Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[wetcoast]

Obviously it's smythe worthy, nobody's saying it isn't.... However, McDavid probably won't win it if the Oilers lose (Reggie Leach was the last forward to win a smythe on a losing team IIRC). Also, I explicitly said Big 4 level Conn Smythe. 34 points is definitely great but it's not Lemieux/Gretzky tier.

Actually I think that if you look at the scoring lead over their next highest non team mates McDavid this year is in the Gretzky/Mario level.

Mario in 91 had a 15 point lead over Brian Bellows and 17 over Dave Gagner.

In 92 he had a 12 point lead over Roenick.

Without looking he probably has a similar % of points on his team total goals that Gretzky and Mario had as well.

McDavid's clearly a phenomenal talent and I'd argue he has the 4th greatest prime/peak of all time as is. But if he wants a decisive argument over guys like Howe, Orr, or Lemieux, he's gonna need to compile as much hardware and accomplish as many feats as possible; a Gretzky/Lemieux tier smythe would've really helped his case. All I'm saying is that missing out on this opportunity to add more to his resume will make it a more difficult mountain to climb.

There is never going to be a decisive argument for any player over Howe/Orr and Mario heck some people even have Orr as #1 all time and a few misguided ones would pick Mario.

also a lot of people looking at these things get all googly eyed about video game numbers and don't fully take in the context of league dynamics at the time.

Take Gretzky and his great post season ever in 85 with his line of 18-17-30-47.

now it's a great statline but let's break it down a bit.

First round in a 3 game sweep of LA (14th in GA in a 21 team league) he goes 3-0-5-5 as the Oilers easily dispatch of the Kings.

next round against the 15th best defensive team in the league the Jets he goes 4-6-7-13 including a 7 point game in the 8-3 series finale.

In the 3rd round he has a mind boggling line of 6-4-14-18

11-2 win (4 point game)
7-3 win (3 point game)
5-2 loss in chicago zero points -2
8-6 loss in Chicago (3 points)
10-5 win back at home with 4 points
8-2 series win in chicago with 4 points.

I personally have Gretzky as the best playoff performer of all time but his numbers are gaudy in part due to the way his teams played and the league dynamics at the time.

Gretzky had 47 points on a team that scored 98 goals that post season.

Just to compare McDavid has 34 points on a team that has scored 67 goals this year.

FTR, I still think his ceiling is 4th all time above Howe (I value peak/prime over the other criteria and I don't think his peak can compete with Orr/Lemieux/Gretzky). If he can stay in his prime into his 30s and fizzle out as a highly elite player in his mid to late 30s, I'll probably put him over Howe, as I think he has the better peak by a little bit.

I think that he has a case for getting as high as #2 overall but could understand people having Orr above him but he certainly can become the second best forward of all time but he still has to play out his career.

 

[wetcoast]

I see a list of players who dominated their eras, not sure what Crosby is doing amongst that company.

What exactly are you unsure about?

Crosby has had the best post lockout career so far and is hands down the best player from his era and McDavid is now doing the same thing in his era.

McDavids problem is he hasn't won, Crosbys problem is that he wasn't as good as the others on the list. I'll take McDavid.

Well one can do anything in a hypothetical right?

 

[wetcoast]

Whether you guys like it or not, whether you think it's fair or not, the narrative matters more than stats.

Gretzky dominated every level of hockey, set records that'll likely never be broken, and most importantly, he won. There's not much you need to say about him.

Gordie Howe was top 5 in scoring for 20 straight seasons and won 4 cups. He won in the WHA, then he came back and played an NHL season when he was 50.

Bobby Orr revolutionized a position. He was way ahead of his time. He led the league in scoring as a defense men and won 2 cups.

Lemieux won Art Rosses when the league had Gretzky in it. He got cancer and put up 160 points in 60 games. Then he retired for 3 seasons and came back to put up 76 points in 43 games in the middle of the dead puck era. He captained the 02 team to win gold. He then rolled his unpaid salary into an ownership stake and kept the team in Pittsburgh. He also won 2 cups.

