Value of: Claude Giroux to Calgary

[StephenPeat]

You have a very high opinion of yourself. This is a thread about a team that wants to make a run, Giroux can help with that goal. It's that simple. But you're just hiding your weak arguments behind insults.

Actually I’m dressing up excellent arguments with irrefutable descriptions of your posts. You’re the one who tried to defend a comparison that is inarguably foolish. No insults, just truth. Giroux is not worth dramatically more than any other expiring UFA traded at the deadline any other year, no matter how much you cry about it.

Regardless of whether Giroux CAN help a team make a run, this is a thread about how much it will cost to acquire his services. Suggesting he’s going to get a return wholly unreasonable compared to other recent comparables serves no other purpose than to make those posters look out-of-touch. In this you have succeeded.

 

[mdm815]

Actually I’m dressing up excellent arguments with irrefutable descriptions of your posts. You’re the one who tried to defend a comparison that is inarguably foolish. No insults, just truth. Giroux is not worth dramatically more than any other expiring UFA traded at the deadline any other year, no matter how much you cry about it.

Regardless of whether Giroux CAN help a team make a run, this is a thread about how much it will cost to acquire his services. Suggesting he’s going to get a return wholly unreasonable compared to other recent comparables serves no other purpose than to make those posters look out-of-touch. In this you have succeeded.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

You have a very high opinion of yourself. This is a thread about a team that wants to make a run, Giroux can help with that goal. It's that simple. But you're just hiding your weak arguments behind insults.

He can help with that goal but people (and there are a bunch of Philly fans saying this) thinking they are getting Pelletier++ are nuts, Pelletier wouldn't even be available for Giroux at all. Rentals just dont merit that kind of return, even of Giroux's caliber.
In 2013 Calgary traded a 35 year old Iginla in the final year of his contract for 2 decent prospects performing (well in NCAA and a 1st. At the time of the trade Iggy had 9 goals and 22 points in 31 games. He then went to Pittsburgh and got 5 goals and 11 points in 13 games, then 4 goals 12 points in 15 playoff games.
By the trade deadline Giroux will be 34 so he will be 1 year younger than Iggy at the time he was traded. He is also performing a bit better than Iggy did at the time of the trade so I would say he warrants a bit better return but definitely not marginally. It's not like Pittsburgh didn't have extremely high valued prospects at the time of that trade either, they just drafted 8th and 26th OA and acquired Brian Doumolin

 

[StephenPeat]

^^As I said, “only truth.”

 

[Accelleratii]

I’m not sure what’s stupider, your evaluation of Mantha’s value which completely ignores the Salary Cap aspect that was Huge from Washington’s end AND the fact Mantha had term. Or your valuation of Giroux which is a fantastic argument for never huffing glue.

Well I appreciate you calling me stupid.

So I guess if an almost-perennial 40 pt player has term and a "good" cap hit, his value skyrockets? Whereas a player who consistently contributes top line minutes at center OR wing, has point per game output, plays effectively on both PP and PK, and wins most faceoffs he takes, is not worth a 1st round pick and a top prospect from a team on the cusp of winning?

You're telling me you'd rather trade those assets for a Mantha with term, than for a Giroux as a rental for a cup push? If that is so, we can simply agree to disagree, rather than throw stones at each other.

 

[StephenPeat]

Well I appreciate you calling me stupid.

So I guess if an almost-perennial 40 pt player has term and a "good" cap hit, his value skyrockets? Whereas a player who consistently contributes top line minutes at center OR wing, has point per game output, plays effectively on both PP and PK, and wins most faceoffs he takes, is not worth a 1st round pick and a top prospect from a team on the cusp of winning?

You're telling me you'd rather trade those assets for a Mantha with term, than for a Giroux as a rental for a cup push? If that is so, we can simply agree to disagree, rather than throw stones at each other.

I wouldn’t trade what you’re suggesting for Mantha NOR Giroux but I’d be far more likely to do so for the 26-yr old I can retain for four more seasons than the 33-year old who will most assuredly cost more and I couldn’t afford regardless.

Again not rocket science. If you need me to illustrate with stick figures I can. Or maybe you could stop being obtuse and come back to reality.

 

[Accelleratii]

I wouldn’t trade what you’re suggesting for Mantha NOR Giroux but I’d be far more likely to do so for the 26-yr old I can retain for four more seasons than the 33-year old who will most assuredly cost more and I couldn’t afford regardless.

