Combined Goalie Discussion Thread - PART TWO!

[saltming]

That bar was set so low for improvement.

Yup but it is what it is

 

[ToneDog]

We're in here talking about buyouts and what we'd need to attach to him to get rid of him

He's also been God awful for months, injured 3 times and is doubtful for the playoffs because he's broken down again

I'm not sure what your definition of a total disaster is but if he's not it's pretty damn close Salt

Willing to bet the suits that did not want to extend Dubas, are as impressed with the Murray move as you and many Leafs fans are. Outwitted by a desperate Dorion takes some kind of brain cramping.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Willing to bet the suits that did not want to extend Dubas, are as impressed with the Murray move as you and many Leafs fans are. Outwitted by a desperate Dorion takes some kind of brain cramping.

Don't write off Murray just yet ..he may really surprise you in playoffs .. of course assuming he is healthy .. he was brought here for 1 reason and for me I am most comfortable with him as he knows how to do it .. other 2 guys will have doubts .. too soon to write off

 

[Dekes For Days]

He is an improvement from our backup last year. That alone is an improvement

Heck, not only that - he's been an improvement on every goalie on our team last year. How quickly we get spoiled.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Ottawa retained so his salary is 4.5.gets easier to handle

It’s 4.7 cap hit, 6.3 in salary

 

[ToneDog]

Don't write off Murray just yet ..he may really surprise you in playoffs .. of course assuming he is healthy .. he was brought here for 1 reason and for me I am most comfortable with him as he knows how to do it .. other 2 guys will have doubts .. too soon to write off

Never say never but I am guessing with his head injury, he may not be ready if needed in round #1. Maybe he does a Murray in round #3 like he did for the Pens but I'm not betting on it.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

The only reason this hasn't turned into an absolute **** show is Woll taking a massive and unforseen developmental step forward
Samsonov playing far better than he has for literally years and Kallgren getting some wins

Murray has been injured at least 3 times, been God awful for months and is basically unusable as we go into the playoffs

The Murray trade was bad at the time, is bad now and the entire management team should be hauled into a room to explain how they thought this was in any way a good idea especially when the guys cap hit is over 4.5M

For a so called "smart" management team they sure do some of the dumbest **** imaginable

why is it a lucky break that three of the goalies have been varying levels of good, but a damning indictment of the team's approach to goaltending that one of their goalies has struggled?

 

[ToneDog]

Heck, not only that - he's been an improvement on every goalie on our team last year. How quickly we get spoiled.

Amazing how far you will reach to find a silver lining. Spoiled because we do not appreciate the transition from Mrazek to Murray ?? We are not worthy.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Amazing how far you will reach to find a silver lining. Spoiled because we do not appreciate the transition from Mrazek to Murray ??

What's amazing is that we're just over a week away from the playoffs, our starter has been great, our overall team goaltending (which we gained assets to acquire) has been good, we have 3 goalies with positive goaltending impacts this year (after having zero last year), and yet this place is in meltdown mode, dumping on a guy who is injured as a result of banging his head on the ice after having his legs taken out from under him, because one of our 3 positive impact goalies this year wasn't as positive as we wanted them to be.

 

[ACC1224]

Amazing how far you will reach to find a silver lining. Spoiled because we do not appreciate the transition from Mrazek to Murray ?? We are not worthy.

Goalie acquired could be the ghost of Terry Sawchuk but he's of no use to the Team when he can't play.
I don't think that's cause for any celebration.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Never say never but I am guessing with his head injury, he may not be ready if needed in round #1. Maybe he does a Murray in round #3 like he did for the Pens but I'm not betting on it.

You are probably right .. it might very well be da end of Murray .. what a way to go if that turns out to be it

 

[Larcos_Unal]

Starting to think that pinning our playoff hopes on a goalie that was put on waivers by the Sens may have been a bad idea.

 

[saltming]

It’s 4.7 cap hit, 6.3 in salary

Correct

 

[Mess]

Amazing how far you will reach to find a silver lining. Spoiled because we do not appreciate the transition from Mrazek to Murray ?? We are not worthy.

When the objective is to defend Dubas at all cost, you must pump up the tires of Murray, however you have to do it at the expense of Mrazek and Campbell who were previous Dubas mistakes.

Pretty tricky trying to thread that needle, but at least there is progress admitting Dubas previous goalie decisions now removed were mistakes and no longer defending those moves.

Now we just need to wait to Murray is removed and replaced for everyone not yet on board to see the light.

 

[GoonieFace]

When the objective is to defend Dubas at all cost, you must pump up the tires of Murray, however you have to do it at the expense of Mrazek and Campbell who were previous Dubas mistakes.

Pretty tricky trying to thread that needle, but at least there is progress admitting Dubas previous goalie decisions now removed were mistakes and no longer defending those moves.

