OT: Consolidated Entertainment Thread (TV, Movies, Books, Games) V- Use Spoiler Tags!

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JK3

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I was very, very reluctant to watch HOTD, never gave it a thought after the GOT disaster, kinda swore myself off of it. Didn't think I would even watch it or paid any attention until I heard some good reviews of the first few episodes. I waited till after episode 8 and all the praise to finally watch it, and it was great.

That last episode gave me PTSD though, will it be just a one off, I mean all shows have clunkers so we'll see. They better stick the landing though.
 
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So far really enjoying House Of The Dragon. Only caught part of first season of Game Of Thrones and for some reason just never stayed with it. Wanting to rewatch what I missed there even with so many people saying it ended really badly. Just finished Halloween Ends and I was pretty disappointed with it to say the least. Late to the party on The White Lotus and Its been terrific. Have 30 minutes left of the final episode and cant wait to see how this ends. So many awkward moments with humor and crazy happenings.
 

FascinationStreet

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I was very, very reluctant to watch HOTD, never gave it a thought after the GOT disaster, kinda swore myself off of it. Didn't think I would even watch it or paid any attention until I heard some good reviews of the first few episodes. I waited till after episode 8 and all the praise to finally watch it, and it was great.

That last episode gave me PTSD though, will it be just a one off, I mean all shows have clunkers so we'll see. They better stick the landing though.

Being that they have source material which is, in theory, a good continuation of this story. Its possible they stick the landing.

However I will not anticipate they do. I do not trust any show or movie writer anymore. Just like I don't trust the devils anymore. I desperately want to be proven wrong on both accounts.
 
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MadDevil

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I was very, very reluctant to watch HOTD, never gave it a thought after the GOT disaster, kinda swore myself off of it. Didn't think I would even watch it or paid any attention until I heard some good reviews of the first few episodes. I waited till after episode 8 and all the praise to finally watch it, and it was great.

That last episode gave me PTSD though, will it be just a one off, I mean all shows have clunkers so we'll see. They better stick the landing though.
giphy.gif
 
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Hisch13r

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This episode did make look Alicent look either dumb or naive.

Last episode she basically disowned Aegon and seems to realize what a piece of shit and terrible King he would be, but the ramblings of a drugged up and dying man and suddenly she's like "Well, guess I have to put him on the throne". Aegon himself realizes what a crock of shit that is and laughes at how stupid it sounds. Also, she's shocked when the small council is talking about wiping out Rhaenyra and her kids as rivals to Aegon's claim when Otto has been in her ear for years saying Rhaenyra would do the same to her and her children? Does she not realize by now how this shit works?

She looks like a complete naive moron and it directly contradicts how she's previously been shown to act.

Even if last episode was her legitimately disinheriting Aegon and accepting Rhaenyra (woof that's some flimsy logical to just accept Rhaenyra because she gave a nice speech after you hated her for over 15 years and basically made it your lives goal to undermine her) then she still should've been spearheading the Greens plots to place Aegon on the throneall this time. She shouldn't have been blindsided by it. Episode 6 she literally tells him that he's going to be King. She says Rhaenyra will kill him if he doesn't stand up and challenge her. This shows that she does in fact know how it works so it makes everything about how she acts this episode so weird. She thinks Rhaenyra would kill him even if he doesn't challenge him. Now you're quite literally stealing her throne and she thinks Rhaenyra will just stand down and accept it peacefully?? What the f*** kind of logic is that. Just a complete and utter butchering of Alicent that doesn't even track with the verison they themselves established in the show

It's like they're now trying to make the way Alicent upholds the patriarchy be that she doesn't get overly involved and stands aside to let the men make the choices. That does not track with the Alicent who was forcing Aegon to stand up against Rhaenyra and the Alicent who was sitting in the Kings seat in the council and plotting with Vaemond. Alicent proactively upholds the patriarchy with her own actions. Not this bullshit.
 

Hisch13r

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I was very, very reluctant to watch HOTD, never gave it a thought after the GOT disaster, kinda swore myself off of it. Didn't think I would even watch it or paid any attention until I heard some good reviews of the first few episodes. I waited till after episode 8 and all the praise to finally watch it, and it was great.

That last episode gave me PTSD though, will it be just a one off, I mean all shows have clunkers so we'll see. They better stick the landing though.