Again not rocket science. If you need me to illustrate with stick figures I can. Or maybe you could stop being obtuse and come back to reality.

I really don't understand your angle. You're telling me your opinion and I'm telling you mine. Some folks agree with me and some agree with you. Yet, you're talking to me like what I am suggesting (teams giving up quality assets for a quality rental) is beyond comprehension, like rocket science, something I'm confident you don't understand since you're suggesting stick figures would somehow illustrate that trading for Mantha is better asset management than trading for Giroux. I'd like to see this illustration.

I understand what you are saying and I do not agree with you. This is what we call, subjectivity. I can get you a dictionary if you'd like.

But in our brief exchange it is evident you are a feeble, unintelligible person who projects their own shortcomings on others to uplift themselves just to get through the day. Sadly, people of that ilk seldom realize this about themselves, and the vicious cycle spins on until the end of their days.

Or you're just an arrogant, close minded, POS.

Either way, both types are hardly any fun.

I expect that illustration in your response to make me acutely aware of your superior argument, and bring me back down to reality.

 

[StephenPeat]

I really don't understand your angle. You're telling me your opinion and I'm telling you mine. Some folks agree with me and some agree with you. Yet, you're talking to me like what I am suggesting (teams giving up quality assets for a quality rental) is beyond comprehension, like rocket science, something I'm confident you don't understand since you're suggesting stick figures would somehow illustrate that trading for Mantha is better asset management than trading for Giroux. I'd like to see this illustration.

I understand what you are saying and I do not agree with you. This is what we call, subjectivity. I can get you a dictionary if you'd like.

But in our brief exchange it is evident you are a feeble, unintelligible person who projects their own shortcomings on others to uplift themselves just to get through the day. Sadly, people of that ilk seldom realize this about themselves, and the vicious cycle spins on until the end of their days.

Or you're just an arrogant, close minded, POS.

Either way, both types are hardly any fun.

I expect that illustration in your response to make me acutely aware of your superior argument, and bring me back down to reality.

Based on this thread, every other Giroux thread, the post-Salary Cap history of the NHL, and all available historical precedent no one agrees with you.

33-yr old RENTAL Giroux is not worth a 1st AND a Top/Elite-Prospect.

 

[StoneHands]

I don't think a 33 year old Giroux as a pending UFA gets both a Grade A and a 1st. Stone in a sign/trade got Brannstrom and a 2nd. If you dissagree, can you show a few examples were a pending UFA got both a Grade A and a 1st? I'm curious to see how often that happens

It's hard to find the perfect storm of a star player being traded at the deadline while also being a pending UFA. It's eve harder to find the exact same return someone else is referencing.

It's not as hard to find similar but different situations. Here are a few from the last 2 deadlines. Giroux is a much better player than these three so common sense is he's going to fetch a better return.

Nick Foligno is a 3rd line 30 point role player. He was traded as a pending UFA for a 1st and 4th rounder.
JG Pageau was a middle 6 forward with a creer high 43 points when he was traded as a pending UFA for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks.
Blake Coleman was a 3rd line with a career high 36 points when he was traded with 1 year left on his contract for a 1st and Nolan Foote who was a 1st round pick 6 months earlier.

 

[Accelleratii]

Based on this thread, every other Giroux thread, the post-Salary Cap history of the NHL, and all available historical precedent no one agrees with you.

33-yr old RENTAL Giroux is not worth a 1st AND a Top/Elite-Prospect.

You fail on two fronts here. Your claim is wrong and you did not give me that illustration, which was your idea in the first place.

 

[StephenPeat]

You fail on two fronts here. Your claim is wrong and you did not give me that illustration, which was your idea in the first place.

Find a single non-Flyers fan who agrees with you.

 

[Rich Nixon]

Giroux would be one of the most interesting players ever moved at the deadline, were he to be. Hall is perhaps the closest comparable, but Hall isn't nearly as useful. Giroux is literally an elite all-situations player: He can play all three forward positions, run a PP, carry a line at even strength, log PK minutes, and win more faceoffs than basically anyone else in the league.

