CXLIX - FINAL thoughts on the Arizona Coyotes

[AZDesertKnight]

I don't need to prove you wrong, your posts do that for me all the time.

There was no "revelation" here. There has been zero new information that was presented since it was originally reported in 2023. I've literally sourced you the posts that were made at the time and you can't seem to process it. A Shame, really.

Further, why are you speculating at all? It's funny how Craig Morgan "happened" to point you this news on the super secret Coyotes fanboy discord but failed to mention Tempe had another bad day in Court last week and is looking at another year of pre trial motions before they'll inevitably settle on the IGA with Phoenix.

Civil Court Case Information - Case History

Superior Court Docket: Civil Court Case Information - Case History

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov

View attachment 917447


Why? because Craig nakedly lied to Coyotes fans about Sky Harbor's strength of position during the run up to the election and it would be an admission of guilt. The Tempe arena was doomed on January 1st 2023 when the FAA sent their official letter to Sky Harbor making the 65DNL lines official. That's a fact.

You can deflect, dodge, ignore the facts all you want it's fine. Everyone on this board knows I've never missed.

This is a masterclass post right here. Bravo!

 

[Sgt Schultz]

All the bickering aside, what we learned from the Coyotes is a lot more limited and simple than people may think. If you put a team in a big and growing market, stick it first in an arena that sucks for hockey, then in one as far away from the geographic center of the fanbase as possible, add in some ownership where the hockey team was not their first interest, and probably not their second, it will fail. It was almost like an experiment in how much abuse a franchise can take and stay afloat.

The only thing we learned about the market is it won't go to the ends of the earth to consistently support a subpar team owned by a buffoon or non-dedicated owner.

All the posts on X/Twitter, Facebook, or various blogs resurrecting the possibility of hockey returning to the valley are nothing more than gossip until the arena situation situation and ownership stability questions get answered.

While there is a potential answer to the ownership question, the arena question has a much longer lead time and probably a higher "burden of proof," given the history.

 

[Voight]

I don't need to prove you wrong, your posts do that for me all the time.

There was no "revelation" here. There has been zero new information that was presented since it was originally reported in 2023. I've literally sourced you the posts that were made at the time and you can't seem to process it. A Shame, really.

Further, why are you speculating at all? It's funny how Craig Morgan "happened" to point you this news on the super secret Coyotes fanboy discord but failed to mention Tempe had another bad day in Court last week and is looking at another year of pre trial motions before they'll inevitably settle on the IGA with Phoenix.

Civil Court Case Information - Case History

Superior Court Docket: Civil Court Case Information - Case History

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov

View attachment 917447


Why? because Craig nakedly lied to Coyotes fans about Sky Harbor's strength of position during the run up to the election and it would be an admission of guilt. The Tempe arena was doomed on January 1st 2023 when the FAA sent their official letter to Sky Harbor making the 65DNL lines official. That's a fact.

You can deflect, dodge, ignore the facts all you want it's fine. Everyone on this board knows I've never missed.

Source: trust me bro

 

[Boris Zubov]

All the bickering aside, what we learned from the Coyotes is a lot more limited and simple than people may think. If you put a team in a big and growing market, stick it first in an arena that sucks for hockey, then in one as far away from the geographic center of the fanbase as possible, add in some ownership where the hockey team was not their first interest, and probably not their second, it will fail. It was almost like an experiment in how much abuse a franchise can take and stay afloat.

The only thing we learned about the market is it won't go to the ends of the earth to consistently support a subpar team owned by a buffoon or non-dedicated owner.

All the posts on X/Twitter, Facebook, or various blogs resurrecting the possibility of hockey returning to the valley are nothing more than gossip until the arena situation situation and ownership stability questions get answered.

While there is a potential answer to the ownership question, the arena question has a much longer lead time and probably a higher "burden of proof," given the history.

While I mainly agree with everything you're saying, it turned out there was no "geographic center" to their fanbase. They could barely sell out at Mullett. The TV ratings were atrocious. The market just had no appetite for hockey. Sure there were diehards, but not nearly enough to support an NHL team.

 

[TheLegend]

This is a masterclass post right here. Bravo!

Your standards have to be tremendously low then.

I don't need to prove you wrong, your posts do that for me all the time.

Of course..... you feel you have to be the smartest guy in the room while I like to toss things around. So let's dive in shall we??

There was no "revelation" here. There has been zero new information that was presented since it was originally reported in 2023. I've literally sourced you the posts that were made at the time and you can't seem to process it. A Shame, really.

No revelation?? I'd say a final decision from the AG's office on the matter was something of substance. My initial reaction was this could have been a bigger shit show had TED actually passed the OML violation led to the ordinance authorizing the vote. Of course it went down so it's a moot point.

Further, why are you speculating at all? It's funny how Craig Morgan "happened" to point you this news on the super secret Coyotes fanboy discord but failed to mention Tempe had another bad day in Court last week and is looking at another year of pre trial motions before they'll inevitably settle on the IGA with Phoenix.

Why not? People have spent the last 15 years in this forum speculating things. This is no different. I mean..... why were you even speculating above on Craig Morgan's ability to make a paycheck.

He's doing quite fine from what I can gather. Wished I could afford to spend a month vacationing in Europe like he did recently.

As far as how Craig Morgan told me?? He just happened to be on the discord at the time I was posting about it. It was pure coincidence. I just did a little more digging after that.

And what about the IGA?? This is just more crap you're piling on to obscure things.

Civil Court Case Information - Case History

Superior Court Docket: Civil Court Case Information - Case History

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov

View attachment 917447


Why? because Craig nakedly lied to Coyotes fans about Sky Harbor's strength of position during the run up to the election and it would be an admission of guilt. The Tempe arena was doomed on January 1st 2023 when the FAA sent their official letter to Sky Harbor making the 65DNL lines official. That's a fact.