I honestly think I enjoyed the first 8 episodes more than I enjoyed early GoT. I know I've seen a lot of book readers and some non book readers as well feel the same way I do. Great first 8 episodes (up until the miscommunication) and then a complete WTF is this reaction to ep 9. Hopefully they can get it back on track. The Alicent stuff (as is the ending of this episode) is honestly going to hang over the entire series for me though. It doesn't even track with the show version of the character that they've established. Just a complete lack of logic.

Knowing Sara Hess is coming back for S2 after reading explanations and seeing the episode she just wrote has torpedoed my expectations. She's awful.
 
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AfroThunder396

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Alicent's entire character is based on two things: being manipulated by men as a political pawn, and "following the rules."

So in that sense, Alicent is clearly naive. She is a politically-minded player, yet acts all shocked when guys like Otto, Criston, and Larys decide to play dirty. She has been conditioned from a young age to be a nice proper young lady who follows the rules and does as she's told. This is what drives her into conflict with the other characters. She hates Rhaenyra because she gets to break all the rules and gets away with it because she's Viserys's favorite, she hates Otto because he breaks the rules and gets away with it because he's literally the law, she hates Aegon because he breaks the rules and has no understanding of the sacrifices she went through.

The scene with her and Rhaenys was excellent because it shows their opposite viewpoints. Alicent is willing to "settle" for being subservient to the men at court. As long as she sucks it up and follows the rules she will get a seat at the table and she's fine with that little slice of power. But Rhaenys knows that's a farce. She has spent her whole life being the smartest and most capable person in the room, yet is constantly being passed over because of her gender. She knows that in this society, for a woman to be respected by men she has to wield power in ways that men understand. Rhaenys sits her husbands throne, she wears armor, she rides a dragon into battle. She is willing to get her hands dirty. Alicent has shown an unwillingness to do this previously, seeing the violence that dudes like Larys and Criston keep perpetrating on her behalf as distasteful.

So her offering peace to Rhaenyra was partially motivated by her loyalty to her husband, and partially motivated by her being a boy scout at heart. She doesn't want to do deceitful murder (look at her reaction to Larys murdering the Strongs in episode 6). It's naive, yes. Rhaenyra will never accept, yes. But it's consistent with the character we know Alicent to be.

Episode 9 was meant to be the first time she's really stood up to her father and showed any agency of her own. She doesn't want any more creepy old men pulling the strings behind the scenes. She hates manipulation and doing political "dirty work" because she has been a victim of those things her entire life.

As for the prophecy stuff - that's clearly motivated cognition on her behalf. She has spent more than half of her life being told that Aegon needs to be king, Aegon needs to be king. So when she hears what is clearly the delusional ramblings of a dying man, she picks out the words she wants to hear. Even when Aegon himself says "no that's bullshit, father hated me and never stopped supporting Rhaenyra" she can't come to terms with herself being wrong. In her mind, what she thinks she heard justifies everything she's worked for her whole life. Otto manipulated her entire existence into fathering a king, whether she wanted to or not, and now this is the payoff for her entire life's work. Even if she never particularly wanted the payoff herself, she has been conditioned to want this outcome. She was just a means to an end for the Hightowers plan of getting one of their own on the Iron Throne.

It's not a plot hole though, and it's not bad writing either. Writing flawed, conflicted characters who make bad decisions is kinda GRRM's thing. IRL people make bad choices and have misguided motivations with shocking regularity.
 
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Hisch13r

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Alicent's entire character is based on two things: being manipulated by men as a political pawn, and "following the rules."

So in that sense, Alicent is clearly naive. She is a politically-minded player, yet acts all shocked when guys like Otto, Criston, and Larys decide to play dirty. She has been conditioned from a young age to be a nice proper young lady who follows the rules and does as she's told. This is what drives her into conflict with the other characters. She hates Rhaenyra because she gets to break all the rules and gets away with it because she's Viserys's favorite, she hates Otto because he breaks the rules and gets away with it because he's literally the law, she hates Aegon because he breaks the rules and has no understanding of the sacrifices she went through.

The scene with her and Rhaenys was excellent because it shows their opposite viewpoints. Alicent is willing to "settle" for being subservient to the men at court. As long as she sucks it up and follows the rules she will get a seat at the table and she's fine with that little slice of power. But Rhaenys knows that's a farce. She has spent her whole life being the smartest and most capable person in the room, yet is constantly being passed over because of her gender. She knows that in this society, for a woman to be respected by men she has to wield power in ways that men understand. Rhaenys sits her husbands throne, she wears armor, she rides a dragon into battle. She is willing to get her hands dirty. Alicent has shown an unwillingness to do this previously, seeing the violence that dudes like Larys and Criston keep perpetrating on her behalf as distasteful.