Crosby, along with Ovechkin came along at a time when the league needed new stars and they both delivered. Crosby led his team to 3 cups and scored the golden goal.

McDavid's story so far is that he's uber talented, and won a ton of individual trophies in a league that's made for speed and skill. Leading his team to the finals is great but if he's ever going to be #2 ever, or on the list of the greatest ever, he's got to win multiple cups. There's just no way around it. Everyone else on the list has cups. Lucky for him, he's still got time.

Agree with this but also will add that McDavid can become the #2 of all time without a SC just by having a couple more postseasons and another couple of regular seasons like this one and aging naturally in his 30s.

I men he has basically 8 straight season with 100+ points (97 in the shortened Covid 70ish game 19-20.

His 64 playoff assists over the last 3 years in 10 more than the highest non scoring team mate has in points.

He has 29 post season assists and the all time record is 31 from the 80s with Gretzky.

Sc or no SC that's quite the narrative.

 

[TheBeard]

Agree with this but also will add that McDavid can become the #2 of all time without a SC just by having a couple more postseasons an s regular seasons like this one and aging naturally in his 30s.

I men he has basically 8 straight season with 100+ points (97 in the shortened Covid 70ish game 19-20.

His 64 playoff assists over the last 3 years in 10 more than the highest non scoring team mate has in points.

He has 29 post season assists and the all time record is 31 from the 80s with Gretzky.

Sc or no SC that's quite the narrative.

No he can't. To break into that realm of top 5 you absolutely need to prove that you can rise above whatever weaknesses your team has and lead them to a cup win.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Sure did. He was better than them. They also made him better.

Crosby, a lock as a top 10 player of all time, struggled and was at times out scored by Malkin, who’s probably outside the top 50.

Gretzky was outscoring his own teammates by like 70pts in his 200pt seasons, and as far as I can remember, never came 2nd in scoring until maybe his later years.

It’s a level of domination never before seen in NHL history in Gretzkys case.

 

[crowfish]

What exactly are you unsure about?

Crosby has had the best post lockout career so far and is hands down the best player from his era and McDavid is now doing the same thing in his era.


Well one can do anything in a hypothetical right?

Crosby is the best player from his era, just not in a dominant way like the other greats I listed. It was close between him and Ovechkin for a lot of years. He lost several MVPs and scoring races to inferior players during healthy seasons.

Hart + Ross won leaderboard:

Gretzky - 19 in 20 seasons
Howe - 12 in 26 seasons
Lemieux - 9 in 17 seasons
McDavid - 8 in 9 seasons
Crosby - 4 in 19 seasons

 

[blundluntman]

Actually I think that if you look at the scoring lead over their next highest non team mates McDavid this year is in the Gretzky/Mario level.

Mario in 91 had a 15 point lead over Brian Bellows and 17 over Dave Gagner.

In 92 he had a 12 point lead over Roenick.

Without looking he probably has a similar % of points on his team total goals that Gretzky and Mario had as well.



There is never going to be a decisive argument for any player over Howe/Orr and Mario heck some people even have Orr as #1 all time and a few misguided ones would pick Mario.

also a lot of people looking at these things get all googly eyed about video game numbers and don't fully take in the context of league dynamics at the time.

Take Gretzky and his great post season ever in 85 with his line of 18-17-30-47.

now it's a great statline but let's break it down a bit.

First round in a 3 game sweep of LA (14th in GA in a 21 team league) he goes 3-0-5-5 as the Oilers easily dispatch of the Kings.

next round against the 15th best defensive team in the league the Jets he goes 4-6-7-13 including a 7 point game in the 8-3 series finale.