Don't think age matters much for a rental unless you think the body really deteriorates extra hard between age 34 and age 34.25 or whatever. He's still one of the best hockey players on the planet, statwatchers and come-latelys be damned. On a team with decent coaching, and where he isn't the focal point of the offense, I think he'll absolutely go off. I'd bet serious money that he'd be a PPG playoff performer again if traded to a contender.

But, the Flyers are gonna go on a lukewarm run for the 8th seed so they won't trade him.

 

[blankall]

Why wouldn't i?

Giroux is already starting to exhibit inconsistent play. He's off to a good start but the last two regular seasons weren't that great. His last 3 playoff performances stunk.

And yes I think his return will be less than Iginla's. Iginla still had two 30 goal seasons in the tank, and was a power forward with much better intangibles. Iginla was still regularly punching face and had solid playoff performances after his trade.

What if you give up a top prospect for giroux and he gives a .43 playoff performance, which is good average over the last three playoffs and 7 seasons.

Giroux would be great, but guys like Pelletier and Valimaki are way off the table.

 

[Washed Up 29YearOld]

Either a late 1st and a B- prospect or 2nd and a B+ prospect sprinkled with a sweetener IMO

But this is Chuck Fletcher so this is not at all an official prediction.

 

[Habs Halifax]

It's hard to find the perfect storm of a star player being traded at the deadline while also being a pending UFA. It's eve harder to find the exact same return someone else is referencing.

It's not as hard to find similar but different situations. Here are a few from the last 2 deadlines. Giroux is a much better player than these three so common sense is he's going to fetch a better return.

Nick Foligno is a 3rd line 30 point role player. He was traded as a pending UFA for a 1st and 4th rounder.
JG Pageau was a middle 6 forward with a creer high 43 points when he was traded as a pending UFA for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks.
Blake Coleman was a 3rd line with a career high 36 points when he was traded with 1 year left on his contract for a 1st and Nolan Foote who was a 1st round pick 6 months earlier.

I can't recall any 33 year olds who were as good as Giroux and traded as a rental but I'm sure there are some if we want to spend the time to look.

 

[TheWolfOfBroadStreet]

Find a single non-Flyers fan who agrees with you.

I dont think you need to be a flyers fan to comprehend his point. As he mentioned before, its subjective and he disagrees with your point but understands it. I'll help you with a response though to end the argument:

"I disagree with your opinion as well but understand it"

Personally, I think this was a pretty good baseline a stonehands mentioned.

"Nick Foligno is a 3rd line 30 point role player. He was traded as a pending UFA for a 1st and 4th rounder.
JG Pageau was a middle 6 forward with a creer high 43 points when he was traded as a pending UFA for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks.
Blake Coleman was a 3rd line with a career high 36 points when he was traded with 1 year left on his contract for a 1st and Nolan Foote who was a 1st round pick 6 months earlier."

 

[Rich Nixon]

Giroux is already starting to exhibit inconsistent play. He's off to a good start but the last two regular seasons weren't that great. His last 3 playoff performances stunk.

And yes I think his return will be less than Iginla's. Iginla still had two 30 goal seasons in the tank, and was a power forward with much better intangibles. Iginla was still regularly punching face and had solid playoff performances after his trade.

What if you give up a top prospect for giroux and he gives a .43 playoff performance, which is good average over the last three playoffs and 7 seasons.

Giroux would be great, but guys like Pelletier and Valimaki are way off the table.

What kind of bullshit is this. In the season before he was traded, Iginla scored 67 points in 82 games. Last year, Giroux paced for 65 points over a full season. Huge, huge gap there. And hey, he's on pace for a 30 goal season this year, too!

"Much better intangibles"? How do you begin to pretend anyone can make that argument between two players? The word is literally "intangible." You might as well be saying he had MORE VIBES and a BALDER HEAD. He was a POWER FORWARD! Giroux is a TWO-WAY CENTER or perhaps a PLAYMAKER with strong defensive scores. Are we using EA NHL archetypes now? Which is the most valuable? ENF with a sick wrister?

Like, Iginla was a truly great hockey player and Giroux is a truly great hockey player and Giroux's at a pretty similar juncture in his career to what Iginla was when he was moved.

The market and team needs will dictate return more than anything--and that makes any comparison really hard. But yeah, in a trade I think you could do better than like the 28th pick and a guy who plays 16 NHL games in his career. I'd hope, at least.

