Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[Gurglesons]

Just sayin' ....

First 3 Games of Their First Cup Finals:

Gretzky: 3 points (0 goals)
Lemieux: 3 points
Crosby: 2 points
McDavid: 3 points

Gretzky at 27 - 4 Cups.
Lemieux at 27 - 2 Cups.
Crosby at 27 - 1 Cup - 2 SCFs.

I think that's maybe where people think there is a difference.

 

[Soundwave]

Gretzky at 27 - 4 Cups.
Lemieux at 27 - 2 Cups.
Crosby at 27 - 1 Cup - 2 SCFs.

I think that's maybe where people think there is a difference.

Yeah the difference is those other players had far better teams around them, Gretzky had a team so good that it lost him and Coffey and Fuhr and still won a Cup anyway. Lemieux had a team where they just added willy nilly like 5 All-Star players around him with no salary cap restrictions.

Crosby also had better team building around him.

It's really that simple IMO, if it wasn't then how many Cups did Gretzky win after Edmonton?

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah the difference is those other players had far better teams around them, Gretzky had a team so good that it lost him and Coffey and Fuhr and still won a Cup anyway. Lemieux had a team where they just added willy nilly like 5 All-Star players around him.

Crosby also had better team building around him.

It's really that simple IMO, if it wasn't then how many Cups did Gretzky win after Edmonton?

The 2009 Penguins and the 2024 Oilers are pretty much near identical rosters.

I'm tired of hearing about how great the Oilers roster is one second and then immediately about how "Crosby had better teams".

In 15-16 and 16-17, I'll buy that argument.

 

[Soundwave]

The 2009 Penguins and the 2024 Oilers are pretty much near identical rosters.

Yes the Oilers are getting closer to the Penguins even in play style, which is good, but it also tells you something when it's taken Oilers management how many more years to get even to this point? Crosby had that team already by like year 3. But there is still one huge difference --

Skinner has Dan Cloutier stats.

MAF was outstanding in 2008 and very good in 3/4 rounds in 2009 when they won, including probably being their best player in the Finals.

I don't think the Penguins win a Cup with .895 goaltending in 2009. I don't think they even make the Finals if I'm honest.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yes the Oilers are getting closer to the Penguins even in play style, which is good, but it also tells you something when it's taken Oilers management how many more years to get even to this point? Crosby had that team already by like year 3. But there is still one huge difference --

Skinner has Dan Cloutier stats.

MAF was outstanding in 2008 and very good in 3/4 rounds in 2009 when they won, including probably being their best player in the Finals.

I don't think the Penguins win a Cup with .895 goaltending in 2009. I don't think they even make the Finals if I'm honest.

MAF was an average goaltender in 2009.

Crosby had what team exactly?

Connor McDavid has had multiple 100 point forwards and now added a 50 goal scorer and an 80 point defensemen.

Maybe he should just follow Dater's advice and just win some time if he's going to be considered the second best forward of all time.

I'm not really sure what else the Oilers need to add. Skinner is not losing them the series. The fact not a single one of the Oilers top six forwards have a goal is.

Crosby's "great rosters" also faced what is unquestionably one of the top 3 cap era teams in the Red Wings.

 

[crowfish]

That first sentence is a first ballot entry to the HfBoards Hall of Fame.

I love it. People are so convinced that Crosby raised his game to some crazy level in the playoffs yet it never happened. They cannot believe it when I call it out. It is one of those accepted falsehoods that you are supposed to play along with.

 

[Soundwave]

MAF was an average goaltender in 2009.

Crosby had what team exactly?

Connor McDavid has had multiple 100 point forwards and now added a 50 goal scorer and an 80 point defensemen.

Maybe he should just follow Dater's advice and just win some time if he's going to be considered the second best forward of all time.

I'm not really sure what else the Oilers need to add. Skinner is not losing them the series. The fact not a single one of the Oilers top six forwards have a goal is.

Crosby's "great rosters" also faced what is unquestionably one of the top 3 cap era teams in the Red Wings.

He was very good in 3/4 rounds, they got a little lucky that in the one round he was shit in, Washington also had terrible goaltending (poor Ovy).

But in the 2009 Finals, particularily the last two games, MAF practically carried them over the top. If the NHL had a Finals MVP like the NBA does, MAF probably wins it.


Beyond that "average" would be a large upgrade over Skinner, Skinner has some of the worst playoff stats in the modern history of the game, we're talking right next to Dan Cloutier.

The Oilers are to their credit becoming a lot more like those Pittsburgh teams in play style. They are getting there. It's just because of a lot of managerial incompetence that it's taking a lot longer to build a similar level of team for McDavid. 5 million on Campbell who's not even playing, 3 million overpaid on Nurse, still 2 million in dead cap from the Lucic/Neal fiasco, that's 10 million in cap space that could buy a lot of depth.

