is also owned by the same individual, then hockey returning to the area is not happening anytime soon, if ever, unless Ishbia bids for an expansion franchise & either renovates Footprint yet again or builds a new arena. My point is, if a team cannot stand on their own without an entertainment district, they really have no business being in the market.
Add in the fact that the combined costs for a franchise & a new entertainment district are going to approach $5B by the time this rolls around, the prospects for a new team are pretty bleak, IMO.
Voight
#winning
He did, but the league still considers them inactive, as they hold onto their pipe dream of an NHL team there again.
Even though this was a relocation in all but name.
TheLegend
"Just say it 3 times..."
Agreed...
But it's not just Glendale.... it's anywhere. It's getting harder and harder for pro sports teams to make it on just an arena alone. Especially in the smaller markets.
Ishiba isn't a guarantee either. He's got full control of Footprint, but spending another $1.2 billion for an NHL franchise isn't going to bring enough return to quantify it. There has been talk about Phoenix creating a large sports entertainment district downtown and Ishiba could be part of it but it's only talk.
Sgt Schultz
Registered User
AZDesertKnight
Deactivated Coyotes Fan
These owners didn't have money.. pure and simple
Move on. Even if Meruelo won the TED vote he was never getting that thing built.
Move on. Even if Meruelo won the TED vote he was never getting that thing built.
AZDesertKnight
Deactivated Coyotes Fan
I was at the June 2nd 2022 Council meeting and fist bumped Alex Meruelo and Junior.. I wish I didn't!Fact Check: True
Good thing Craig Morgan lied up a storm and whipped the Coyotes fan base up for those Tempe hearings to make fools out themselves
voyageur
Hockey fanatic
- Jul 10, 2011
- 10,505
- 9,903
I don't know why people think an expansion franchise is worth $1.2 billion. Just because the league sold an existing franchise for $1.2 billion doesn't mean an expansion team is worth that. Maybe the number is only $800 million, an increase from the last expansion team at $650 million, which was $500 million when Vegas was admitted. That's a number more in line with the bottom of the league valuations. Which is where you start, and the market and success dictates the growth. I can see a realistic possibility of both Atlanta and Arizona awarded franchises in the next couple of years, and Gary Bettman retiring, having only screwed over the markets of Quebec and Hartford, in his tenure, which were unwanted markets when they were accepted to the NHL. Quebec may not have the votes to get in, and Hartford isn't even on the radar anymore.
TheLegend
"Just say it 3 times..."
My reasoning here....
It's $1.2 billion because that's what the NHL wanted for the next expansion.
Utah was originally to be an expansion location. Ryan Smith had first contacted the league nearly two years prior about it and was progressing on a track with Salt Lake City's bid for the Winter Olympics. But when Alex Meruelo ran into all the problems he created they facilitated the sale of teh Coyotes using the expansion price as a base point.
And for all intensive purposes.... Utah was a NEW team. Remember that Meruelo at that point still had control of any Arizona franchise for the next five years, and it was going to cost him at minimum $1 billion to reactivate it.
That....... and you also had Atlanta who was actually ahead of SLC in the process at that point and they needed to keep that expansion price up.
Now that Meruelo is out of the picture anyone could bring a franchise back to Arizona. But it'll start at the $1.2 billion.... possibly more by the time it comes around.
Headshot77
We saw him heading straight for the mountains
Wait until you see that the next expansion will be $2b per franchise
voyageur
Hockey fanatic
- Jul 10, 2011
- 10,505
- 9,903
I don't believe you can consider Utah a new team, in that Smith bought an organization that already had a front office in place, and a prospect pool. Realistically that is something that an expansion franchise has to build, when you look at Seattle, it's taken awhile. Prospects are a means to immediate improvement, which will be a task for any future expansion team. For both Vegas and Seattle they were more attractive markets than a lot of NHL markets so they have had no trouble with getting players to sign there, Vegas using the trade route and free agency, Seattle mostly free agency. Not sure Ariona or Atlanta will have the allure those two markets do, in getting off the ground, so I would remain conservative.
But maybe you are right, using Sportico's numbers every franchise is worth $1 billion, I suspect the Forbes numbers come in lower,
TheLegend
"Just say it 3 times..."
Smith only got the hockey ops department, coaching staff and player contracts in the deal.
He actually used his people from the Utah Jazz to initiate the move and spent the next 4-5 months hiring a front office for the hockey club. A few came from Arizona but they were all new hires from his perspective.
DustyDangler
Registered User
- Dec 20, 2023
- 1,297
- 2,123
No. Whether it is Ottawa, or the Rays or the Coyotes, I think it is clear the struggle teams face when they do not have an arena centrally located to their fan base. I do not think a smart owner such as Foley would've ever rolled with Glendale. It was a lack of good options kind of move (and an enrichment of a certain someone's real estate agenda) and a better to be in Glendale than Portland kind of thing.
AWA, should've been multi-purpose (20/20 hindsight) and the NHL should not have allowed Winnipeg 1.0 to leave a market with an arena problem to go to another market with an arena problem. The NHL has more recently shown a lot more care regarding expansion and relocation and I doubt we will see the Jets to Phoenix scenario again.
