Combined Goalie Discussion Thread - PART TWO!

[Dekes For Days]

Yeah Mrazek was just brutal from the signing to paying to get rid of him. Dubas had a chance to take away some of that sting with Murray but he wasn't up to the task.

I'd say getting paid an early 3rd and 7th to take on a goalie performing really well takes away a lot of the sting of the previous, reasonable goalie signing not working out well and paying 13 rather meaningless draft slots to move on from him.

 

[LeafsNation75]

We didn't trade a 1st to get rid of Mrazek. We traded down 13 draft slots to get rid of Mrazek. The media really worked the fanbase into a frenzy leading up to the Murray trade, with all sorts of fantastical and unrealistic scenarios, so the normal return we got for taking on a slightly overpaid goalie after retention looked underwhelming.
Like what do people think 2 years of like 700k cap is worth?

Actually, Kyle Dubas did trade a 1st round pick to get rid of Mrzaek, even if it was falling back 13 draft picks to the 38th overall pick of the 2nd round.

Toronto Maple Leafs Acquire:

2022 2nd round pick (CHI - #38 - Fraser Minten)

Chicago Blackhawks Acquire:

Petr Mrázek · $3,800,000
2022 1st round pick (TOR - #25 - Sam Rinzel)

So that's no different compared to the time Dubas paid Carolina the Leafs 2020 1st round pick to take on Patrick Marleau, so they could afford to buy him out.

 

[LeafChief]

Actually, Kyle Dubas did trade a 1st round pick to get rid of Mrzaek, even if it was falling back 13 draft picks to the 38th overall pick of the 2nd round.

Toronto Maple Leafs Acquire:​

2022 2nd round pick (CHI - #38 - Fraser Minten)

Chicago Blackhawks Acquire:​

Petr Mrázek · $3,800,000
2022 1st round pick (TOR - #25 - Sam Rinzel)

So that's no different compared to the time Dubas paid Carolina the Leafs 2020 1st round pick to take on Patrick Marleau, so they could afford to buy him out.

Except for the fact that it's very different.

Don't let facts get in the way, though.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Actually, Kyle Dubas did trade a 1st round pick to get rid of Mrzaek, even if it was falling back 13 draft picks to the 38th overall pick of the 2nd round.

Toronto Maple Leafs Acquire:​

2022 2nd round pick (CHI - #38 - Fraser Minten)

Chicago Blackhawks Acquire:​

Petr Mrázek · $3,800,000
2022 1st round pick (TOR - #25 - Sam Rinzel)

So that's no different compared to the time Dubas paid Carolina the Leafs 2020 1st round pick to take on Patrick Marleau, so they could afford to buy him out.

It's actually incredibly different, since in this trade, the Leafs got an early 2nd round pick that was only 13 draft slots back, in return.
Just as it wouldn't be accurate to say that Mrazek was traded for a 2nd round pick, without mentioning the 1st, it's inaccurate to say that we traded a 1st to get rid of Mrazek, without noting that we got a very similar draft pick back in return.

 

[LeafsNation75]

It's actually incredibly different, since in this trade, the Leafs got an early 2nd round pick that was only 13 draft slots back, in return.
Just as it wouldn't be accurate to say that Mrazek was traded for a 2nd round pick, without mentioning the 1st, it's inaccurate to say that we traded a 1st to get rid of Mrazek, without noting that we got a very similar draft pick back in return.

Yes, the Leafs did get an early 2nd round pick.

However, one can argue that since Ottawa was desperate to trade Murray and the fact he turned down a trade to Buffalo, which still had Ottawa retaining his salary and flipping the 16th pick for the 7th pick. It's fair to say that Kyle Dubas should have done more to get extra assets like a 1st round pick.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Yes, the Leafs did get an early 2nd round pick.

However, one can argue that since Ottawa was desperate to trade Murray and the fact he turned down a trade to Buffalo, which still had Ottawa retaining his salary and flipping the 16th pick for the 7th pick. It's fair to say that Kyle Dubas should have done more to get extra assets like a 1st round pick.

1. That's a different argument. The argument being discussed is how you shouldn't leave out a massive part of a trade (early 2nd round pick in return) when discussing it.
2. It's a very dangerous game to listen to speculation about what a potential trade that never happens "INCLUDES" and then start spreading claims that it's the entirety of the trade.
3. The difference between the 16th and 7th in that draft was also not nearly as big as people here like to pretend.
4. You would never get a 1st for taking on Murray. That's wildly unrealistic for taking on 2 years of about 700k cap above market value.

 

[LeafsNation75]

1. That's a different argument. The argument being discussed is how you shouldn't leave out a massive part of a trade (early 2nd round pick in return) when discussing it.
2. It's a very dangerous game to listen to speculation about what a potential trade that never happens "INCLUDES" and then start spreading claims that it's the entirety of the trade.
3. The difference between the 16th and 7th in that draft was also not nearly as big as people here like to pretend.
4. You would never get a 1st for taking on Murray. That's wildly unrealistic for taking on 2 years of about 700k cap above market value.