Episode 9 was meant to be the first time she's really stood up to her father and showed any agency of her own. She doesn't want any more creepy old men pulling the strings behind the scenes.

As for the prophecy stuff - that's clearly motivated cognition on her behalf. She has spent more than half of her life being told that Aegon needs to be king, Aegon needs to be king. So when she hears what is clearly the delusional ramblings of a dying man, she picks out the words she wants to hear. Even when Aegon himself says "no that's bullshit, father hated me and never stopped supporting Rhaenyra" she can't come to terms with herself being wrong. In her mind, what she thinks she heard justifies everything she's worked for her whole life. Otto manipulated her entire existence into fathering a king, whether she wanted to or not, and now this is the payoff for her entire life's work. Even if she never particularly wanted the payoff herself, she has been conditioned to want this outcome. She was just a means to an end for the Hightowers plan of getting one of their own on the Iron Throne.

It's not a plot hole though, and it's not bad writing either. Writing flawed, conflicted characters who make bad decisions is kinda GRRM's thing. IRL people make bad choices and have cloudy motivations with shocking regularity.

Ep 6 Alicent tells Aegon he will be King. Are we to believe she was just going to try and wing that? The idea that she wouldn't have been plotting is moronic. They completely take away her agency in placing Aegon on the throne by making her only do it because she believes a delirious dying man. It doesn't track with the show version and it certainly doesn't track with the book version who was always at the forefront of pushing for Aegon and was the one leading the charge. We see her plotting literally last episode with Vaemond but are supposed to believe that she wasn't plotting to do the thing she's literally wanted to do for over 15 f***ing years?? Even if Ep 8 was her breaking point with Aegon and she could no longer support him after that she still should've been plotting all that time before that. It's funny you bring up flawed and conflicted characters because book version was as one note villain as it gets with no complexity. Yes the show shouldn't have been that black and white. No they shouldn't have wrote this illogical and inconsistent nonsense where they remove Alicent's agency.
 

Darkauron

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Yeah I dont have a problem at all with the last Hotd episode. I think it was pretty good. Not as good as the last one, as it was a 10/10 that is for sure.

Id love to see some of peoples reactions to watching the LOTR tv if you think hotd has plot holes or things that dont make sense :laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
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AfroThunder396

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Ep 6 Alicent tells Aegon he will be King. Are we to believe she was just going to try and wing that? The idea that she wouldn't have been plotting is moronic. They completely take away her agency in placing Aegon on the throne by making her only do it because she believes a delirious dying man. It doesn't track with the show version and it certainly doesn't track with the book version who was always at the forefront of pushing for Aegon and was the one leading the charge.The book version was as one note villain as it gets. Yes the show shoudln't have done that. No they shouldn't have wrote this illogical and inconsistent nonsense
She has no agency in putting Aegon on the throne to begin with. That is Otto's goal. She doesn't care about Aegon as a person at all. She was told to marry the king and bear him sons, so she did that. She doesn't care about Aegon as her son, she cares about Aegon as Otto's checkmate. She is a terrible mother and her neglect of him is the reason he ends up being a violent and cruel dictator. I actually love Aegon's super villain story - unable to get approval from his family, he finds approval from the masses as king. This will motivate him to hold on to power in the future as he desperately craves the positive reinforcement he never got from his family.

Her plan was pretty obviously to use the Velaryon succession dispute to disinherit Jace and Luke as bastards (and install Vaemond as Lord of Driftmark, who will owe her his allegiance), and then use that to discredit Rhaenyra's claim. They would likely also use her alleged murder of Laenor and subsequent marriage to Daemon to discredit her too (the small council and Otto specifically in the past had major concerns about Daemon being close to the throne due to his violence and arrogance). We see her cutting a deal with Vaemond in the small council to make this happen. Otto sits the throne, and we know the whole EP 8 trial is rigged to generate this outcome.

Alicent believes in justice, righteousness, and honesty, and those are the principles she will wield as her weapons in order to disinherit Rhaenyra's family. And she's totally right to disinherit Jace and Luke - Rhaenyra's children ARE bastards. It's a good plan to accomplish her goal without the need for violence or deception. Since this order comes from the [Hand of the] King, how can Rhaenyra's family possibly dispute it?