 

[Accelleratii]

It's hard to find the perfect storm of a star player being traded at the deadline while also being a pending UFA. It's eve harder to find the exact same return someone else is referencing.

It's not as hard to find similar but different situations. Here are a few from the last 2 deadlines. Giroux is a much better player than these three so common sense is he's going to fetch a better return.

Nick Foligno is a 3rd line 30 point role player. He was traded as a pending UFA for a 1st and 4th rounder.
JG Pageau was a middle 6 forward with a creer high 43 points when he was traded as a pending UFA for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks.
Blake Coleman was a 3rd line with a career high 36 points when he was traded with 1 year left on his contract for a 1st and Nolan Foote who was a 1st round pick 6 months earlier.

Find a single non-Flyers fan who agrees with you.

Well, I don't think I need to. I have a fellow Flyers fan quoted above who provides some telling AND objective data worth considering, unless you're too obtuse to listen to outside information. He gives a few recent rentals and what they were acquired for. You can compare them to Giroux and draw your own conclusions. He suggests using common sense - I can explain what common sense is if you need me to.

Might I add, you talk about value regarding term and age...Giroux is 34 by season's end but he's still producing roughly point per game, which is on par for his career. You're ignoring that production, his intangibles/experience as a veteran and captain, which I am pretty sure a lot teams like to add for a Cup run. Further, health is another factor you're choosing to ignore. Mantha has played a full season never and eclipsed 70 games once. Giroux doesn't miss a lot of hockey games, in fact, he's practically a lock to play a full season. "Oh but he's old" yeah he's older but he's not banging around out there wearing himself down so I could argue he has a couple more productive seasons left. You're acting like his career was done yesterday.

Can't wait for your empty response.

 

[Sparky93]

Always a sad day when an aging franchise player, with a full NMC is finally moved. It doesn't matter what fans or management wants because Giroux holds all the cards. If he decides he wants to chase a cup, he probably gives a list of the 6 top contenders, with next to no capspace, and has a preferred 4 teams. Giroux will decide the spot he likes the best and whatever those teams are willing to offer, with little competition, is what the Flyers will receive, if he's moved.
For the record, as a Flames fan, I don't see Calgary being one of his preferred destinations. Good luck, and I hope the Flyers do better than we did with Iggy.

 

[StephenPeat]

It's hard to find the perfect storm of a star player being traded at the deadline while also being a pending UFA. It's eve harder to find the exact same return someone else is referencing.

It's not as hard to find similar but different situations. Here are a few from the last 2 deadlines. Giroux is a much better player than these three so common sense is he's going to fetch a better return.

Nick Foligno is a 3rd line 30 point role player. He was traded as a pending UFA for a 1st and 4th rounder.
JG Pageau was a middle 6 forward with a creer high 43 points when he was traded as a pending UFA for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks.
Blake Coleman was a 3rd line with a career high 36 points when he was traded with 1 year left on his contract for a 1st and Nolan Foote who was a 1st round pick 6 months earlier.

Basically the height of disingenuous.

I’ll take a shot at being close to as out-to-lunch;
Nick Foligno and First Rounder Stefan Noesen were traded from the Blue Jackets to the Maple Leafs for a 1st and two (2) 4ths. Will the Flyers be adding a 1st to Giroux to trade him in this “highly similar” circumstance?

A 1st AND a Top/Elite-Prospect is higher than essentially all these scenarios.

Foligno is probably the closest comp based on age and FA status and he returned basically a 1st which I think is just about spot-on.

Pageau was younger and much cheaper. The team that traded for him had every intention of signing him, which they did, to a contract less than 2/3 Giroux’s current Cap Hit.

Coleman, as you said, had term. He was also 4 years younger than Giroux is today with a history of much lower contracts (making him potentially easier to extend).

Your comparables are objectively dissimilar in significant ways. Face it; Giroux is older (in many cases much older) than the comps you suggest and is being traded as essentially a Pure Rental (he makes too much for a Playoff Team to sign long-term). Only the Foligno deal is similar and you should probably expect a similar return.

 

[StephenPeat]

Well, I don't think I need to. I have a fellow Flyers fan quoted above who provides some telling AND objective data worth considering, unless you're too obtuse to listen to outside information. He gives a few recent rentals and what they were acquired for. You can compare them to Giroux and draw your own conclusions. He suggests using common sense - I can explain what common sense is if you need me to.