Since it was confirmed that Buffalo and Ottawa were going to swap 1st round picks if Murray accepted a trade to the Sabres. You don't think Dubas could have done a similar trade involving the 25th pick, if he had trade talks about getting Murray before the draft had started.

You can also say Dubas should have insisted Ottawa include a 1st round pick for Murray since they previously agreed to do that with Buffalo. They could have made it a conditional 1st round pick like top 10 protected in 2023 and if that condition was meet, Toronto would have got it outright in 2024 without any conditions.

 

[ToneDog]

1. That's a different argument. The argument being discussed is how you shouldn't leave out a massive part of a trade (early 2nd round pick in return) when discussing it.
2. It's a very dangerous game to listen to speculation about what a potential trade that never happens "INCLUDES" and then start spreading claims that it's the entirety of the trade.
3. The difference between the 16th and 7th in that draft was also not nearly as big as people here like to pretend.
4. You would never get a 1st for taking on Murray. That's wildly unrealistic for taking on 2 years of about 700k cap above market value.

They took 3/4 of 15m real dollars owed for the last 2 years of the contract off the Sens payroll. That is 11.25m real dollars. No idea where you came up with 700k over market value.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Since it was confirmed that Buffalo and Ottawa were going to swap 1st round picks if Murray accepted a trade to the Sabres. You don't think Dubas could have done a similar trade involving the 25th pick, if he had trade talks about getting Murray before the draft had started.

Even if the speculation of swapping picks was true, you don't know what else was involved in that trade. You don't know the exact retention that was involved. You don't know if other pieces or picks were involved going back to Ottawa.

And no, trading back to 25th is different than trading back to 16. It's all about where the prospect tiers land in any given year, and 2022 was rather weak in the 1st round, and had tier separations at 5 and around 20. So in a trade down from 7th to 16th, you may not get your first choice anymore, but you wouldn't be losing significant prospect quality. Going to 25 means you're dropping down a tier.

Murray was not a dead asset. He may not have held as much value as his cap hit, or even his cap hit after retention (which is why he cost picks to move), but he still held value as a player. The return for taking it on isn't bad. A lot of fans just got worked up over tweets that told half a story, or were spinning unrealistic fantasies for clicks.

No idea where you came up with 700k over market value.

The difference between the cap hit we were taking on, and Murray's actual market value. Murray probably could have gotten a 4m x 2 year contract in FA.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Even if the speculation of swapping picks was true, you don't know what else was involved in that trade. You don't know the exact retention that was involved. You don't know if other pieces or picks were involved going back to Ottawa.

And no, trading back to 25th is different than trading back to 16. It's all about where the prospect tiers land in any given year, and 2022 was rather weak in the 1st round, and had tier separations at 5 and around 20. So in a trade down from 7th to 16th, you may not get your first choice anymore, but you wouldn't be losing significant prospect quality. Going to 25 means you're dropping down a tier.

Murray was not a dead asset. He may not have held as much value as his cap hit, or even his cap hit after retention (which is why he cost picks to move), but he still held value as a player. The return for taking it on isn't bad. A lot of fans just got worked up over tweets that told half the story, or were spinning unrealistic fantasies for clicks.

It was 100% confirmed by Darren Dreger in that tweet I posted where Ottawa and Buffalo were going to swap 1st round picks, if Murray accepted a trade to the Sabres. I'm going to assume the retention would have been 25% since that's what Toronto and Ottawa agreed to.

 

[ToneDog]

Since it was confirmed that Buffalo and Ottawa were going to swap 1st round picks if Murray accepted a trade to the Sabres. You don't think Dubas could have done a similar trade involving the 25th pick, if he had trade talks about getting Murray before the draft had started.

You can also say Dubas should have insisted Ottawa include a 1st round pick for Murray since they previously agreed to do that with Buffalo. They could have made it a conditional 1st round pick like top 10 protected in 2023 and if that condition was meet, Toronto would have got it outright in 2024 without any conditions.

When I look at what Dorion gave up for Dubrincat who comes with a $9m QO and he most likely walks next year, I wonder how the hell was Kyle not able to get a better sweetener for Murray for eating $11.25m of the remaining $15m owed Murray.

• 2022-Jul-07 Traded from Chicago Blackhawks to Ottawa Senators for round 1 pick in the 2022 draft (Kevin Korchinski), round 2 pick in the 2022 draft (Paul Ludwinski) and round 3 pick in the 2024 draft

 

[Dekes For Days]

It was 100% confirmed by Darren Dreger in that tweet I posted where Ottawa and Buffalo were going to swap 1st round picks, if Murray accepted a trade to the Sabres. I'm going to assume the retention would have been 25% since that's what Toronto and Ottawa agreed to.

Darren Dreger saying something doesn't mean it's 100% confirmed for the record, but you also don't seem to be getting the point. A trade including something doesn't mean that that is the entirety of the trade, and nothing else is involved. You also can't just randomly assume what the retention would be.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Darren Dreger saying something doesn't mean it's 100% confirmed for the record, but you also don't seem to be getting the point. A trade including something doesn't mean that that is the entirety of the trade, and nothing else is involved. You also can't just randomly assume what the retention would be.