The only way it could possibly fail is.....if King Vizzy himself shows up and overrides his Hand in public to re-affirm his previously stated position. Which is exactly what happens, and the plan falls through. There was no way she could have anticipated that a barely conscious corpse only hours from death would be able to walk into the throne room under his own power and make this happen - even Vizzy didn't know he was going to do it until Rhaenyra talked with him about supporting her burden. It makes sense for the Hightowers to be completely blindsided by this.

After this, it seems as though Alicent is resigned to the fact that it's not going to work. She seems genuinely moved by Vizzy's pleas for peace. She says Rhaenyra would make a good queen, and again I have no choice to believe her given the honesty, obedience, and sense of duty she's shown throughout the show. And given that this all happens literally a few hours before he dies, I think it's pretty safe to say she had no Plan B (though Otto clearly isn't so naive and had his own machinations in place just in case).

But 20 years of psychological conditioning isn't going to disappear because of one night at dinner. Otto has been saying for decades that Aegon needs to be king or her entire family will be killed. So Alicent, completely unaware of the Song of Ice and Fire prophecy, picks out the words she understands - Aegon, Prince, Promise, Savior, and fills in the blanks herself. I don't think it's unreasonable at all for someone to cling to the final dying words of a beloved family member.
 

FascinationStreet

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Yeah I dont have a problem at all with the last Hotd episode. I think it was pretty good. Not as good as the last one, as it was a 10/10 that is for sure.

Id love to see some of peoples reactions to watching the LOTR tv if you think hotd has plot holes or things that dont make sense :laugh::laugh::laugh:

I think its just the whole
dragon bursting through the floor and killing hundreds of peasants for zero reason just to ....make the obligatory episode 9 ending crescendo?? I guess it looked cool but it was just ridiculous for the sake of being ridiculous. And that's putting aside all of the issues with character motivations

but to each his own. If you enjoyed it, more power to you.
 
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Jack Be Quick

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I don't know about anyone else but as soon as I read or hear the terms sjw, toxic masculinity, or incel (as a non-pejorative) I immediately disregard their opinion.

Do better.
 
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AfroThunder396

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I think its just the whole
dragon bursting through the floor and killing hundreds of peasants for zero reason just to ....make the obligatory episode 9 ending crescendo?? I guess it looked cool but it was just ridiculous for the sake of being ridiculous. And that's putting aside all of the issues with character motivations

but to each his own. If you enjoyed it, more power to you.
In the short term, it makes the common people more sympathetic to the greens, despite us in the audience knowing they are rebellious usurping assholes.

In the long term, I think the small folk of King's Landing having a reason to fear/hate dragons will pay off in later seasons.
 

FascinationStreet

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In the short term, it makes the common people more sympathetic to the greens, despite us in the audience knowing they are rebellious usurping assholes.

In the long term, I think the small folk of King's Landing having a reason to fear/hate dragons will pay off in later seasons.

Being that I know how the story ends it would be impossible comment without spoiling! hahahaha
but astute observation nonetheless.
 
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Richer's Ghost

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It's better than we ever expected. It's better than what we left off with.

Appreciate it for that even if it's not a solid 8-10 all the time. They have 4 seasons planned so enjoy the ride and hope it maintains this quality throughout.


Signed,
Non book reader.
 

Brodeur

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I cancelled Netflix awhile back, but my coworker mentioned this recent Woodstock '99 documentary. I then found that HBO had a similar one released last year. Maybe for the younger folks, this was my decade's version of the Fyre Festival.

That festival always brings me back to an interesting mind space. I was in college and hit my low point from April 1999 - April 2000. Basically a combination of not handling my first breakup well + being a dumb teenager + classes getting more difficult.

(Also part of the reason the 2000 Devils Cup team still means so much to me since that coincided with me turning things around academically.)

Even to this day, Woodstock '99 still kinda embodied how my life was going that summer. Watching the documentary unearthed a memory of me half-seriously asking friends if they'd want to go to Woodstock 2004 after we graduated.

The HBO documentary probably could have been boiled down, but generally the main points:

- Dumb idea to have a summer festival at an air force base with no shade.

- Not enough free water available. Prices for food/beverages were rough. Bathroom facilities were not adequate.

- Most people didn't have cell phones yet, so it would be difficult to find somebody if your group got split up.

- The amount of casual groping of female attendees was a bit jarring.