Might I add, you talk about value regarding term and age...Giroux is 34 by season's end but he's still producing roughly point per game, which is on par for his career. You're ignoring that production, his intangibles/experience as a veteran and captain, which I am pretty sure a lot teams like to add for a Cup run. Further, health is another factor you're choosing to ignore. Mantha has played a full season never and eclipsed 70 games once. Giroux doesn't miss a lot of hockey games, in fact, he's practically a lock to play a full season. "Oh but he's old" yeah he's older but he's not banging around out there wearing himself down so I could argue he has a couple more productive seasons left. You're acting like his career was done yesterday.

Can't wait for your empty response.

So another Flyer fan pulls some poor Comps and you choose to use THAT as your justification. You need to prepare yourself for the eventual let-down of False Hope.

 

[Rich Nixon]

Basically the height of disingenuous.

I’ll take a shot at being close to as out-to-lunch;
Nick Foligno and First Rounder Stefan Noesen were traded from the Blue Jackets to the Maple Leafs for a 1st and two (2) 4ths. Will the Flyers be adding a 1st to Giroux to trade him in this “highly similar” circumstance?

A 1st AND a Top/Elite-Prospect is higher than essentially all these scenarios.

Foligno is probably the closest comp based on age and FA status and he returned basically a 1st which I think is just about spot-on.

Pageau was younger and much cheaper. The team that traded for him had every intention of signing him, which they did, to a contract less than 2/3 Giroux’s current Cap Hit.

Coleman, as you said, had term. He was also 4 years younger than Giroux is today with a history of much lower contracts (making him potentially easier to extend). It's a rental: You get that part, so why obsess over age? Do guys regularly die on their 12,5000th day on earth?

Your comparables are objectively dissimilar in significant ways. Face it; Giroux is older (in many cases much older) than the comps you suggest and is being traded as essentially a Pure Rental (he makes too much for a Playoff Team to sign long-term). Only the Foligno deal is similar and you should probably expect a similar return.

I'm not sure what your obsession is with OLDER in the case of a rental. Like, in the context of Pageau it makes sense because he was literally traded on an ELC so he cost next-to-nothing and was under team control, so he wasn't a rental at all—the RFA status was a big plus there. Coleman also wasn't a pure rental because he had another season, but Blake Coleman at any age is not on the same planet as Giroux is today or will still be in 3 months.

Giroux could be 147 years old, but if he was still incredibly durable and scoring 65+ points a year in the NHL while playing in all situations, then he'd still be a guy who scored 65+ points in the NHL and played all situations.

That Foligno trade was just stupid expensive. Dunno what your thinking was with Stefan Noesen, first rounder, in that other post. He was traded a full 9 years after he was drafted and had established himself as a fourth liner in the NHL, and that was a three-team deal. I think the Flyers could find a fourth liner somewhere if they had to deal one, but acting like he was a direct add on the Foligno deal and a major value element of it is entirely wrong.

I think the best you can do with all that is go "a bunch of significantly worse hockey players got decent returns, with a whole host of stipulations re: contract status." The comparables are all bad because there really aren't any since Iginla or maybe Hall.

 

[StoneHands]

Basically the height of disingenuous.

I’ll take a shot at being close to as out-to-lunch;
Nick Foligno and First Rounder Stefan Noesen were traded from the Blue Jackets to the Maple Leafs for a 1st and two (2) 4ths. Will the Flyers be adding a 1st to Giroux to trade him in this “highly similar” circumstance?

A 1st AND a Top/Elite-Prospect is higher than essentially all these scenarios.

Foligno is probably the closest comp based on age and FA status and he returned basically a 1st which I think is just about spot-on.

Pageau was younger and much cheaper. The team that traded for him had every intention of signing him, which they did, to a contract less than 2/3 Giroux’s current Cap Hit.

Coleman, as you said, had term. He was also 4 years younger than Giroux is today with a history of much lower contracts (making him potentially easier to extend).

Your comparables are objectively dissimilar in significant ways. Face it; Giroux is older (in many cases much older) than the comps you suggest and is being traded as essentially a Pure Rental (he makes too much for a Playoff Team to sign long-term). Only the Foligno deal is similar and you should probably expect a similar return.