Now we just need to wait to Murray is removed and replaced for everyone not yet on board to see the light.

Proof if you throw enough sh$t at a wall, something will eventually stick

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

I got hit HARD for lobbying for Ullmark to the Leafs and defending Boston's move to pick him up. But for me the signs where all there and I wasn't that worried when he had a mediocre (by this year's standards - he was still a .917) first season.

Of course with goaltending it's always a gamble which is why studying goalies visually is extremely important to get an idea of how big a gamble you are taking - how are their tools, their technique and most importantly are the saves they make repeatable and how often are they able to maintain a goaltending position - meaning making a save in a position where they could easily move into a second save.

I expected the downfall of Jack Campbell because his technique was inconsistent - he was making different movements to different positions and was inconsistent with his depth in the similar scenarios. He also made a lot of saves where he was off-balance or disengaged to the point where he would not be able to move immediately in one or both directions after the save.

Joseph Woll rates highly for me in these regards. I'm not too sure where his ceiling is yet (there is the mental side which only time can tell) but when I watch him I feel like his technique is very repeatable. He enters and exists posts the same way, he is at consistent depth when faced with similar situations and his movement around the crease is exceptional. He also makes a very high percentage of his saves in a goaltending position. I remember a couple of saves where he covered a really huge distance laterally and made the save in a controlled butterfly and also used his edges to break rather than slide out of position and scramble back.

Samsonov is somewhere in-between Woll and Campbell technically, I think he is about at his ceiling right now.

Murray on the other hand feels like a complete enigma. There's times he looks technically immaculate, and times he looks like he's flopping all over the place. Really hard goalie to evaluate and get a good read on imo.

Everything's subjective of course, our eyes all pick up different things so if anyone has a bettter read on Murray keen to hear it.

Woll has come a long way. He always had the tools. A lot of people don't know this but skating is the most important tool when it comes to goaltending. The way the position is played now, edge work is so important when it comes to positioning and how quickly you can cover a lot of ice. Woll has always had that and has been touted by coaches and scouts as having some of the best skating skill they've ever seen.

I always said he would be an NHL goalie as long as he worked on his balance and rebound control. Watching him with the Marlies, he had a bad tendency of falling over and making off balance saves on cross ice plays, leaving him vulnerable on rebounds and not being able to recover. I dont see that in his game now. He's making upright, controlled movements within the blue paint and is rarely being caught out of position. With his skating and size, he is making coverage look so fast and effortless.

As far as him becoming a starter, that will likely come down to the mental side of the game and staying consistent. His demeanor and the fact that he is a big time student of the game suggest to me that he could get there. He already has the tools.

 

[Dekes For Days]

When the objective is to defend Dubas at all cost, you must pump up the tires of Murray, however you have to do it at the expense of Mrazek and Campbell who were previous Dubas mistakes.
Pretty tricky trying to thread that needle, but at least there is progress admitting Dubas previous goalie decisions now removed were mistakes and no longer defending those moves.
Now we just need to wait to Murray is removed and replaced for everyone not yet on board to see the light.

How wildly inappropriate for you to lie about other people's objectives and intentions, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
Discussing our goaltending in an objective, honest way is not "defending Dubas at all cost" or "pumping the tires of Murray".

You can be disappointed that we haven't gotten more out of Murray so far, without spreading incorrect, misleading, and defamatory statements about them, acting like it's some unmitigated disaster, and ignoring Dubas' goaltending successes, and that not only has our team's goaltending been massively improved and good this year, but Murray himself has brought positive goaltending impacts to our team, even if it's less than most hoped. The season is not yet over, and we don't know how Murray's story here will end. He could still end up being valuable in the playoffs, and considering how you continuously suggest that the playoffs are all that matter, one would think you would wait for them to conclude before closing the book on a player's contributions.

One would also think fans of a top-5 team in the league would be more concerned with the impending playoffs and the goalie that's actually starting game 1, than having a wildly exaggerated meltdown over one of our secondary goalies not being as good as we wanted. You can't find a more appropriate time to attack a player who's currently injured after getting his legs swept out from under him and banging his head on the ice?

Also, for the record, just because a goalie ends up having a bad season or isn't worth re-signing doesn't them a mistake. Campbell, for example, had a decent period of playing well for us at a good cap hit, before it collapsed last year. Just because he wasn't worth re-signing years later at a 5m cap hit for 5 years, like you were advocating for, that doesn't make the move to acquire him a mistake.

By that logic, Andersen was garbage by the time he was done here, so Lou's decision to acquire Andersen was horrible, right?

 

[IPS]

Let's play a game. Guess which goalies are the former Leafs goalies and which goalie is the current Leafs goalie.

I get the outrage about the Murray trade - it sucked, but Dubas did ultimately improve the goaltending.