And?? Sure..... the FAA declaration sets the zones. It's also a fact that there are required guidelines in place IF you build housing units in those zones.

You can deflect, dodge, ignore the facts all you want it's fine. Everyone on this board knows I've never missed.

Not dodging anything....

You made a mistake (albeit a small clerical one) and now trying to deflect it by piling more crap on top.

Just like I made a mistake earlier not verifying what I had heard on the news FIRST. The only difference being I OWNED UP TO IT by posting exactly what I attempted to do.

So yes..... you DO miss at times.... everyone here has over the course of time. Only instead of simply admitting to it you just break out the shovel hoping you can bury it.

 

[TheLegend]

All the bickering aside, what we learned from the Coyotes is a lot more limited and simple than people may think. If you put a team in a big and growing market, stick it first in an arena that sucks for hockey, then in one as far away from the geographic center of the fanbase as possible, add in some ownership where the hockey team was not their first interest, and probably not their second, it will fail. It was almost like an experiment in how much abuse a franchise can take and stay afloat.

The only thing we learned about the market is it won't go to the ends of the earth to consistently support a subpar team owned by a buffoon or non-dedicated owner.

All the posts on X/Twitter, Facebook, or various blogs resurrecting the possibility of hockey returning to the valley are nothing more than gossip until the arena situation situation and ownership stability questions get answered.

While there is a potential answer to the ownership question, the arena question has a much longer lead time and probably a higher "burden of proof," given the history.

I thought Frank Seravalli's comment about a return to Arizona in five years was overly optimistic. Almost unrealistic. Now if it were five years down the road and that process was just beginning it becomes a little more believable. But all the things you mentioned have to be resolved well before that.

 

[StreetHawk]

I thought Frank Seravalli's comment about a return to Arizona in five years was overly optimistic. Almost unrealistic. Now if it were five years down the road and that process was just beginning it becomes a little more believable. But all the things you mentioned have to be resolved well before that.

Realistically, it was insanely optimistic for NHL to return to AZ in 5 years. Most realistic timeline is closer to when the Suns lease expires. Whether that is in PHX or another city/county that would build a Dual Purpose arena for both clubs. I don't think an NHL team alone would convince a city to build a new arena. Makes more sense to try to get the suns as well if they are contributing to a new arena.

 

[aqib]

While I mainly agree with everything you're saying, it turned out there was no "geographic center" to their fanbase. They could barely sell out at Mullett. The TV ratings were atrocious. The market just had no appetite for hockey. Sure there were diehards, but not nearly enough to support an NHL team.

Thats why I always questioned the argument that the arena location was the only problem.

 

[Shwan]

No revelation?? I'd say a final decision from the AG's office on the matter was something of substance. My initial reaction was this could have been a bigger shit show had TED actually passed the OML violation led to the ordinance authorizing the vote. Of course it went down so it's a moot point.

This was your initial reaction:

So this is a whole lot of not a whole lot.

I reckon Ron Tapscott decided to climb up on his soapbox again. He's more or less the Tempe version of Ken Jones.

Anyways.

As far as how Craig Morgan told me?? He just happened to be on the discord at the time I was posting about it. It was pure coincidence. I just did a little more digging after that.

Again, this explains so, so much about the last 3 years on this board.

You made a mistake (albeit a small clerical one) and now trying to deflect it by piling more crap on top.

Not sure where I made a mistake here. You posted in 2023 that this was "whole lot of not a whole lot" and now you're saying this could have been a big deal. I've proven to you that the information you had access to in 2023 is the same information you have now, so your "evolving situation" excuse is not valid.

So yes..... you DO miss at times.... everyone here has over the course of time. Only instead of simply admitting to it you just break out the shovel hoping you can bury it.

Nah, don't think I have. You can ask on your secret fanboy diehard discord about the end of the Meruelo's first year with his gambling license, before the AZ DOG gave up caring because 6 books account for 95% of tax revenue and they can't get anyone to fill the openings.

and you can definitely ask Craig Morgan what Andrew Barroway was doing at Josh Doan's first game if he was supposed to be indefinitely suspended by the league as an owner.

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

I'll always feel bad for the Yotes.. I still don't understand why they ever moved out of Phoenix in the first place?

 

[StreetHawk]

I'll always feel bad for the Yotes.. I still don't understand why they ever moved out of Phoenix in the first place?

Arena. Footprint only designed for NBA. Only like 12K of unobstructed seats or less. Plus, arena management agreement belonged to the suns, so Coyotes were only getting game day arena revenues only. No NHL team is currently a tenant to an NBA controlled arena.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Thats why I always questioned the argument that the arena location was the only problem.

Same. The east valley-west valley location was always irrelevant. Half the valley would always be bitching, even if the team was still downtown. The TV numbers told the real story...even when the team stinks there still should be some fans tuning in. I posted the ratings for either 22-23 or 21-22 in an earlier version of the megathread & it showed they were only drawing 1200 fans per game on TV! That's untenable in a market of 5+ million people.

 

[Shwan]

Same. The east valley-west valley location was always irrelevant. Half the valley would always be bitching, even if the team was still downtown. The TV numbers told the real story...even when the team stinks there still should be some fans tuning in. I posted the ratings for either 22-23 or 21-22 in an earlier version of the megathread & it showed they were only drawing 1200 fans per game on TV! That's untenable in a market of 5+ million people.

Meruelo's final dirty secret is he doesn't want you to know how many people in Utah were watching Coyotes games compared to Phoenix that last season.