Ultimately, imho, the NHL can work in the desert with the essential ingredients of strong ownership, a centrally located arena, and a competitive on ice product, things the Coyotes never had.
Shwan
Registered User
If Smith walked away from the deal you'd be looking at best the league owning the team right now racking up another 8 digits of debt on the Coyotes behalf, and at worst having that roster and prospect pool broken up and divvied to the rest of the league.
The price had to satisfy the League (to pay off the mountain of Coyotes debt they had and needed a number large enough that wouldn't devalue the rest of the owners), Meruelo (who wanted a certain level of return on his "investment" to not sue the league) and Smith (who, while he was a very motivated buyer, didn't want to get outright fleeced).
This is why the most guarded secret in the League regarding the Coyotes is Andrew Barroway. After his run in with Aspen police for beating his wife he was indefinitely suspended from the league. Then in September 2023 we get this news that Meruelo wants to buy his 8%.
At the time I said that would be tricky because the valuation of the team would be a hard number and would likely affect financing for any new arena project. A few months later in November 2023 Michael Andlauer sells his 10% of the Canadiens to get a monster $2.5B valuation for Montreal and now things are super hairy.
So we hear nothing about Barroway until Josh Doan's first game where he's spotted in the owners Box with Shane.
Fascinating for a man who's supposed to be still suspended from all league activities to be there.....as an owner at least.
This is further evidence of the idea that the League really defacto owned the team through the Meruelo years via control of the vast majority of the debt the team has accrued. We heard nothing of Barroway getting a payoff from Smith's sale which also lends to this theory.
All of this to say is the assumption here is correct that there were WAY too many variables in play to think the sale price of the Coyotes was commensurate with its actual value, but a nice round $1B price tag for the team itself (the $200M was the relocation fee) was a number that was satisfactory for all parties.
As the saying goes "it's worth what people
Last edited:
TheLegend
"Just say it 3 times..."
Well I'll be..........
www.latimes.com
[paywall.... but can be beaten]
The person who was instrumental in operating a pipeline to USC for wealthy donors at Mater Dei High School also helped Alex Meruelo put two of his children into USC (including Alex Jr.). Ultimately led to a position with the Coyotes.
Pretty much shows Alex Meruelo really wasn't afraid to spend money where it mattered.
Update:
Murphy is still with the team in Utah.
At Mater Dei, a unique link to USC's secret admission system for donors' kids
The former president of this Orange County school helped affluent students enter USC as walk-on athletes — a route that the university now acknowledges as fraud.
www.latimes.com
[paywall.... but can be beaten]
The person who was instrumental in operating a pipeline to USC for wealthy donors at Mater Dei High School also helped Alex Meruelo put two of his children into USC (including Alex Jr.). Ultimately led to a position with the Coyotes.
Pretty much shows Alex Meruelo really wasn't afraid to spend money where it mattered.
Update:
Murphy is still with the team in Utah.
Last edited:
I wonder what the Nevada gaming authorities think about this, one of their licensees and the word fraud in the same article would likely cause some issues? Also does this cause any issues with the new arena in Reno since it involves an agreement with the University of Nevada?Well I'll be..........
At Mater Dei, a unique link to USC's secret admission system for donors' kids
The former president of this Orange County school helped affluent students enter USC as walk-on athletes — a route that the university now acknowledges as fraud.
[paywall.... but can be beaten]
The person who was instrumental in operating a pipeline to USC for wealthy donors at Mater Dei High School also helped Alex Meruelo put two of his children into USC (including Alex Jr.). Ultimately led to a position with the Coyotes.
Pretty much shows Alex Meruelo really wasn't afraid to spend money where it mattered.
Update:
Murphy is still with the team in Utah.
I'm also a bit intrigued by the timing of this, why would this come out now? Unless I am missing something, all these stories are several years old and Murphy has been with Arizona/Utah for years now. What changed that caused this story to drop?
TheLegend
"Just say it 3 times..."
Meruelo bought the Grand Sierra Resort - Reno in 2010. He's had 14 years to develop a relationship with Reno and Nevada state gaming officials. This story talks about events in or around 2015.
Hard to say about timing... from Googling the school, Mater Dei has been the subject of problems the past few years, including a hazing incident. There have been at least three changes at the president's position since Patrick Murphy left (presumably for the Coyotes)
The person in question here is Murphy, who was the president of Mater Dei when these events allegedly went down. And Alex Meruelo wasn't the only individual who had a child or relative that benefited from Murphy's connections with USC.
Since there's no record to date of any donations or payments (AIUI.... Meruelo and USC both are denying any were made) then there's not much to go on.
Guess we'll have to wait as see if this story gets any traction. First impression you get though is was this another "Varsity Blues" case?
Footnote: Patrick Murphy is still on the staff in Utah and they are aware of the story.
AZDesertKnight
Deactivated Coyotes Fan
That's wild that Pat Murphy made the cut to Utah. He's as big of a Meruelo clown as all the rest.
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