Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Part XII

[Pink Mist]

Wrong. They are classifying covid deaths if the person tests positive whether the cause was Covid or not.

Well there’s an annual flu shot that people get, so that helps. Imagine if this was the Spanish flu where 50million people died, mostly younger people in the prime of their lives. If this is a pandemic what is that?

John Hopkins COVID study: Car crash deaths not reported as COVID | wusa9.com

How are COVID-19 deaths counted? It’s complicated

Wrong. There isn't some conspiracy in how Covid deaths are counted.

And the Spanish flu is also a pandemic, obviously. Just because the scales are different doesn't mean that they both can't be a pandemic. Also the Spanish flu occured before antibiotics were developed which would have saved millions of lives

 

[ULF_55]

Are they testing for the flu like they are for covid though when someone dies? I seriously doubt someone that dies in a car accident is being put in the flu death column if they also happened to have the flu at the time like they are for covid. Also I don't think your flu stats tell the whole story. Statscan lumps flu and pneumonia together so they are obviously interrelated (likely because most cases of pneumonia are flu related but that's just a guess):

Leading causes of death, total population, by age group

7,343 flu deaths/year 5 year average in Canada. Alberta's share of that should be approx. 856/year. And again, there's no reason to believe those numbers are padded in any way (unlike covid deaths).

All are reviewed and sent to CIHI.

Diagnosis Type Valid Responses
M = Most responsible diagnosis - The one diagnosis or condition that can be described as being the most responsible for the patient's stay in hospital. In the event that multiple diagnoses are listed, select the most responsible diagnosis from the condition associated with the longest length of stay or most resource intense. If no diagnosis is made, the main symptom, abnormal finding or problem should be selected as the MRDx. (See the Canadian coding standards for more information)

1 = Pre-Admit comorbidity - A diagnosis or condition (ICD-10CA code) that existed pre-admission and satisfies the requirements for determining comorbidity (See DAD manual for more information)

When another condition such as a stroke qualifies as the most responsible diagnosis, is diagnosis type (1) applied to U07.1 COVID-19, virus identified in a patient who tests positive for COVID-19?

Per the Diagnosis Typing Definitions for DAD coding standard, diagnosis type (M) is the one diagnosis that can be described as being most responsible for the patient’s length of stay in hospital. If there is more than one such condition, the one held most responsible for the greatest portion of the length of stay or greatest use of resources is diagnosis type (M). When a stroke qualifies as the most responsible diagnosis, diagnosis type (1) may be applied to U07.1 COVID-19, virus identified.

 

[GoonieFace]

John Hopkins COVID study: Car crash deaths not reported as COVID | wusa9.com

How are COVID-19 deaths counted? It’s complicated

Wrong. There isn't some conspiracy in how Covid deaths are counted.

And the Spanish flu is also a pandemic, obviously. Just because the scales are different doesn't mean that they both can't be a pandemic. Also the Spanish flu occured before antibiotics were developed which would have saved millions of lives

Not saying a conspiracy, but they definitely take some liberties with what they report as a Covid Death.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

All are reviewed and sent to CIHI.

No idea what that is nor how it answers my questions/comments.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Not saying a conspiracy, but they definitely take some liberties with what they report as a Covid Death.

It's not a conspiracy theory away at all. Several health authorities have come right out and said it. E.g.:



Or:

Ontario counts suicide victims as COVID-19 fatalities | True North

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

All are reviewed and sent to CIHI.

Diagnosis Type Valid Responses
M = Most responsible diagnosis - The one diagnosis or condition that can be described as being the most responsible for the patient's stay in hospital. In the event that multiple diagnoses are listed, select the most responsible diagnosis from the condition associated with the longest length of stay or most resource intense. If no diagnosis is made, the main symptom, abnormal finding or problem should be selected as the MRDx. (See the Canadian coding standards for more information)

1 = Pre-Admit comorbidity - A diagnosis or condition (ICD-10CA code) that existed pre-admission and satisfies the requirements for determining comorbidity (See DAD manual for more information)

When another condition such as a stroke qualifies as the most responsible diagnosis, is diagnosis type (1) applied to U07.1 COVID-19, virus identified in a patient who tests positive for COVID-19?

Per the Diagnosis Typing Definitions for DAD coding standard, diagnosis type (M) is the one diagnosis that can be described as being most responsible for the patient’s length of stay in hospital. If there is more than one such condition, the one held most responsible for the greatest portion of the length of stay or greatest use of resources is diagnosis type (M). When a stroke qualifies as the most responsible diagnosis, diagnosis type (1) may be applied to U07.1 COVID-19, virus identified.