I pretty clearly said that it's very hard to find trades at the deadlines including players with the same age, same contract status, same cap hit, same productivity, and same return. I'm also not sure why you put "highly similar" in quotes when the closest thing I said to that would be "similar but different situations". I used players being traded over the last two seasons who returned a 1st round pick and more. Sorry, I guess I could have gone back 10 years to find a closer comparison but then I'm sure you would have said trades from 10 years ago are irrelevant today. If you think Giroux's value is lower, I urge you to find of a player the same age, productivity, contract status, and cap hit that supports your claim. It's not as easy as you think. I tried to list players over the past two deadlines who returned a 1st while being at or near the end of their contracts. You can take over if there are much better examples out there.

You seem like the kind of guy that clicks the "compare this contract" link in CapFriendly and then sends and nasty email to them about why their comparisons suck.

 

[blankall]

What kind of bullshit is this. In the season before he was traded, Iginla scored 67 points in 82 games. Last year, Giroux paced for 65 points over a full season. Huge, huge gap there. And hey, he's on pace for a 30 goal season this year, too!

"Much better intangibles"? How do you begin to pretend anyone can make that argument between two players? The word is literally "intangible." You might as well be saying he had MORE VIBES and a BALDER HEAD. He was a POWER FORWARD! Giroux is a TWO-WAY CENTER or perhaps a PLAYMAKER with strong defensive scores. Are we using EA NHL archetypes now? Which is the most valuable? ENF with a sick wrister?

Like, Iginla was a truly great hockey player and Giroux is a truly great hockey player and Giroux's at a pretty similar juncture in his career to what Iginla was when he was moved.

The market and team needs will dictate return more than anything--and that makes any comparison really hard. But yeah, in a trade I think you could do better than like the 28th pick and a guy who plays 16 NHL games in his career. I'd hope, at least.

Iginla was always the driving force of the offence. The only down year he had was the year he was traded, where the team was a total tire fire and Iginla was injured.

Claude Giroux was 4th on the team in scoring in 2019/2020.

Iginla was a premiere power forward who would throw down. These are skills that are very valuable in the playoffs, and teams habitually overpay for a physical presence in the playoffs. Giroux's recent playoff record is horrible. Iginla also, once again, had 2 30 goal seasons left in the tank, in an era where guys scoring 30 goals were very hard to come by.

And once again, Iginla did not return a top prospect. He returned a late first and 2 very meh prospects. I think Iginla will represent the high mark. Anyone expecting Giroux to bring back more than Iginla did is kidding themselves.

 

[Rich Nixon]

Iginla was always the driving force of the offence. The only down year he had was the year he was traded, where the team was a total tire fire and Iginla was injured.

Claude Giroux was 4th on the team in scoring in 2019/2020.

Iginla was a premiere power forward who would throw down. These are skills that are very valuable in the playoffs, and teams habitually overpay for a physical presence in the playoffs. Giroux's recent playoff record is horrible. Iginla also, once again, had 2 30 goal seasons left in the tank, in an era where guys scoring 30 goals were very hard to come by.

And once again, Iginla did not return a top prospect. He returned a late first and 2 very meh prospects. I think Iginla will represent the high mark. Anyone expecting Giroux to bring back more than Iginla did is kidding themselves.

Like, what is the point of this shit? Giroux is also the core of the Flyers offense. He was 4th in team scoring once two years ago. OK, he was-first or second every other year of his f***ing career, last year and this one included—so an off year in PP assists two years ago, and suddenly a trade involving a scoring winger who occasionally fought is the high water mark value for an all-situations assist-boy center nearly a decade later? How does this work?

Like, what do you think you're arguing? I'm not saying there aren't interesting comparables, but you're not saying anything that relates to anything.

I don't think anyone knows what the market is at all. Maybe Draisatl breaks his hand and Panarin gets snuffed by the KGB and suddenly it's a first-rounder bidding war bonanza. Maybe no team needs a high-end forward at all and you're eating seconds. Maybe the Flyers win every game from now until April and this whole conversation is irrelevant. And then the NMC is a whole other wrinkle.

Trying to use arbitrary benchmarks for a player's value is silly. But he was 4th in team scoring two years ago, remember, so suddenly we're in February 2013! It's nonsensical stuff here, just throwing things at the wall.