In the 3rd round he has a mind boggling line of 6-4-14-18

11-2 win (4 point game)
7-3 win (3 point game)
5-2 loss in chicago zero points -2
8-6 loss in Chicago (3 points)
10-5 win back at home with 4 points
8-2 series win in chicago with 4 points.

I personally have Gretzky as the best playoff performer of all time but his numbers are gaudy in part due to the way his teams played and the league dynamics at the time.

Gretzky had 47 points on a team that scored 98 goals that post season.

Just to compare McDavid has 34 points on a team that has scored 67 goals this year.



I think that he has a case for getting as high as #2 overall but could understand people having Orr above him but he certainly can become the second best forward of all time but he still has to play out his career.

These are all very good points honestly, I didn't realize the gap between him and his non-teammates was that big this post-season (or the percentage of goals he was involved in). I suppose I may need to reconsider what tier I'd place his current playoff run underneath with the points you brought up. Either way, I still consider his current stretch from 2022 to this year to be in a tier above pretty much any player outside of Gretzky/Lemieux/Roy in the last 30 years so I agree that he's at the very top of the pack.

Personally, I'd probably take McDavid over every player in league history besides Gretzky/Orr/Lemieux; (Howe would definitely give me some pause, but its at least a conversation). It's just tough to persuade fans/historians that he's in the conversation amongst the Big 4 if he doesn't clear every single category for "greatness". If they're even relatively close in every other category but McDavid doesn't have a smythe/cup (or something that gives him an edge), it'll probably be used against him whether it's fair or not.

I've said before that while I don't consider McDavid to be quite as dominant as Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr, he's had stretches where he was basically on their level, albeit maybe not for as long or as early/consistently as them. But if I can respect the argument for Howe at #2, I have to respect the possibility that McDavid still has a chance to insert himself into the conversation for others.

 

[WaW]

No. The Penguins collective defense shut down the Red Wings in games 6 and 7. Fleury was a part but not the biggest part.

Revisionist history is fun. People like you who were probably like 5 years old when the series happened and never actually watched it get to just make up whatever you want.

His unreal play in games 6 and 7 of that series to steal the cup from under Detroit's nose are the literal highest point of Fleury's HOF career. Your take is one of the most asinine I've ever read on this board and that's not even hyperbole. Holy f***ing hell.

 

[Rafafouille]

Mcdavid's now at 37 points. Beats Malkin(36) for the most for active players, tied with Paul Coffey for 6th all time.

 

[CN8]

But we were told that McDavid would light up the Panthers. We're waiting.

Wait no longer

 

[Rafafouille]

Mcdavid's now at 37 points. Beats Malkin(36) for the most for active players, tied with Paul Coffey for 6th all time.

Now tied with Gretzky in 1983 for 5th all time with 38. What a lad.

 

[Gurglesons]

Nice to see McDavid bust out today.

 

[TheSuperElite]

Highest playoff point season by anyone other than Gretzky/Lemieux.

 

[sportsdynasty]

McDavid broke Gretzky's playoff assist record tonight. Could go down as the greatest ever.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Please keep these threads for posterity.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Revisionist history is fun. People like you who were probably like 5 years old when the series happened and never actually watched it get to just make up whatever you want.

His unreal play in games 6 and 7 of that series to steal the cup from under Detroit's nose are the literal highest point of Fleury's HOF career. Your take is one of the most asinine I've ever read on this board and that's not even hyperbole. Holy f***ing hell.

Lol you have no idea what you're talking about. Fleury's best playoff performance was actually the year before when they lost. The Penguins playing the defensive structure ingrained in them by Therrien smothered the Red Wings offense and allowed almost no great chances the last two games. Or are we supposed to give Fleury credit for sliding out of position in the final minute of game 6 while his defenseman makes multiple saves behind him? Like Fleury was good in that series but he was certainly not the primary reason they won. The Penguins skaters outplayed those on Detroit.

Please keep these threads for posterity.

