Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[Sidney the Kidney]

The same Pens team that carried Crosby in the finals with secondary scoring and strong goaltending? Ya what bums. Crosby was hardly a factor in that series, yet the team won in 7.

So basically, there’s no point in having a 50 goal scorer or another 100 point scorer if they don’t bother to show up. Pretty self explanatory

And Crosby's linemates "didn't bother to show up" that series either. But that doesn't stop you from constantly mentioning his lack of production. Weird how you're quick to defend McDavid's 3 assists in 3 games, which is about half the production he's put up prior to the finals, because he's not getting help from his linemates, but have no issue going on and on about Crosby's production versus Detroit while putting your fingers in your ears whenever someone mentions Kunitz and Guerin struggling mightily to convert anything that series being a massive reason for that.

Again, the point I was making is this idea that McDavid's team doesn't have the surrounding talent of that Pens' team is false. Just because Draisaitl's been a no-show so far doesn't mean he's a worse player than Max Talbot. It just means he's had a bad 3 games. Nobody in their right minds would say "if only McDavid had Talbot on his line rather than Draisaitl, the Oilers would be winning".

 

[CashMash]

Crosby in the top 5 ranking ahead of McDavid doesn't quite sit right

Gretzky - far and away the best player of his era
Lemieux - far and away the best player of his era
Orr - far and away the best player of his era
Howe - far and away the best player of his era
Crosby - lost the Art Ross to Jamie Benn in his prime?
McDavid - far and away the best player of his era

Seems like he would be a bit out of place

Everyone else lost an Art Ross to Jamie Benn that year too, and Crosby played fewer games. Granted, you could say that he missed so few that he should have had it in the bag, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree. Still... a bit of an arbitrary criteria. Crosby is still far and away the better player in comparison to Jamie Benn.

Where you would have a case is pointing to Ovechkin and Malkin not being considered in the top 5 despite being relatively close to Sid in performance. Sid DID have the year in 2012-13 where he would have won in a landslide without injury. Still, 2 Rosses and 1 that COULD be counted isn't as strong as McDavid's legacy will be, I think. I don't think it's fair to count 2010-11 as another potential Ross because it's based on pace alone over such a short period, so I won't do that... This playoffs just showed that pace can vary wildly even for the best players in the world.

If we hold Malkin, Ovechkin and Benn against Crosby, however, we should also remember that Draisaitl won the Ross in 2019-2020 over McDavid with a similar pace. Following your argument, did Gretzky ever get outscored by a teammate in his prime? Since he didn't, isn't McDavid out of place too? Now, we both know he is better than Draisaitl, so perhaps taking a single season as proof isn't a good measure? Kucherov won too, but I guess Gretzky lost to Lemieux a couple times... Still, Kucherov is no Lemieux.

 

[CashMash]

Having said what I said in the above post, McDavid IS the better scorer compared to Crosby. Crosby played his career in a lower-scoring environment, but I don't think that bridges the gap. Even so, I think I'd rather have Crosby's career than McDavid's, and it will PROBABLY remain that way. 3 Cups, 2 Smythes (though I feel the first should have gone to Kessel and the second to Malkin, but whatever... Both were by a hair).

If I had to draft one of them, you couldn't go wrong with either... I THINK McDavid would go ahead in the draft, but I MIGHT pick Crosby... Don't know.

 

[GreatGonzo]

And Crosby's linemates "didn't bother to show up" that series either. But that doesn't stop you from constantly mentioning his lack of production. Weird how you're quick to defend McDavid's 3 assists in 3 games, which is about half the production he's put up prior to the finals, because he's not getting help from his linemates, but have no issue going on and on about Crosby's production versus Detroit while putting your fingers in your ears whenever someone mentions Kunitz and Guerin struggling mightily to convert anything that series being a massive reason for that.

Again, the point I was making is this idea that McDavid's team doesn't have the surrounding talent of that Pens' team is false. Just because Draisaitl's been a no-show so far doesn't mean he's a worse player than Max Talbot. It just means he's had a bad 3 games. Nobody in their right minds would say "if only McDavid had Talbot on his line rather than Draisaitl, the Oilers would be winning".

My point was simple, Pitts secondary scoring was a huge part of them winning that series. Malkin went off and took over, Fleury(who struggled early) ended up stealing them some games.

It’s the Hypocrisy you choose to stand by. You give McDavid so much criticism because he isn’t performing to a standard YOU think he should be….all while your boy Crosby was hardly a factor in that Detroit series. McDavid has clearly been driving the play and has been their best forward.