I replied before you edited. I'll review later. One thing a guarantee you though is they aren't counting a car accident death or a suicide as a flu death (or a hundred other types of deaths) if they happened to have the flu at the same time.

 

[Pink Mist]

I replied before you edited. I'll review later. One thing a guarantee you though is they aren't counting a car accident death or a suicide as a flu death (or a hundred other types of deaths) if they happened to have the flu at the same time.

Nor are they doing that for Covid...

 

[Randy Randerson]

This is a little off topic but still in the health realm, didn't really know where to put it: Just a PSA, everyone should get their house tested for Radon gas. Recently found that the house we bought a few years ago has a real problem that would have been like smoking half a pack a day if we left it unchecked.

The test is cheap (like $50 for a disposable including the lab fees), the odds are that you don't have a problem (about 1 in 20 houses have an issue), it's not a terribly expensive problem to fix if you do have it (like $2k for ours)

 

[ULF_55]

This is a little off topic but still in the health realm, didn't really know where to put it: Just a PSA, everyone should get their house tested for Radon gas. Recently found that the house we bought a few years ago has a real problem that would have been like smoking half a pack a day if we left it unchecked.

The test is cheap (like $50 for a disposable including the lab fees), the odds are that you don't have a problem (about 1 in 20 houses have an issue), it's not a terribly expensive problem to fix if you do have it (like $2k for ours)

You might even find a study that won't charge for you to have your house tested.

We had one done a few years ago, and it was free.

 

[Randy Randerson]

You might even find a study that won't charge for you to have your house tested.

We had one done a few years ago, and it was free.

For sure, a lot of the municipalities are putting this issue at the forefront now. Hamilton actually has Radon monitors that you can sign out of libraries and I think there is some subsidy programs for getting the remediation done in certain areas of the province/country too.

Either way, everyone needs to check and a lot of people have never heard of this problem.

 

[Confucius]

This is a little off topic but still in the health realm, didn't really know where to put it: Just a PSA, everyone should get their house tested for Radon gas. Recently found that the house we bought a few years ago has a real problem that would have been like smoking half a pack a day if we left it unchecked.

The test is cheap (like $50 for a disposable including the lab fees), the odds are that you don't have a problem (about 1 in 20 houses have an issue), it's not a terribly expensive problem to fix if you do have it (like $2k for ours)

You might even find a study that won't charge for you to have your house tested.

We had one done a few years ago, and it was free.

I see home depot sells detectors from 200 to 350. one is 1700 whoa!
anybody have an opinion on the detectors?

 

[Crazy Monkey]

It is same everywhere how they count these deaths ... one of my dads friends (high 80s) passed a few days back of a 3rd heart attack ... test done at hospital between attacks showed he had COVID ... his death is counted in Florida as a COVID death even though he never knew he had COVID ... fact was he died of multiple heart attacks but death is recorded as COVID ... clearly these health people are trying to exaggerate these numbers ... i dont know what real numbers are but guessing they are not nearly as bad as most of us think

Given that COVID has known cardiac consequences, including MIs, how do you propose we objectively classify deaths in these types of circumstances?

 

[Gabriel426]

It is same everywhere how they count these deaths ... one of my dads friends (high 80s) passed a few days back of a 3rd heart attack ... test done at hospital between attacks showed he had COVID ... his death is counted in Florida as a COVID death even though he never knew he had COVID ... fact was he died of multiple heart attacks but death is recorded as COVID ... clearly these health people are trying to exaggerate these numbers ... i dont know what real numbers are but guessing they are not nearly as bad as most of us think

In that case, I don't think it should count as COVID death, but did your dad's friend receive a vaccine?
In HK, there are 4 deaths due to taking the made in China Vaccine and more people are in serious condition after taking the vaccine. Ofcourse these individuals are all older and with pre-exisitng medical conditions.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Given that COVID has known cardiac consequences, including MIs, how do you propose we objectively classify deaths in these types of circumstances?

COVID in my personal experience, as someone who had it, is entirely different for each person who gets it ... there are so many symptoms it is ridiculous ... but I get your point in that it is impossible to define ... and how does anyone know what caused death? ... but i think we all know that these numbers are not right

 

[JT AM da real deal]

In that case, I don't think it should count as COVID death, but did your dad's friend receive a vaccine?
In HK, there are 4 deaths due to taking the made in China Vaccine and more people are in serious condition after taking the vaccine. Ofcourse these individuals are all older and with pre-exisitng medical conditions.

