OT: COVID-19- March 17 2020 - No politics! Read post #1

[Jojalu]

I think one way to maintain strong demand is to provide the moolah directly to households and some small business; big firms don't need bailouts; if there is domestic demand (especially the middle class in Canada and globally); demand would be maintained and supply will increase to keep up as businesses like to make money

Once middle class spends money; lower middle class automatically gets jobs. IMO all the policies should be directed at maintaining middle class demand and not freakin' put more money into rich folks' bank accounts.

Demand is the ultimate driver; they have to maintain strong demand. If businesses try to limit the supply to bid up the prices then governments should have penalties on them for trying to monopolize the system; i mean it is not rocket science or quantum physics; it is common sense; hopefully governments across the globe act in unity and work this way.

Central banks are already partnering up globally to have similar decisions; fiscal decisions have to be done in unity as well IMO; time to work together is right NOW!!!!

Couldn't agree more. Talking to my buddy who is in the shipping industry. He informed this morning that the prices are escalating quickly. He has already locked into agreements and he has to lose money on some accounts to appease the customer and fufill his word.

Tar and feather those who seek to profiteer

 

[thewave]

Couldn't agree more. Talking to my buddy who is in the shipping industry. He informed this morning that the prices are escalating quickly. He has already locked into agreements and he has to lose money on some accounts to appease the customer and fufill his word.

Tar and feather those who seek to profiteer

It's going to be a massacre economically. Like a virus that makes 30% of people too poor to eat unless they figure it out quick.

 

[FraumBallard]

Yup. I don't think people realize what a disservice they do to their kids and their immune systems by sanitizing the world to death.

More than enough germs around to justify sanitizing your hands.
It's just good basic hygiene.
That's a good thing.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I hear ya man; and I see your point; just because it is a FACT doesn't mean society as a whole has to compensate people who live beyond their means was what I was trying to say.

Simply put; if my neighbour is into gambling and loses all of their money; why the hell should I compensate my neighbour for his poor choices?

So if these folks were making 100K a year but did not report their income then that means they should have extra dollars stashed up; if they decided to "spend" that extra dollars while lying on their tax forms then quite frankly it is their fault - even if it is fact - I don't want government to use my tax dollars to help people who make poor lifestyle choices or lie to cheat the system while I declare my entire income on the tax forms.

Do you see what I am trying to say?

We are on the same page really. Outside of my Leaf tickets and golf fees I try to do everything as inexpensively as I can. and if I make bad choices and my businesses don't do well then it is on me.
My issue with this virus thing is really these kids did not even stand a chance. Graduate school with 50K debt, then can't find a job in your field so you continue on serving until you do and then you got a wife and a kid and you are 26 years old. The government says to you this week we are closing down your restaurant even though it is doing really well. So your boss gives you layoff notice. and so you go to pogey and then they tell you sorry we can only give you enough to live in Hamilton. Well heh he has a lease in place so can't move to Hamilton that fast and his place of business says we want you back the second we can serve again. But we don't know when. My point these are the people we should be helping out. Not you and me who have the funds. This is probably more a Toronto thing due to real estate but I guess lesson learned here is live in Grimsby and commute.

 

[Its not your fault]

Sad part is the service industry that gets to work threw this and gets zero percs because they must work threw this.

 

[PromisedLand]

Couldn't agree more. Talking to my buddy who is in the shipping industry. He informed this morning that the prices are escalating quickly. He has already locked into agreements and he has to lose money on some accounts to appease the customer and fufill his word.

Tar and feather those who seek to profiteer

Yup this is where sound fiscal policies have to be applied; if the prices escalate like crazy then maintaining demand is going to be very hard; as there is going to be less and less dollars available for household to buy the same stuff.

Really lame example but to drive my point home:
Whats the point of giving dollars to households if the price of bread and water increase 50%? this is businesses trying to jack up prices on purpose to make more money but supplying less and quite frankly it is severely unethical. Governments need to think fast and enforce these policies and include penalties for businesses trying to take advantage of the situation especially in a time like now where poeple's lives are at stake. It is quite frankly disgusting!!!