It doesn’t matter if Edmonton has a better supporting cast when they don’t bother to show up. Pitt had guys that actually showed up when Crosbys line wasn’t getting it done. Malkin took advantage of the mismatch and eventually became their MVP.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Everyone else lost an Art Ross to Jamie Benn that year too, and Crosby played fewer games. Granted, you could say that he missed so few that he should have had it in the bag, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree. Still... a bit of an arbitrary criteria. Crosby is still far and away the better player in comparison to Jamie Benn.

Where you would have a case is pointing to Ovechkin and Malkin not being considered in the top 5 despite being relatively close to Sid in performance. Sid DID have the year in 2012-13 where he would have won in a landslide without injury. Still, 2 Rosses and 1 that COULD be counted isn't as strong as McDavid's legacy will be, I think. I don't think it's fair to count 2010-11 as another potential Ross because it's based on pace alone over such a short period, so I won't do that... This playoffs just showed that pace can vary wildly even for the best players in the world.

If we hold Malkin, Ovechkin and Benn against Crosby, however, we should also remember that Draisaitl won the Ross in 2019-2020 over McDavid with a similar pace. Following your argument, did Gretzky ever get outscored by a teammate in his prime? Since he didn't, isn't McDavid out of place too? Now, we both know he is better than Draisaitl, so perhaps taking a single season as proof isn't a good measure? Kucherov won too, but I guess Gretzky lost to Lemieux a couple times... Still, Kucherov is no Lemieux.

Considering Crosby has never had a season below ppg and he would have to go below ppg for 41 games for him to lose the Art Ross in 2011 it's pretty safe to say he would win if he hadn't been cheapshotted.

 

[CashMash]

Considering Crosby has never had a season below ppg and he would have to go below ppg for 41 games for him to lose the Art Ross in 2011 it's pretty safe to say he would win if he hadn't been cheapshotted.

Right. He has never had an entire season below PPG, but what's the longest stretch he's gone below PPG?

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Right. He has never had an entire season below PPG, but what's the longest stretch he's gone below PPG?

23 year old peak Crosby was absolutley not going under a ppg in 2011. Come on.

 

[CashMash]

23 year old peak Crosby was absolutley not going under a ppg in 2011. Come on.

I agree the chance for that is ALMOST 0, but I don't like the concept of Phantom Rosses. I am happy to grant those who want to argue for it the win, however. It does not change the overall point that McDavid is overall more offensively gifted. He actually *has* a 153-point season under his belt. Even with any adjustment you'd make for eras, Crosby's highest tally is 120 over a full season.

Even *if* he somehow maintained pace for the entire season, that's 132 points. You could say that's a lower scoring era, which it is, but it's already a favorable interpretation to assume that pace holds for the whole season.

Like I said--McDavid is more offensively gifted any way you slice it, so that part of my post still holds water. The thing is, as I mentioned in the post, I don't think that means Crosby is automatically disqualified from being Top 5 for his career. It's not clear cut who I'd rather draft if they both were up at the same time.

 

[WalterLundy]

The 09 Penguins were a great team? GTFO with that nonsense. Crosby in 09 through 21 games played (same as McDavid right now) was very clearly better than McDavid has been this playoffs.

And Crosby wouldn't be playing with Draisaitl any time he was in danger of going pointless. McDavid has zero points his last 5 games without #29 on the ice. Crosby also would not force his preferred system on the rest of the team, as his team has reached the finals playing very different systems each time.

Crosby has won at every level with worse teammates than McDavid. Maybe you should be asking deeper questions why that is? Like you think one team has the 3rd and 4th best playoff forwards of all time yet they can't win a single championship in 9 years? Do players not have any impact on their team's success?

I said he played on some great teams not that 09 specifically was a great team so you are attacking something I didn’t even bring to the table. 16 and 17 penguins were far better teams constructed for championships than the 2024 oilers. That’s not up for debate and why you only lunged at me with the 09 team. I’d rather have the 09 penguins as well (not by much) but that’s because I think very little of the 24 oilers. It’s an absolute miracle this team has made the finals.

Crosby hasn’t won with worse teammates than McDavid that is laughable and his best playoff performances statistically are not on par with McDavid’s.

Crosby was the best player in one of the four series in 2009 that being Washington. Malkin was better in the regular season and in the other three playoff rounds (and the playoffs as a whole). Crosby played well in 2009 to be sure but he was not the reason why they won the Stanley Cup nor was he their best player. He also was undeserving of two Conn Smythes with the 16 and 17 teams. Especially 2016. I told people that from here this exact thing as it was happening as well. Sure he still played well but they were very very weak Smythes. Crosby given his individual performances in the playoffs through the same point as McDavid would be cupless if he were swapped on to the 2016-2024 oilers. This is as obvious as the sky being blue and not controversial. I doubt that any forward in league history would have a cup if in this position.