- Limp Bizkit was usually made the scapegoat by the organizers and the media. While they didn't help things, the overall vibe of the crowd was going off the rails due to the conditions.

- Interviews with several attendees who noted that the crowd was overwhelmingly college aged dudes. That made me laugh since 1999 me thought that festival looked like a great time (coming off of the 1994 Woodstock).
 
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Brodeur

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And while I'm in the head space of the late 90's, there were recent developments in a couple of true crime stories that were reinvigorated by podcasts. Admittedly I feel a bit guilty following these stories for entertainment.


The Kristin Smart case was covered by a podcast called "In Your Own Backyard." Cliff's Notes summary:

Smart was a college freshman in 1996. On Memorial Day weekend, she attended an off campus party. Her roommate was away for the weekend and didn't suspect anything nefarious when she didn't see her upon returning. Eventually she does notify campus police who are a bit slow to investigate as they assumed she had gone somewhere for the holiday weekend.

Eventually the police start investigating and determine she was last seen walking back to campus from the party with a small group. Unfortunately by the time they identify the prime suspect (Paul Flores), the school year had ended and the dorms had been cleaned. Despite that, K9 unit seemed to alert the police to Flores' room but they weren't able to find sufficient evidence.

Body was never recovered. The creepy layer to the story was the possibility that the body was buried in the backyard of Flores' nearby home. They had rented out a guest house and the tenants noted that they'd hear a faint alarm go off around 4:20am every morning. They didn't know what to make of it and eventually it went away. Later it was theorized that it could have been Smart's watch as she had a 5am shift as a lifeguard on campus.

Fast forward to the recent podcast and Flores' predatory behavior after the incident was uncovered. The police reopened the investigation and eventually charged him last year and he got convicted this week.

I might have to check out recent coverage of the trial to see if there was any additional evidence introduced. Unfortunately most of the story is Flores following Smart around at the party and then being adamant that he'd be the one to walk her back to her dorm.


The Hae Min Lee murder / Adnan Syed conviction was popularized by the Serial podcast and later an HBO four part documentary. Recently Adnan was released and the state is following leads on a couple (new?) suspects.

This one hit home for me since I'm the same age as the principles of this case. So when I listened to Serial, I was almost picturing myself (I coincidentally was dating a Korean classmate at the time).

TL;DR version: Ex-boyfriend found guilty of murder. But star witness keeps changing his story and there's no physical evidence tying him to the crime.

Cliff's Notes:

~ early 1998 - Adnan and Hae begin dating as high school juniors, but due to their cultural backgrounds they have to keep it from their families. They break up and reconcile a few times, but eventually call it quits by December 1998.

Hae begins to date an older coworker in January 1999 then goes missing a couple weeks later. A random* passerby finds her body in a shallow grave in a heavily wooded area. Some are theorizing the passerby might be being reevaluated as a suspect. His story was that he had stopped off to take a leak.

Adnan was probably a prime suspect anyways, but police received an anonymous tip to focus on him. Eventually they get his cell phone records and they narrow it down to Adnan and his friend/acquaintance Jay. Adnan's story was that he was at a nearby library waiting for his afternoon track practice (basically a normal day). He had lent Jay his car so he could get a birthday gift for Stephanie (Jay's girlfriend / one of Adnan's best friends). Adnan's newly activated cell phone had been left in the car.

Jay becomes the prosecution's star witness and he tells the police that Adnan murdered Hae then contacted him to help dispose of the body. Jay also informs the police where Hae's car was abandoned. Other testimony from Jay's friend's roommate (insert Spaceballs joke here) is used to place Adnan with Jay the night that Hae disappeared. Adnan is convicted in 2000 and had imprisoned until recently.

The Serial podcast brought light to how Jay's story had progressively changed throughout the process. The thought was that he was coerced/coached by the detectives in order to fit a particular timeline based on the cell phone records. Apparently Jay had a reputation for either being a compulsive liar or throwing people under a bus to keep himself out of trouble. The thought is that Jay was a low level drug dealer, so he might have been motivated to cooperate in this case to avoid getting a harsher sentence for his own crimes.

The HBO documentary also found the class schedule for the friend's roommate and she should have been in class the night that Hae disappeared. So the thought being that her memory was off by a day. Subsequent analysis also found a possible typo in the cell phone tower report which threw further doubt into the police's theory plus the overall reliability of the data itself. The cell phone engineer in the original trial has since recanted the accuracy of his testimony.