If the world ever needed a sound Keynsian economic decision making it is NOW!!!

 

[Jojalu]

It's going to be a massacre economically. Like a virus that makes 30% of people too poor to eat unless they figure it out quick.

That is becoming the biggest concern for sure.

As great as all the news out of China is that they have slowed the virus to a crawl,, it is because they took such extreme measures. Or at least the experts believe that.

 

[Its not your fault]

Also imagine how much waste there will be if ppl are allowed to return unused items.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Yup this is where sound fiscal policies have to be applied; if the prices escalate like crazy then maintaining demand is going to be very hard; as there is going to be less and less dollars available for household to buy the same stuff.

Really lame example but to drive my point home:
Whats the point of giving dollars to households if the price of bread and water increase 50%? this is businesses trying to jack up prices on purpose to make more money but supplying less and quite frankly it is severely unethical. Governments need to think fast and enforce these policies and include penalties for businesses trying to take advantage of the situation especially in a time like now where poeple's lives are at stake. It is quite frankly disgusting!!!

If the world ever needed a sound Keynsian economic decision making it is NOW!!!

No smaller businesses are getting containers or vessels right now. Bottom line the auto companies and large retailers have massive shortages on supplies and they don't want to lay off hundreds of thousands of workers in US and Canada. So guess what happens as these companies are paying 50% more for containers and vessels? The shipping industry is getting overapid as manufactures compete. I don't think you can change free enterprise here on this issue. Unless governments stepped in and decided who gets containers and vessels. It is what it is. It isn't unethical because the Chinese shut down shipping for 6 weeks. Da shipping companies had to comply. It will get back to normal slowly. Until then pay da price or don't.

 

[PromisedLand]

We are on the same page really. Outside of my Leaf tickets and golf fees I try to do everything as inexpensively as I can. and if I make bad choices and my businesses don't do well then it is on me.
My issue with this virus thing is really these kids did not even stand a chance. Graduate school with 50K debt, then can't find a job in your field so you continue on serving until you do and then you got a wife and a kid and you are 26 years old. The government says to you this week we are closing down your restaurant even though it is doing really well. So your boss gives you layoff notice. and so you go to pogey and then they tell you sorry we can only give you enough to live in Hamilton. Well heh he has a lease in place so can't move to Hamilton that fast and his place of business says we want you back the second we can serve again. But we don't know when. My point these are the people we should be helping out. Not you and me who have the funds. This is probably more a Toronto thing due to real estate but I guess lesson learned here is live in Grimsby and commute.

Agreed but that was my point to begin with. Why live in a 2500 dollar apartment; live beyond your means? And if that is the lifestyle choice you make fine; but don't ask me (my tax dollars) to compensate you now.

I live a modest life, don't live large, live within my means and declare my entire income on tax forms; why should I be affected by someone eles's poor choices? How am I going to impacted?

I live a modest life; government bails the people who live large; tomorrow govt raises taxes to reduce their debt; my modest living gets impacted even more; meanwhile people that live large had a better life? that does not make sense to me and quite frankly it is downright wrong. And we take "me" and apply that to all the households in Canada who don't cheat the system; why should they be impacted to help the folks that want to live large?

Hey I had student debt; I went to grad school with scholarship (i studied my ass off and did not party, invested time to get my grades up instead of spending time doing other crap); lived like a cheap bastard; paid it off while living like a cheap bastard; did not have fancy cars or hot girlfriends who only wanted to go out with "cool dudes with fancy cars"; i was fine with it; now i am debt free but I made sacrifices for that. I am sure there are many Canadians who lived like I did; why should we compensate people with bad lifestyle choices is the thing.

In a free market economy sound decisions survive bad decisions fail and fizzle out; this is not only true for businesses but households/individuals too.

Now if someone was working 2 jobs to suppor their family; while not living large sure they definitely need help; I am 100% behind the policies that are designed to help them even if it means me paying more taxes; I am absolutely against compensating people with tax dollars who live large, lie on their tax forms. I mean if they want to live large and beyond their means fine... do it on your own dime; not with my dollars. Why should the social progams for poor suffer to help the dumbasses who lived downtown living large when the income wasn;;t there and also lied on their tax returns?