 

[WalterLundy]

I agree the chance for that is ALMOST 0, but I don't like the concept of Phantom Rosses. I am happy to grant those who want to argue for it the win, however. It does not change the overall point that McDavid is overall more offensively gifted. He actually *has* a 153-point season under his belt. Even with any adjustment you'd make for eras, Crosby's highest tally is 120 over a full season.

Even *if* he somehow maintained pace for the entire season, that's 132 points. You could say that's a lower scoring era, which it is, but it's already a favorable interpretation to assume that pace holds for the whole season.

Like I said--McDavid is more offensively gifted any way you slice it, so that part of my post still holds water. The thing is, as I mentioned in the post, I don't think that means Crosby is automatically disqualified from being Top 5 for his career. It's not clear cut who I'd rather draft if they both were up at the same time.

Adjusted to 2010-11 levels
(2010-11: EVG: 2.01, PPG: 0.64, SHG: 0.08)

CM 20-21: 56 GP: 103 P (1.84)
CM 22-23: 82 GP: 139 P (1.70)
CM 23-24: 76 GP: 120 P (1.58)

*CM 23-24 from Nov 24, 2023 onward (injury recovery)
60 GP: 105 P (1.75)

Actual Crosby 2010-11:
41 GP: 66 P (1.61)

McDavid when adjusted directly to this much lamented low scoring era year to match absolute peak Crosby has two years clearly better and even this last season was nearly as good per game but sustained longer (with injuries as well). His healthy stretch this year is also 19 games longer and a higher level as well so three seasons so far have been better adjusted than Crosby’s best per game let alone pacing out unplayed games. Just wanted to post these stats in here to negate any “lower scoring” comments to try and close a pretty large gap. It doesn’t work. Post wasn’t necessarily directed at you but really just for everyone.

 

[#37]

Crosby in the top 5 ranking ahead of McDavid doesn't quite sit right

Gretzky - far and away the best player of his era
Lemieux - far and away the best player of his era
Orr - far and away the best player of his era
Howe - far and away the best player of his era
Crosby - lost the Art Ross to Jamie Benn in his prime?
McDavid - far and away the best player of his era

Seems like he would be a bit out of place

I see a list of winners, not sure what McDavid is doing amongst that company.

 

[CashMash]

Adjusted to 2010-11 levels
(2010-11: EVG: 2.01, PPG: 0.64, SHG: 0.08)

CM 20-21: 56 GP: 103 P (1.84)
CM 22-23: 82 GP: 139 P (1.70)
CM 23-24: 76 GP: 120 P (1.58)

*CM 23-24 from Nov 24, 2023 onward (injury recovery)
60 GP: 105 P (1.75)

Actual Crosby 2010-11:
41 GP: 66 P (1.61)

McDavid when adjusted directly to this much lamented low scoring era year to match absolute peak Crosby has two years clearly better and even this last season was nearly as good per game but sustained longer (with injuries as well). His healthy stretch this year is also 19 games longer and a higher level as well so three seasons so far have been better adjusted than Crosby’s best per game let alone pacing out unplayed games. Just wanted to post these stats in here to negate any “lower scoring” comments to try and close a pretty large gap. It doesn’t work. Post wasn’t necessarily directed at you but really just for everyone.

Alright! Thank you for that. It just goes to show that, offensively, there's not much of a comparison between the two.

 

[kevsh]

It's not clear cut who I'd rather draft if they both were up at the same time.

As of June 15, 2024, I take Crosby all day, every day.

However, I do acknowledge that McDavid - still a few years away from turning 30 - still has time to tilt things. But today, Sid.

 

[Roksta]

Its 2024 and you have a chance to draft 18 YO Crosby or McDavid.. why would you draft McDavid?
Crosby will score as many points in this soft post-covid league while being a winner at every levels

 

[Randyne]

Crosby will score as many points in this soft post-covid league while being a winner at every levels

No.
McDavid is carrying EDM. PIT is carrying Sid.

	team P% with	team P% without
Connor McDavid (EDM)	.583​	.446​
Sidney Crosby (PIT)	.608​	.634​

 

[Thallis]

And Crosby's linemates "didn't bother to show up" that series either. But that doesn't stop you from constantly mentioning his lack of production. Weird how you're quick to defend McDavid's 3 assists in 3 games, which is about half the production he's put up prior to the finals, because he's not getting help from his linemates, but have no issue going on and on about Crosby's production versus Detroit while putting your fingers in your ears whenever someone mentions Kunitz and Guerin struggling mightily to convert anything that series being a massive reason for that.