That's not McDavid's fault, that's the fault of his GMs.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I love it. People are so convinced that Crosby raised his game to some crazy level in the playoffs yet it never happened. They cannot believe it when I call it out. It is one of those accepted falsehoods that you are supposed to play along with.

McDavid has been outscored 33 to 34 in his playoff career 5v5 without Draisaitl on his line. Top 5 player of all time my ass.

 

[Voight]

judging someone’s abilities strictly on pts/game is an amateur look at hockey. It doesn’t tell a true story of a players ability

Ironically though, that's the stats the Crosby Fanboys love the most.

 

[Gurglesons]

He was very good in 3/4 rounds, they got a little lucky that in the one round he was shit in, Washington also had terrible goaltending (poor Ovy).

But in the 2009 Finals, particularily the last two games, MAF practically carried them over the top. If the NHL had a Finals MVP like the NBA does, MAF probably wins it.


Beyond that "average" would be a large upgrade over Skinner, Skinner has some of the worst playoff stats in the modern history of the game, we're talking right next to Dan Cloutier.

The Oilers are to their credit becoming a lot more like those Pittsburgh teams in play style. They are getting there. It's just because of a lot of managerial incompetence that it's taking a lot longer to build a similar level of team for McDavid. 5 million on Campbell who's not even playing, 3 million overpaid on Nurse, still 2 million in dead cap from the Lucic/Neal fiasco, that's 10 million in cap space that could buy a lot of depth.

That's not McDavid's fault, that's the fault of his GMs.

I dunno. I never see these excuses for the teams where Lemieux and Crosby couldn't succeed.

Fact is if you want to be the 2nd best player of all time. You gotta win a cup.

We can blame McDavid's roster issues, but nobody will care about that in the future.

Let's not pretend Ray Shero ineptitude to get forward depth and Crosby's injuries didn't erase multiple years out of his prime. He still won 3 cups, that's why he is viewed as a top 5 player of all time. The best of the best find a way.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

The 2009 Penguins and the 2024 Oilers are pretty much near identical rosters.

I'm tired of hearing about how great the Oilers roster is one second and then immediately about how "Crosby had better teams".

In 15-16 and 16-17, I'll buy that argument.

The Oilers the last two years have had a clearly better roster outside of their two stars than the 09 Penguins.

 

[Soundwave]

I dunno. I never see these excuses for the teams where Lemieux and Crosby couldn't succeed.

Fact is if you want to be the 2nd best player of all time. You gotta win a cup.

We can blame McDavid's roster issues, but nobody will care about that in the future.

Well I mean OK, but if you want context it kind of matters. Wayne and Mario never won anything without rosters far better than any team they ever played against and Gretzky still lost to an inferior Flames team in 1986 in his peak/prime, along with being upset by the Kings in 1982 and then swept in the Finals in 1983.

Mario couldn't even reliably make the playoffs until he had like 6-7 other really great players put around him.

Crosby won early in his career and then went several years without winning again until he was gifted another star player in Kessel who was top 6-8 in scoring several seasons prior without Crosby or Malkin, this would be like giving McDavid and Draisaitl like Pastrnak or Tkachuk or something on top of a good D and two good goalies (MAF and pre injuries Murray).

The Oilers are trending in the right direction, they are more like 09 Penguins now, but there's still a significant difference in those two teams' goaltending. There's no way Skinner is as good as MAF.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I think it's becoming increasingly clear that Malkin is just a level above Draisaitl in deep playoff rounds.

0 points in 3 games - 2
McDavid: 3 points in 3 games +-0

2009 Finals
Malkin: 8 points in 7 games +-0
Crosby: 3 points in 7 games -3


That Malkin stepped up and let the SCF in scoring was such a massive moment for the Penguins. Sure, both Crosby and McDavid weren't great. But Malkin being a worldbeater and Draisaitl being pointless is really the difference maker between the two teams.

 

[12ozPapa]

McDavid is soft, period. He is the most talented player but the guy is a pansy.

 

[Soundwave]

I think it's becoming increasingly clear that Malkin is just a level above Draisaitl in deep playoff rounds.

0 points in 3 games - 2
McDavid: 3 points in 3 games +-0

2009 Finals
Malkin: 8 points in 7 games +-0
Crosby: 3 points in 7 games -3


That Malkin stepped up and let the SCF in scoring was such a massive moment for the Penguins. Sure, both Crosby and McDavid weren't great. But Malkin being a worldbeater and Draisaitl being pointless is really the difference maker between the two teams.

Malkin had 0 points in his first 3 Finals games. So did Messier. Kind of interesting actually how similar it is (all three teams also got shut out in game 1 of their first Finals). He obviously stepped up in the 2nd Finals.