For families in need who really need help who tried to do everything they can to make ends meet and not lie/cheat the system living within their means I am fully behind it!!! The other kind like we've discussed I am completely against it! They can go live with their parents or whatever.... I refuse to support their living large lifestyle with my tax dollars at the expense of social programs for the poor or families that really need help.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

That is becoming the biggest concern for sure.

As great as all the news out of China is that they have slowed the virus to a crawl,, it is because they took such extreme measures. Or at least the experts believe that.

Combination in my opinion between measures and 30 degree plus heat there again now. Several Ivy league med schools/hospitals have now said once temp above 26 degrees Cel that virus does not transmit as well.

 

[PromisedLand]

No smaller businesses are getting containers or vessels right now. Bottom line the auto companies and large retailers have massive shortages on supplies and they don't want to lay off hundreds of thousands of workers in US and Canada. So guess what happens as these companies are paying 50% more for containers and vessels? The shipping industry is getting overapid as manufactures compete. I don't think you can change free enterprise here on this issue. Unless governments stepped in and decided who gets containers and vessels. It is what it is. It isn't unethical because the Chinese shut down shipping for 6 weeks. Da shipping companies had to comply. It will get back to normal slowly. Until then pay da price or don't.

Free enterprise should not be changed sure.... but in special circumstances like right now; inventive and special policies have to be implemented for the businesses trying to take advantage of the system. If during financial crisis; financial firms were the crooks that got away; at a time like now it is the "shipping firms" who are trying to get away; and policies should be in place to monitor them.

Or government can use military to get shipments to the stores and the shipping industry can seriously go F-OFF if they are not going to be reasonable.

Inventive outside the box thinking is required. In the end, government's role is the social and economic welfare of the entire country not the select few like this "shipping firms" trying to take advantage of the situation. The social cost of what shipping firms are trying to do is way too big for it to be allowed.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Agreed but that was my point to begin with. Why live in a 2500 dollar apartment; live beyond your means? And if that is the lifestyle choice you make fine; but don't ask me (my tax dollars) to compensate you now.

I live a modest life, don't live large, live within my means and declare my entire income on tax forms; why should I be affected by someone eles's poor choices? How am I going to impacted?

I live a modest life; government bails the people who live large; tomorrow govt raises taxes to reduce their debt; my modest living gets impacted even more; meanwhile people that live large had a better life? that does not make sense to me and quite frankly it is downright wrong. And we take "me" and apply that to all the households in Canada who don't cheat the system; why should they be impacted to help the folks that want to live large?

Hey I had student debt; I went to grad school with scholarship (i studied my ass off and did not party, invested time to get my grades up instead of spending time doing other crap); lived like a cheap bastard; paid it off while living like a cheap bastard; did not have fancy cars or hot girlfriends who only wanted to go out with "cool dudes with fancy cars"; i was fine with it; now i am debt free but I made sacrifices for that. I am sure there are many Canadians who lived like I did; why should we compensate people with bad lifestyle choices is the thing.

In a free market economy sound decisions survive bad decisions fail and fizzle out; this is not only true for businesses but households/individuals too.

Now if someone was working 2 jobs to suppor their family; while not living large sure they definitely need help; I am 100% behind the policies that are designed to help them even if it means me paying more taxes; I am absolutely against compensating people with tax dollars who live large, lie on their tax forms. I mean if they want to live large and beyond their means fine... do it on your own dime; not with my dollars. Why should the social progams for poor suffer to help the dumbasses who lived downtown living large when the income wasn;;t there and also lied on their tax returns?

For families in need who really need help who tried to do everything they can to make ends meet and not lie/cheat the system living within their means I am fully behind it!!! The other kind like we've discussed I am completely against it! They can go live with their parents or whatever.... I refuse to support their living large lifestyle with my tax dollars at the expense of social programs for the poor or families that really need help.