Again, the point I was making is this idea that McDavid's team doesn't have the surrounding talent of that Pens' team is false. Just because Draisaitl's been a no-show so far doesn't mean he's a worse player than Max Talbot. It just means he's had a bad 3 games. Nobody in their right minds would say "if only McDavid had Talbot on his line rather than Draisaitl, the Oilers would be winning".

It might be because that's contributing on 75% of his team's goals scored in the series so far, and his scoring chance generation has been a high % of the Oiler's total as well.

 

[slapKing]

No.
McDavid is carrying EDM. PIT is carrying Sid.

	team P% with	team P% without
Connor McDavid (EDM)	.583​	.446​
Sidney Crosby (PIT)	.608​	.634​

Anyone who says that Sidney Crosby is being carried by the Pens has no idea what they are talking about, or are just bad at trolling.

 

[Randyne]

Anyone who says that Sidney Crosby is being carried by the Pens has no idea what they are talking about, or are just bad at trolling.

Of course he is carried by the Pens if Pens play better or on the same level without him. Those stats it's not like for 10 missing games, it's 213 missed games or 2.5 seasons.

 

[slapKing]

Of course he is carried by the Pens if Pens play better or on the same level without him. Those stats it's not like for 10 games. It's for 213 games or 2.5 seasons.

Numbers don't lie, but they can be misinterpreted. You say Crosby is carried. I could easily say Malkin and the others pick up the slack when their captain is out and they do everything in their power to win. But let's say Crosby wasn't on the Pens. Would they say still be successful? Definitely not. It's a team game, but Sid is an important part of the team. No way Pens win 3 cups without Sid.

 

[Frank Drebin]

No.
McDavid is carrying EDM. PIT is carrying Sid.

	team P% with	team P% without
Connor McDavid (EDM)	.583​	.446​
Sidney Crosby (PIT)	.608​	.634​

Crazy statistic.

The Crosby/mcdavid comparisons will continue to look sillier and sillier as time goes on.

Mcdavid needs a cup a much as Lundquist needed one to be considered a better goalie than matt Murray

 

[Randyne]

Numbers don't lie, but they can be misinterpreted. You say Crosby is carried. I could easily say Malkin and the others pick up the slack when their captain is out and they do everything in their power to win. But let's say Crosby wasn't on the Pens. Would they say still be successful? Definitely not. It's a team game, but Sid is an important part of the team. No way Pens win 3 cups without Sid.

Malkin dreamed to be a captain, he would make his team a dynasty. Sid is a toxic whinner, the Pens could win more cups without him.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

My point was simple, Pitts secondary scoring was a huge part of them winning that series. Malkin went off and took over, Fleury(who struggled early) ended up stealing them some games.

It’s the Hypocrisy you choose to stand by. You give McDavid so much criticism because he isn’t performing to a standard YOU think he should be….all while your boy Crosby was hardly a factor in that Detroit series. McDavid has clearly been driving the play and has been their best forward.

It doesn’t matter if Edmonton has a better supporting cast when they don’t bother to show up. Pitt had guys that actually showed up when Crosbys line wasn’t getting it done. Malkin took advantage of the mismatch and eventually became their MVP.

Where am I criticizing McDavid? My literal only point is about this idea that the Oilers, as a team, have an inferior roster to the Penguins. That's literally it. Not a single part of my post was "criticism" of McDavid, nor have any of my posts about the supposed lack of depth. You're basically reading into anything I'm saying as "McDavid bad!" when my discussion is about the Oilers as a team versus the Penguins as a team.

The ONLY reason in bringing up McDavid's mediocre (by his standards) production is to point out YOUR hypocrisy, where you go on and on about Crosby's lack of production while dismissing the linemate contribution, yet will defend McDavid's lack of production as being because his linemates have been no-shows. If you can't see that hypocrisy then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Crosby absolutely needed those 3 cups to be considered an all time great.

Mcdavid doesn't

 

[slapKing]

Malkin dreamed to be a captain, he would make his team a dynasty. Sid is a toxic whinner, the Pens could win more cups without him.

Yeah this is where I'm going to bow out. At this point this conversation isn't going to go anywhere meaningful with statements like this. Have a good day.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Crosby absolutely needed those 3 cups to be considered an all time great.

Mcdavid doesn't

Come on, now. You can't honestly believe that first sentence. Even without the Cups, Crosby's got the individual resume to be an all time great. He may slip a few places in the overall ratings, but to act like he'd go from a Top 10 player all time to not even cracking the Top 50 without Cups is beyond silly.