No idea ... just talking to my dad and he thinks it is a complete joke that his buddies death goes down in records as COVID

 

[Bluelines]

Wrong. They are classifying covid deaths if the person tests positive whether the cause was Covid or not.

Well there’s an annual flu shot that people get, so that helps. Imagine if this was the Spanish flu where 50million people died, mostly younger people in the prime of their lives. If this is a pandemic what is that?

Just stop debating with Pink Mist, you're simply wrong.

Jesus dude seriously, you think Spanish Flu was a more deadly virus? First of all, the state of supportive medical care in 1918-19 was primitive by today's standards. Keep in mind that many deaths related to influenza are actually due to secondary bacterial infections, which today we treat with antibiotics, which were completely unavailable in 1918-19. Additionally, the state of ICU care with modern mechanical ventilation and ECMO (extracorporeal membrane oxygenation. when blood is pumped through an artificial lung back into the bloodstream) were far off into the future.

World War I was also hugely instrumental in the transmission of the virus that caused Spanish flu. Military barracks usually have crowding and poor spatial separation, especially in winter months. The movement of the troops during the war facilitated spread to other susceptible populations. Likewise, the economic circumstances likely caused crowding in winter months, poor ventilation, and congregation—all of which increased spread. Also, standards of hygiene were lower 100 years ago.

If Covid-19 happened in 1918 it would have been as deadly or more deadly than the Spanish Flu. You were wrong yesterday, your wrong today and you will be wrong tomorrow.

 

[Bluelines]

COVID in my personal experience, as someone who had it, is entirely different for each person who gets it ... there are so many symptoms it is ridiculous ... but I get your point in that it is impossible to define ... and how does anyone know what caused death? ... but i think we all know that these numbers are not right

Correct the global number is considerably under the true number of deaths related to Covid-19.

 

[Randy Randerson]

I see home depot sells detectors from 200 to 350. one is 1700 whoa!
anybody have an opinion on the detectors?

I have 2 that I bought from Amazon called Airthings Wave. They work great, bluetooth connection to an app that takes about 30 seconds to sync but they are very accurate (like when ours was high, I would watch the levels in the basement climb then the one upstairs would follow to the same level within about an hour, and matched exactly what the technician who installed our mitigation system had on his professional monitor).

 

[Bluelines]

Nor are they doing that for Covid...

It's pure insanity, one idiot down south lies for 4 years, captures the hearts and minds of like minded people, now conspiracy theories are mainstream. FFS this world is going to hell in a hand basket.

 

[Pink Mist]

Given that COVID has known cardiac consequences, including MIs, how do you propose we objectively classify deaths in these types of circumstances?

Yep lol

If someone is trying to find an example of a death being declared a Covid death improperly, a heart attack is not a good example. Given that they were in their late 80s and have a history of heart attacks it's not hard to believe at all that contracting Covid could have caused a heart attack

 

[GoonieFace]

It's pure insanity, one idiot down south lies for 4 years, captures the hearts and minds of like minded people, now conspiracy theories are mainstream. FFS this world is going to hell in a hand basket.

Well we agree on something, that guy down south was an idiot. What conspiracy theories are you referring to exactly?

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Given that COVID has known cardiac consequences, including MIs, how do you propose we objectively classify deaths in these types of circumstances?

This is the problem. You guys can never be wrong. All cardiac deaths are Covid if they had Covid because Covid causes cardiac problem ms. Lockdowns are why cases went down. Lack of lockdowns is why cases went up.

 

[Crazy Monkey]

This is the problem. You guys can never be wrong. All cardiac deaths are Covid if they had Covid because Covid causes cardiac problem ms. Lockdowns are why cases went down. Lack of lockdowns is why cases went up.

It was a genuine question. Asking for an alternate solution

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

It was a genuine question. Asking for an alternate solution

My solution is to stop testing. If someone died of a heart attack, why are they testing for covid? It was a heart attack and likely 99% of the reason they died was because of cardiovascular problems.

 

[Pink Mist]

My solution is to stop testing. If someone died of a heart attack, why are they testing for covid? It was a heart attack and likely 99% of the reason they died was because of cardiovascular problems.

Ah so the "Stop the tests!" solution.

Because when someone dies you generally need to determine the cause of death and in a pandemic that entails checking if they died from said illness