Well good news is Toronto real estate is going to get hammered over next few months. There are way too many kids living way over their heads in condos and apartments. And with Chinese not allowed to come in now I think you will see a 30-40% correction pretty quickly. There are going to be many families in much much worse spots as they are going to be upside down. Their equity completely wiped out by debt they took on. At that point people turn over their keys to da banks and banks auction off to highest bidder.

 

[Warden of the North]

Also imagine how much waste there will be if ppl are allowed to return unused items.

There needs to be a concerted effort on the media/governments behalf to get unwanted unused items to food banks etc when this is "over"

 

[pepperMonkey]

Because then I'd have angst that I was an idiot a bailed when I should have followed the advice of every financial expert.

Well, unless those financial experts are rich themselves or at least much more well off than you (and if they were, would they still be working?) I'm not sure how much stock I would give their advice. It's one thing to listen to guys like Buffet or Ray Dalio (and even they make mistakes) but a regular Joe who works at a bank?

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Free enterprise should not be changed sure.... but in special circumstances like right now; inventive and special policies have to be implemented for the businesses trying to take advantage of the system. If during financial crisis; financial firms were the crooks that got away; at a time like now it is the "shipping firms" who are trying to get away; and policies should be in place to monitor them.

Or government can use military to get shipments to the stores and the shipping industry can seriously go F-OFF if they are not going to be reasonable.

Inventive outside the box thinking is required. In the end, government's role is the social and economic welfare of the entire country not the select few like this "shipping firms" trying to take advantage of the situation. The social cost of what shipping firms are trying to do is way too big for it to be allowed.

You do realize these containers and vessels are owned by da Chinese trading companies. These shipping firms here in Canada contract with Walmart and GM and Honda etc. It is Walmart who is demanding more bandwidth. They are competing with GM for the next containers and vessels. Da shipping companies as I understand it have pretty small margins. It is a rather tricky mechanism really. All guys like me can do is say look here is what I am prepared to pay per container. and when price gets there then I get my container. What is our Canadian govt going to do? Nothing. So we have no choice we either pay for supplies or we have layoffs at Honda and Walmart? What do you want?

 

[Walshy7]

Also imagine how much waste there will be if ppl are allowed to return unused items.

anyone who was a lunatic border should not get refunds on their stuff. They should have to donate it all to shelters etc. Those f***ing toilet paper morons can’t just get their money back they should be made examples of. There was/is no need to panic there is enough for everyone selfish hoarding made a bad situation a terrible situation.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

anyone who was a lunatic border should not get refunds on their stuff. They should have to donate it all to shelters etc. Those f***ing toilet paper morons can’t just get their money back they should be made examples of. There was/is no need to panic there is enough for everyone selfish hoarding made a bad situation a terrible situation.

Good news i think those people got stuck with their shitter paper. I mean hate to say it but the online retailers shut them people down pretty quick.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Well, unless those financial experts are rich themselves or at least much more well off than you (and if they were, would they still be working?) I'm not sure how much stock I would give their advice. It's one thing to listen to guys like Buffet or Ray Dalio (and even they make mistakes) but a regular Joe who works at a bank?

Interesting you ask that. I have dozens of clients that are extremely wealthy, some even billionaires and they still work and usually until they die. There's something about the way these people are wired that they are compelled to keep going and conquering. I don't even think it's greed. If I had a certain number, no one would ever see me again.

 

[Kiwi]

anyone who was a lunatic border should not get refunds on their stuff. They should have to donate it all to shelters etc. Those f***ing toilet paper morons can’t just get their money back they should be made examples of. There was/is no need to panic there is enough for everyone selfish hoarding made a bad situation a terrible situation.

Most of the stuff people were hoarding early on was less likely to perish quickly anyway, like toilet paper, canned good, pasta, bottled water etc

You can give it to the needy certainly but why not just use it over time?

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Well good news is Toronto real estate is going to get hammered over next few months. There are way too many kids living way over their heads in condos and apartments. And with Chinese not allowed to come in now I think you will see a 30-40% correction pretty quickly. There are going to be many families in much much worse spots as they are going to be upside down. Their equity completely wiped out by debt they took on. At that point people turn over their keys to da banks and banks auction off to highest bidder.