Adnan's attorney from the original trial also disregarded a possible alibi witness who potentially talked with Adnan that afternoon in the library when the police asserted was during a brief window when the murder occurred and Jay claimed he had dropped Adnan back off at school.

Also may have been a bit of an inherent racial bias as Jay is African American as were 11 of the 12 jurors. Adnan's defense attorney (now deceased) was particularly abrasive. Serial contacted (at least) one of the jurors who noted that perhaps there was a sense of empathy for Jay as he was getting grilled on the stand. So instead of focusing on his inconsistent testimony, they just felt bad for him.

A few weeks back, Adnan was released from prison at the request of the prosecutor's office. Apparently there had been a Brady violation in the original case where the prosecutor didn't disclose alternative suspects to the defense. And then also recently there was a DNA analysis done on Hae's shoes which didn't come back with Adnan's DNA, so they've at least publicly cleared him as a suspect for the moment.
 

My3Sons

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And while I'm in the head space of the late 90's, there were recent developments in a couple of true crime stories that were reinvigorated by podcasts. Admittedly I feel a bit guilty following these stories for entertainment.


The Kristin Smart case was covered by a podcast called "In Your Own Backyard." Cliff's Notes summary:

Smart was a college freshman in 1996. On Memorial Day weekend, she attended an off campus party. Her roommate was away for the weekend and didn't suspect anything nefarious when she didn't see her upon returning. Eventually she does notify campus police who are a bit slow to investigate as they assumed she had gone somewhere for the holiday weekend.

Eventually the police start investigating and determine she was last seen walking back to campus from the party with a small group. Unfortunately by the time they identify the prime suspect (Paul Flores), the school year had ended and the dorms had been cleaned. Despite that, K9 unit seemed to alert the police to Flores' room but they weren't able to find sufficient evidence.

Body was never recovered. The creepy layer to the story was the possibility that the body was buried in the backyard of Flores' nearby home. They had rented out a guest house and the tenants noted that they'd hear a faint alarm go off around 4:20am every morning. They didn't know what to make of it and eventually it went away. Later it was theorized that it could have been Smart's watch as she had a 5am shift as a lifeguard on campus.

Fast forward to the recent podcast and Flores' predatory behavior after the incident was uncovered. The police reopened the investigation and eventually charged him last year and he got convicted this week.

I might have to check out recent coverage of the trial to see if there was any additional evidence introduced. Unfortunately most of the story is Flores following Smart around at the party and then being adamant that he'd be the one to walk her back to her dorm.


The Hae Min Lee murder / Adnan Syed conviction was popularized by the Serial podcast and later an HBO four part documentary. Recently Adnan was released and the state is following leads on a couple (new?) suspects.

This one hit home for me since I'm the same age as the principles of this case. So when I listened to Serial, I was almost picturing myself (I coincidentally was dating a Korean classmate at the time).

TL;DR version: Ex-boyfriend found guilty of murder. But star witness keeps changing his story and there's no physical evidence tying him to the crime.

Cliff's Notes:

~ early 1998 - Adnan and Hae begin dating as high school juniors, but due to their cultural backgrounds they have to keep it from their families. They break up and reconcile a few times, but eventually call it quits by December 1998.

Hae begins to date an older coworker in January 1999 then goes missing a couple weeks later. A random* passerby finds her body in a shallow grave in a heavily wooded area. Some are theorizing the passerby might be being reevaluated as a suspect. His story was that he had stopped off to take a leak.

Adnan was probably a prime suspect anyways, but police received an anonymous tip to focus on him. Eventually they get his cell phone records and they narrow it down to Adnan and his friend/acquaintance Jay. Adnan's story was that he was at a nearby library waiting for his afternoon track practice (basically a normal day). He had lent Jay his car so he could get a birthday gift for Stephanie (Jay's girlfriend / one of Adnan's best friends). Adnan's newly activated cell phone had been left in the car.

Jay becomes the prosecution's star witness and he tells the police that Adnan murdered Hae then contacted him to help dispose of the body. Jay also informs the police where Hae's car was abandoned. Other testimony from Jay's friend's roommate (insert Spaceballs joke here) is used to place Adnan with Jay the night that Hae disappeared. Adnan is convicted in 2000 and had imprisoned until recently.

The Serial podcast brought light to how Jay's story had progressively changed throughout the process. The thought was that he was coerced/coached by the detectives in order to fit a particular timeline based on the cell phone records. Apparently Jay had a reputation for either being a compulsive liar or throwing people under a bus to keep himself out of trouble. The thought is that Jay was a low level drug dealer, so he might have been motivated to cooperate in this case to avoid getting a harsher sentence for his own crimes.