 

[saltming]

We brought Murray in to be our Vasilevskiy, now we're relying on a guy with one career playoff win and a kid with very little experience

I have a lot of faith in Samsonov but Jesus that's one hell of a dice roll

You're making an assumption.
We brought in 2 goalies with the hopes they would both be amazing.
Murray: could he regain form and had data saying that it was quite possible
Samsonov: could he revise his playing style, something he finally admitted he needed to do.

I said it then that samsonov was the most underrated part of the goalie tandem. Murray has the name and all the focus was on him, but you and most fans assumed he was acquired to be the #1 but at no time did the Leafs act that way. From the start they seemed to split games as evenly as possible

 

[saltming]

I got hit HARD for lobbying for Ullmark to the Leafs and defending Boston's move to pick him up. But for me the signs where all there and I wasn't that worried when he had a mediocre (by this year's standards - he was still a .917) first season.

Of course with goaltending it's always a gamble which is why studying goalies visually is extremely important to get an idea of how big a gamble you are taking - how are their tools, their technique and most importantly are the saves they make repeatable and how often are they able to maintain a goaltending position - meaning making a save in a position where they could easily move into a second save.

I expected the downfall of Jack Campbell because his technique was inconsistent - he was making different movements to different positions and was inconsistent with his depth in the similar scenarios. He also made a lot of saves where he was off-balance or disengaged to the point where he would not be able to move immediately in one or both directions after the save.

Joseph Woll rates highly for me in these regards. I'm not too sure where his ceiling is yet (there is the mental side which only time can tell) but when I watch him I feel like his technique is very repeatable. He enters and exists posts the same way, he is at consistent depth when faced with similar situations and his movement around the crease is exceptional. He also makes a very high percentage of his saves in a goaltending position. I remember a couple of saves where he covered a really huge distance laterally and made the save in a controlled butterfly and also used his edges to break rather than slide out of position and scramble back.

Samsonov is somewhere in-between Woll and Campbell technically, I think he is about at his ceiling right now.

Murray on the other hand feels like a complete enigma. There's times he looks technically immaculate, and times he looks like he's flopping all over the place. Really hard goalie to evaluate and get a good read on imo.

Everything's subjective of course, our eyes all pick up different things so if anyone has a bettter read on Murray keen to hear it.

That's for the words to this. I love Woll and I'm excited to see him oflver a larger sample size. I wouldn't mind Sammy Woll tandem next year as I'm comfortable with Sammy now taking a heavier load.

My theory is that goalies seem to have an expiry date,like suddenly they just don't have it. Age injuries and natural gifts come into play. I'm wondering if that's Murray now?

 

[JKG33]

That's for the words to this. I love Woll and I'm excited to see him oflver a larger sample size. I wouldn't mind Sammy Woll tandem next year as I'm comfortable with Sammy now taking a heavier load.

My theory is that goalies seem to have an expiry date,like suddenly they just don't have it. Age injuries and natural gifts come into play. I'm wondering if that's Murray now?

If you wanna talk about an expiry date, Murray was well past his even when Ottawa acquired him

 

[saltming]

If you wanna talk about an expiry date, Murray was well past his even when Ottawa acquired him

Very possible. He's had a rough path and it sad that any player loses their career because of injury

 

[Peasy]

That's for the words to this. I love Woll and I'm excited to see him oflver a larger sample size. I wouldn't mind Sammy Woll tandem next year as I'm comfortable with Sammy now taking a heavier load.

My theory is that goalies seem to have an expiry date,like suddenly they just don't have it. Age injuries and natural gifts come into play. I'm wondering if that's Murray now?

Can't be a good feeling being a goalie and not being able to fully trust your body. Can cause you to cheat on shots or the basic movements. Theres a long list of goalies suddenly becoming cooked either due to injury, mental abilities or the book being out on them.

Murray basically has 2 of the 3 already. Books been out on him for quite some time and he hasnt adapted well to that, and now you can throw injuries on top of that.

 

[saltming]

Can't be a good feeling being a goalie and not being able to fully trust your body. Can cause you to cheat on shots or the basic movements. Theres a long list of goalies suddenly becoming cooked either due to injury, mental abilities or the book being out on them.

Murray basically has 2 of the 3 already. Books been out on him for quite some time and he hasnt adapted well to that, and now you can throw injuries on top of that.

According to the Woodley podcast he was adjusting his technique and massive that's what field his got start? Then the injuries happened and as you said, probably go into his head

 

[GoonieFace]

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Let's play a game. Guess which goalies are the former Leafs goalies and which goalie is the current Leafs goalie.

I get the outrage about the Murray trade - it sucked, but Dubas did ultimately improve the goaltending.

I guess he has, but he eventually is going to get lucky. I mean he traded for Campbell and signed Mrazek, whom I’m guessing are 2 of these. He had to correct both those mistakes, made another mistake with Murray. Samsonov has played well, I guess he’s hitting .250