But once this starts to occur da banks especially with CMHC deals in place everywhere are going to have to deal with da government. I can see the gov saying on these gov guaranteed loans lookie here. You can't kick that kid out and we are not paying you. So suck it up and forgive part of your mortgage to make things work. Now that I'm thinking this through it is probably why the deal first announced by Trudeau was for CMHC only. and what are da banks going to do?

 

[pepperMonkey]

Interesting you ask that. I have dozens of clients that are extremely wealthy, some even billionaires and they still work and usually until they die. There's something about the way these people are wired that they are compelled to keep going and conquering. I don't even think it's greed. If I had a certain number, no one would ever see me again.

Oh, I totally agree. Those who are good, I think a lot of them keep on going (and yes, not really for want of more $$$) but what they won't be doing is working as a regular Joe financial advisor at a bank advising the general public. If they will be still working and advising, I would think their clientele would also be upgraded from the general masses.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Combination in my opinion between measures and 30 degree plus heat there again now. Several Ivy league med schools/hospitals have now said once temp above 26 degrees Cel that virus does not transmit as well.

What about Florida and all the Southern states already around those temps.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Verify how? I find it hard to believe you're doing the science or the peer review. Are you sure you don't just search for what you want to hear?

Personally I just read a broad range of news and social media sources and I especially peruse the comments sections. If something is BS, you usually find out pretty quickly. Every MSM source has something to offer no matter how wacky or biased they are. Dismissing something outright because of the messenger is silly. "You just posted a link to Fox News!" "Yeah but it was a link to a peer reviewed study." "So!!! Fox News!!!"

Most of us have biases and we judge a news source almost entirely on which way we swing politically. Personally, even though I lean right I still want the other side of the story (if there is one) so CBC, CNN and CTV are all in my mix even though they all lean left (far left for CBC/CNN). But before I believe a word of what I read in an article, I look for the same story somewhere else.

 

[PromisedLand]

You do realize these containers and vessels are owned by da Chinese trading companies. These shipping firms here in Canada contract with Walmart and GM and Honda etc. It is Walmart who is demanding more bandwidth. They are competing with GM for the next containers and vessels. Da shipping companies as I understand it have pretty small margins. It is a rather tricky mechanism really. All guys like me can do is say look here is what I am prepared to pay per container. and when price gets there then I get my container. What is our Canadian govt going to do? Nothing. So we have no choice we either pay for supplies or we have layoffs at Honda and Walmart? What do you want?

At this time; we need to separate "needs" versus "wants"

Needs are: Food, medicines, water, housing (affordable not living large housing); other necessities if they apply

Wants are: Big screen televisions, cars, armani jackets, etc...

Let the free market operations handle the wants;

Needs have to be monitored by sound and strong fiscal policies. If there are layoffs at Honda then so be it; the people who get laid off will have their needs met by the transfers provided by the government; once this virus fiasco is behind us the demand for "wants" will increase and honda can hire new employees.

If the so called shipping companies bid up the prices; business have to sell at a higher cost to make their margin; do you think households are going to pay that "high price" to get the "wants"??? May be some who want to live large; majority of the people will not pay ridiculous prices anyway to begin with and the layoffs will happen later on as business will have to eat the cost.

Other thing that can happen is that we start producing what we "need" or "want" and chinese suffer in the end as their exports are too expensive; then chinese will have to eat the cost. Meanwhile; we create jobs in our own economy and satisfy our needs by domestic production.

International trade among NAFTA partners and may be CETA partners increase more and China will suffer in the end; in a global framework eventually someone would suffer. Honda peronnel that work there are mostly sales; mechanics; these skills are easily transferable it is not specialized rocket science. I am not that worried about these.

Given the special circumstances we are facing right now; any shipping firm trying "profit" on the needs should be penalized; for the "wants" let the free market transactions go ahead.

I am pretty sure most of the Canadian households at the moment care more about paying their everyday bills and meeting their everyday needs instead of buying Honda Civic