No one puts up points like him when the game is out of hand. 97 is invisible in the first period and after Florida gives up he piles on the points.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Lol you have no idea what you're talking about. Fleury's best playoff performance was actually the year before when they lost. The Penguins playing the defensive structure ingrained in them by Therrien smothered the Red Wings offense and allowed almost no great chances the last two games. Or are we supposed to give Fleury credit for sliding out of position in the final minute of game 6 while his defenseman makes multiple saves behind him? Like Fleury was good in that series but he was certainly not the primary reason they won. The Penguins skaters outplayed those on Detroit.


No one puts up points like him when the game is out of hand. 97 is invisible in the first period and after Florida gives up he piles on the points.

You're boring. Goodnight.

 

[Gurglesons]

Revisionist history is fun. People like you who were probably like 5 years old when the series happened and never actually watched it get to just make up whatever you want.

His unreal play in games 6 and 7 of that series to steal the cup from under Detroit's nose are the literal highest point of Fleury's HOF career. Your take is one of the most asinine I've ever read on this board and that's not even hyperbole. Holy f***ing hell.

Absolutely insane that someone is claiming Marc Andre Fleury "stole the series" in 2009 lol.

 

[Gurglesons]

Crosby is the best player from his era, just not in a dominant way like the other greats I listed. It was close between him and Ovechkin for a lot of years. He lost several MVPs and scoring races to inferior players during healthy seasons.

Hart + Ross won leaderboard:

Gretzky - 19 in 20 seasons
Howe - 12 in 26 seasons
Lemieux - 9 in 17 seasons
McDavid - 8 in 9 seasons
Crosby - 4 in 19 seasons

I don't think we've ever seen another era where two generational players like Sid and Ovechkin entered the league at identical times so I feel like it's a little bit of a rough ride to punish Crosby for that on top of his injuries.

Crosby did everything you could possibly ask him to despite the odds stacked against him especially when you factor in the majority of his career from 22 - 30 was in the "second dead puck era" if you will.

 

[TheBeard]

Crosby, a lock as a top 10 player of all time, struggled and was at times out scored by Malkin, who’s probably outside the top 50.

Gretzky was outscoring his own teammates by like 70pts in his 200pt seasons, and as far as I can remember, never came 2nd in scoring until maybe his later years.

It’s a level of domination never before seen in NHL history in Gretzkys case.

Lemieux outscored his teammates by 84 in 88-89. Probably would have done it the next year, when he has 123 points but only played 59 games. Probably would have done it in 92-93 as well when he had 160 points in 60 games (which is a 218 point game pace).

That last year he led the NHL in points by 12 DESPITE playing 24 games less than Lafontaine in second.

 

[BelovedIsles]

For my money, I prefer Crosby over McDavid. McDavid is electrifying, there is no doubting that. Crosby was also electrifying, and could beat you in so many ways. He could play a power game, possess the puck down low for whole shifts. He could fly through the neutral zone and meander through 5 defenders. He could find soft spots and snipe. He played a 200 ft game, dominated the full sheet of ice.

This is no anti-McDavid agenda; he has left me in awe, Crosby just did it more.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

You can definitely make the argument that McDavid has positioned himself in the top 10 of all time, but he isn't in the top 5 quite yet. But he might be by the time his career is complete.

 

[cruisecity]

You can definitely make the argument that McDavid has positioned himself in the top 10 of all time, but he isn't in the top 5 quite yet. But he might be by the time his career is complete.

He already has more hardware than pretty much everyone.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Lemieux outscored his teammates by 84 in 88-89. Probably would have done it the next year, when he has 123 points but only played 59 games. Probably would have done it in 92-93 as well when he had 160 points in 60 games (which is a 218 point game pace).

That last year he led the NHL in points by 12 DESPITE playing 24 games less than Lafontaine in second.

All I see is a lot of probably.

Gretzky did it

 

[TheBeard]

All I see is a lot of probably.

Gretzky did it

Ok. He LITERALLY did it in 88-89.