I know that Dreger isn't the most popular of insiders compared to Bob McKenzie, Pierre LeBrun, Chris Johnston, and Elliotte Friedman. However why would he risk his reputation and report how Buffalo and Ottawa were going to swap 1st round picks if that wasn't going to be true.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I know that Dreger isn't the most popular of insiders compared to Bob McKenzie, Pierre LeBrun, Chris Johnston, and Elliotte Friedman. However why would he risk his reputation and report how Buffalo and Ottawa were going to swap 1st round picks if that wasn't going to be true.

There's a big difference between not true and not the whole story.

 

[LeafsNation75]

There's a big difference between not true and not the whole story.

Here are two stories from TSN that goes into more detail about Murray vetoing the trade from Ottawa to Buffalo.

Ottawa Senators Matt Murray Buffalo Sabres | TSN

While the Ottawa Senators and Buffalo Sabres worked out a trade for Matt Murray, the goaltender will be staying put for now. Murray had the Sabres, who would have received an additional asset for acquiring him, on his 10-team no-trade list and declined to waive for the move.

www.tsn.ca

Buffalo Sabres Matt Murray Ottawa Senators | TSN

Sabres general manager Kevyn Adams is ready to move on after Ottawa Senators goaltender Matt Murray declined to waive his no-trade clause for a move to the Buffalo.

www.tsn.ca

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

So we got rid of an underachieving goaltender for a goalie running 9th in SV % and 10th in GAA. In doing so we saved $11.74 M in salary and acquired Minten (37 PTS in 28 GP), a 3rd, a 7th and surrendered only Rinzel (15 PTS in 25 GP) and future considerations.
What are we yammering about here?

 

[ToneDog]

So we got rid of an underachieving goaltender for a goalie running 9th in SV % and 10th in GAA. In doing so we saved $11.74 M in salary and acquired Minten (37 PTS in 28 GP), a 3rd, a 7th and surrendered only Rinzel (15 PTS in 25 GP) and future considerations.
What are we yammering about here?

How ? Mrazek was owed $8.6m and Murray $15m of which we took on 3/4 or $11.25m.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

How ? Mrazek was owed $8.6m and Murray $15m of which we took on 3/4 or $11.25m.

We avoided 8.6 and 3.14. All salary we are not paying. We are paying the reminder of 2 years on to date a top 10 goalie. All the while making out like bandits on the other acquisitions. If every misstep is addressed that well, sign me up. May have screwed up cap hit versus salary. Will have to check. On phone.

 

[ToneDog]

We avoided 8.6 and 3.14. All salary we are not paying. We are paying the reminder of 2 years on to date a top 10 goalie. All the while making out like bandits on the other acquisitions. If every misstep is addressed that well, sign me up. May have screwed up cap hit versus salary. Will have to check. On phone.

Not sure what the 3.14 is but Murray has been worth every penny so far. Being a two time SC champ has to give his teammates confidence as well.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Here are two stories from TSN that goes into more detail about Murray vetoing the trade from Ottawa to Buffalo.

Neither of those offer any additional details about the trade specifics.

 

[Menzinger]

When I look at what Dorion gave up for Dubrincat who comes with a $9m QO and he most likely walks next year, I wonder how the hell was Kyle not able to get a better sweetener for Murray for eating $11.25m of the remaining $15m owed Murray.

• 2022-Jul-07 Traded from Chicago Blackhawks to Ottawa Senators for round 1 pick in the 2022 draft (Kevin Korchinski), round 2 pick in the 2022 draft (Paul Ludwinski) and round 3 pick in the 2024 draft

Leafs had made the decision to 100% make a goalie change, while the Sens were interested in doing something similar, they could have kept Murray. And the Leafs opted to just get the deal done rather than risk waiting which likely resulted in them taking a slightly less than expected price.

At the end of the day the Leafs got paid an asset to take on their starting goalie who so far has been playing very well for the team.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Neither of those offer any additional details about the trade specifics.

The first one links Dregger's tweet with what the trade would have looked like, which you doubt was even true.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The first one links Dregger's tweet with what the trade would have looked like, which you doubt was even true.

The tweet was already posted. The articles don't add any additional details.
As I've said, it's not about whether the pick swap being part of the trade is true. It's about the fact that you don't know what else was involved in the trade.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

With the benefit of hindsight, considering that Kyle Dubas traded the Leafs 1st round pick in 2022 to Chicago for them taking on Petr Mrazek and 100% of his contract. Did anyone expect a similar return from Ottawa for agreeing to trade for Murray?

We received a 2nd back in the Mrazek trade, so we only dropped 13 spots. Plus Mrazek was only a 3.8 AAV and Murray was 6.25M. So yeah, I was kinda expecting more tbh.

 

[1specter]

Nobody should be upset with that game from Sammy, he was fantastic and only reason we were still in it. Unfortunately that meaningless PP goal against at the end will hurt his sv% and make his stat line look bad