 

[Tryblot]

If he doesn't win the cup he will be the best player to never win the cup. Wouldn't be second best all time though. Can't be top 5 without winning the cup.

 

[Spitfire11]

I think it's becoming increasingly clear that Malkin is just a level above Draisaitl in deep playoff rounds.

0 points in 3 games - 2
McDavid: 3 points in 3 games +-0

2009 Finals
Malkin: 8 points in 7 games +-0
Crosby: 3 points in 7 games -3


That Malkin stepped up and let the SCF in scoring was such a massive moment for the Penguins. Sure, both Crosby and McDavid weren't great. But Malkin being a worldbeater and Draisaitl being pointless is really the difference maker between the two teams.

I think Draisaitl is clearly playing with a significant injury. Malkin was injured in the 2008 finals and played like crap then too.

 

[LDX]

Out of curiosity, how are Zetterberg and Barkov compared when trying to push the 24' McDavid vs 09' Crosby ?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Crosby also had better team building around him.

I don't know why people still push this narrative. McDavid usually gets to play next to Draisaitl and Hyman, while Crosby's linemates during the 2009 Cup run were Kunitz and Guerin. Malkin's linemates during the 2009 Cup run were Talbot and Fedotenko.

Where is this "extra help" Crosby gets that McDavid doesn't? Everyone likes to point at pure production, but refuses to acknowledge it's going to be easier to put up points if you've got Draisaitl/Hyman on your flanks rather than Kunitz/Guerin or Talbot/Fedotenko.

McDavid's literally got a 50+ goal guy and a 100+ point guy on both his wings and there's still talk about him not getting enough help. Maybe permanently split up McDavid and Draisaitl and suddenly they'd have the depth to rival Crosby and Malkin playing on two different lines?

 

[Gurglesons]

Well I mean OK, but if you want context it kind of matters. Wayne and Mario never won anything without rosters far better than any team they ever played against and Gretzky still lost to an inferior Flames team in 1986 in his peak/prime, along with being upset by the Kings in 1982 and then swept in the Finals in 1983.

Mario couldn't even reliably make the playoffs until he had like 6-7 other really great players put around him.

Crosby won early in his career and then went several years without winning again until he was gifted another star player in Kessel who was top 6-8 in scoring several seasons prior without Crosby or Malkin, this would be like giving McDavid and Draisaitl like Pastrnak or Tkachuk or something on top of a good D and two good goalies (MAF and pre injuries Murray).

The Oilers are trending in the right direction, they are more like 09 Penguins now, but there's still a significant difference in those two teams' goaltending. There's no way Skinner is as good as MAF.

The only context that matters when talking about who the 2nd best player of all time is, is how many championships.

There is a reason Jaromir Jagr despite having 5 art ross trophies isn't viewed as a player that is better than Crosby.

Also, Kessel never scored 50 goals or 100 points. RNH and Hyman did each respectively.

I'm not sure what roster people are expecting McDavid to have.

Out of curiosity, how are Zetterberg and Barkov compared when trying to push the 24' McDavid vs 09' Crosby ?

Zetterberg in 08 and 09 was probably a level above Barkov tbh.

 

[WaW]

The 2009 Penguins and the 2024 Oilers are pretty much near identical rosters.

I'm tired of hearing about how great the Oilers roster is one second and then immediately about how "Crosby had better teams".

In 15-16 and 16-17, I'll buy that argument.

One of those teams had a HOF goalie, the other has Skinner, I think that's a pretty big difference.

 

[Gurglesons]

One of those teams had a HOF goalie, the other has Skinner, I think that's a pretty big difference.

A HOF goalie who was .909 in a year where .909 was average goaltending and has been one of the worst playoff goaltenders in league history.

Marc-Andre Fleury is the Most Overrated Goalie of the Cap Era

He belongs nowhere near the Hockey Hall of Fame.

jfresh.substack.com

 

[WaW]

A HOF goalie who was .909 in a year where .909 was average goaltending and has been one of the worst playoff goaltenders in league history.

Marc-Andre Fleury is the Most Overrated Goalie of the Cap Era

He belongs nowhere near the Hockey Hall of Fame.

jfresh.substack.com

You'll find the internet to be a bit easier if you stop trying to galaxy brain everything.

 

[Gurglesons]

You'll find the internet to be a bit easier if you stop trying to galaxy brain everything.

Don't need to galaxy brain everything. The 2009 Penguins are one of the worst teams I've ever seen win a Stanley Cup.

 

[WaW]

Don't need to galaxy brain everything. The 2009 Penguins are one of the worst teams I've ever seen win a Stanley Cup.

...because their HOF goalie put up a .960 in the final two games to win them games 6 and 7 by himself.

I don't get what's so hard to understand about HOF goalie vs Stuart Skinner