The HBO documentary also found the class schedule for the friend's roommate and she should have been in class the night that Hae disappeared. So the thought being that her memory was off by a day. Subsequent analysis also found a possible typo in the cell phone tower report which threw further doubt into the police's theory plus the overall reliability of the data itself. The cell phone engineer in the original trial has since recanted the accuracy of his testimony.

Adnan's attorney from the original trial also disregarded a possible alibi witness who potentially talked with Adnan that afternoon in the library when the police asserted was during a brief window when the murder occurred and Jay claimed he had dropped Adnan back off at school.

Also may have been a bit of an inherent racial bias as Jay is African American as were 11 of the 12 jurors. Adnan's defense attorney (now deceased) was particularly abrasive. Serial contacted (at least) one of the jurors who noted that perhaps there was a sense of empathy for Jay as he was getting grilled on the stand. So instead of focusing on his inconsistent testimony, they just felt bad for him.

A few weeks back, Adnan was released from prison at the request of the prosecutor's office. Apparently there had been a Brady violation in the original case where the prosecutor didn't disclose alternative suspects to the defense. And then also recently there was a DNA analysis done on Hae's shoes which didn't come back with Adnan's DNA, so they've at least publicly cleared him as a suspect for the moment.
I vaguely recall the Smart disappearance. How can they have whiffed on that guy being the one to take her home if she never got home? She must have had some sort of friends at the last party or she wouldn't have been there. Where were her friends in all this? How can they have just not paid attention. Someone heard that guy insist on walking her back. Ugh. just awful.
 

Brodeur

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Feb 27, 2002
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San Diego
I vaguely recall the Smart disappearance. How can they have whiffed on that guy being the one to take her home if she never got home? She must have had some sort of friends at the last party or she wouldn't have been there. Where were her friends in all this? How can they have just not paid attention. Someone heard that guy insist on walking her back. Ugh. just awful.

I'd have to listen to it again, but I think she went to the party with a friend (or two?) but they weren't having a good time and wanted to leave. Smart decided she wanted to stay and her friends left. She got drunk at the party and apparently had passed out on the front lawn as things were winding down.

Couple other people helped her up and they started walking back to campus (about a mile away I think). One of the people said that Flores appeared out of the shadows at some point. I think it was a group of 4 or 5 walking back and then one by one they'd head off towards their particular dorm.

Unfortunately for Smart, the other people were random folks so they wouldn't have taken full responsibility to make sure she got back okay. But I think a couple of them either testified or told the podcast that Flores was acting sketchy and insisted to be the last one with her even though his dorm wasn't in the same part of campus.

It was unfortunate timing with the end of the school year happening a couple weeks after the party. The police had a slow response. Flores had a bit of a black eye which he said during his first police interview was from bumping his face while working on his car. Then in a later interview he said it was from getting elbowed in a basketball game.

Tough thing for the police is they needed evidence even if he was glaringly the prime suspect. I'll have to check if there was any new evidence introduced. I think it was mentioned that after the podcast came out that the Flores family began communicating about the case again and perhaps incriminated themselves potentially.
 
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Brodeur

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Feb 27, 2002
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San Diego
Looks like it was more circumstantial evidence in the case. They determined that a 4x6 area of soil underneath the dad's deck seemed suspicious and they found some blood evidence but not enough to make any conclusions. Part of me wishes they had some more irrefutable evidence but understandably tough 25+ years later.
 

Hisch13r

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May 16, 2012
35,256
36,021
NJ
It's better than we ever expected. It's better than what we left off with.

Appreciate it for that even if it's not a solid 8-10 all the time. They have 4 seasons planned so enjoy the ride and hope it maintains this quality throughout.


Signed,
Non book reader.

First 8 were but ep 9 felt very much like late GoT. At this point I trust everyone except Sara Hess but she is coming back. Basically all the issues I have with the show have been her decisions or likely her decisions
 
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Hisch13r

Registered User
May 16, 2012
35,256
36,021
NJ
I am not prepared for the heartbreak of this episode. I don't even know how Rhaenyra manages to function after losing her father, daughter, and son back to back to back. Little Luke was my favorite of the kids. He was so cute. This episode is going to break me and I'm someone who already even knows what is coming.
 
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