Chloe Primarano becomes the first female to be selected in the WHL Bantam Draft

[MoneyManny]

Women can perfectly compete in high level sports, Caitlyn Jenner won a men olympics gold medal!

 

[Figgy44]

The problem is that Tennis has fewer traits along which such divergences appear. Tennis has a couple components, shot speed, forward movement, lateral movement. And even then the differences are startling. Not only that, Tennis has a much smaller player base than team sports do.

Some sports are more conducive for equality in competition and some are less conducive. Unfortunately, hockey is one of the least conducive sports for it. It's a contact sport with high requirements for explosive movement and low specialization. Contact creates strength requirements. Explosiveness creates another axis for traits to diverge. And low specialization means that each player has to do every part of the game, no player can specialize in a certain role and thus reduce the axes along which he/she must be competitive.

Soccer and Basketball are similar sports to hockey. And the same phenomena are observable in those sports. The best female athletes are equivalent to unremarkable teenage boys. With the Premier League, Ligue 1, La Liga, Bundesliga, Serie A, Eredivisie, with your logic you'd think some woman would at least be able to crack a lesser league in a progressive country like Allsvenskan or Tippeligaen. And with all the big pro basketball leagues there are in the world, by your logic there should be at least a couple female players in D1 college basketball. Neither is true to my knowledge.

There are two bad arguments. The first is the "exceptional individuals" argument. The second is the "access to training" argument. We'll address both. Canada's women's hockey team usually scrimmages Midget AAA teams. They are usually a mid-table team. The top scorer ever is Jennifer Wakefield, with 21 points in 30 games for a .7 PPG. Right behind her is Marie Philip Poulin with 14 points in 23 games, .6 PPG. Then there is Natalie Spooner with 18 points in 31 games, .58 PPG. The argument traditionally goes "well, the WNT as a whole is bad. But one generational talent could be so good that she could perform in the WHL, if only you took her away from her bad WNT teammates and placed her with good WHL teammates."

But the premise is false. The WNT is an average or slightly above average Midget AAA team. So if there was a woman capable of making the WHL out of Midget AAA, her teammates shouldn't be any hindrance to her scoring what WHL players score even before they make the WHL, much less what they would score by the time they actually make the WHL (usually the WHL season is a subsequent season to the Midget season so we can't factor growth and improvement). It's no fault of the teammates. It simply does not happen.

The problem with the argument about training conditions is as follows. Canada is a wealthy country, and a big hockey country. Most other countries are not hockey countries, not wealthy, or both. Canadian women's training opportunities are poor compared to Canadian men, but they are incomparably better than the training opportunities that male players from non-hockey countries receive. And yet, players come to play in the NHL and the CHL from a vast array of countries with few hockey training opportunities and little hockey infrastructure. Examples include Liam Kirk (GB), Jan Drozg (Slovenia), Alan Lysczarczyk (Poland), Igor Merezhko (Ukraine), Kasper Larsen (Denmark), Alessandro Segafredo (Italy), Ole Bjorvik Holm (Norway). Of course, we would see a higher rate of stars coming from these countries if they had the same access to training opportunities as Canadian boys. However, they still exist. There are still athletes who reach this level and even dominate. Canadian women receive significantly better training opportunities than these boys from non-hockey countries. Even if the rate of WHL athletes should be lower, it should not be zero if the difference was training opportunities.

And that's why I don't think your parallel is callous but I think it's inaccurate. O'Ree reached the NHL. Primerano has not reached the WHL.

Fair. But I do want to clarify that I wasnt saying I think Chloe will reach and be a mainstay of the WHL soon. I said she is a trail blazer and hopefully the first of many attempts. I was saying I hope she gets a game or two, but I'm in agreement that the odds are unlikely.

Separate to Chloe and in general I was saying that hopefully over a duration of time going forward (5-10 years), women might end up with a WHL mainstay or something like that. That's a hope that maybe 1-2 exceptional women who build upon the lessons of those before them can have a representative play perhaps half a season in a lower role. To me that doesn't seem like an unreasonablely high goal. I'm not expecting someone to dominate the WHL, I am saying that statistically, one could hope for a WHL tweener.

IIRC O'Ree played two games, then took like 3-4 years to get a season of 43 games. This is why I said I hope I'm not being callous, but if (and I agree with you that's a big if for Chloe specifically) Chloe could play 1-2 WHL games within the next couple of years and then take another 3-4 years before she plays half a season in the WHL, that's the goal I'm hoping can be achieved. IMO I'm not arguing for an influx of women into these leagues, but clue might be the first of many attempts going forward. I'm just saying I think if a woman dedicated get life to hockey with the same obsessive levels men do, statistically in 5-10 years, I think statistically, I'm optimistic one might arise who can "hang" with those at something like the WHL level, even if only as a tweener caliber player.

I don't completely disagree with your premise though. But perhaps training for women might not be identical to men to reach that level because of reasons you highlighted.


I guess I get where you're coming from relating to training not being the sole Gap though. I used to play squash with a coed group in university. I was relatively talentless, but from mid level competitors in the province, I reportedly had a competition calibre overhand power serve. I also could crank out that serve nonstop for almost an hour like I was pitching machine. My overall combined skills though, trash. A few guys and girls asked if I could help them train to track power shots. Guys often could consistently track and neuter my advantage within 2-3 hours of seeing those shots first hand. Girls who trained this way took 4-5 times longer to do so consistently even with lessened power. Even at around 12-20 hours of experience seeing my serve first hand, they would not be as consistent returning the shots as the guys. I never truly understood why the gap was so big even if I felt their courage to face those shots were greater.

A shitty anecdote perhaps, but if it touches on the premise you're explaining as to why men inherently are higher calibre competitors in general to women, ok fair. I can see why you have your stance about why women are unlikely break through into a league like the WHL. Respectfully though, I'll remain optimistic there will at least be a handful who are relatively close in around a decade.

 

[duul]

The very best female hockey players to ever play get dominated by 15 year old kids in no-hitting games.

It's a publicity stunt, good for the kid regardless but the charade has to stop at some point? The posters in here saying 'she just has to hit the gym, she's 4 inches taller than Nathan Gerbe'.

Lol. Gerbe could throw everyone on this website around with ease. Guy is jacked. It's like science & reality are unimportant in these discussions. Go girl girl!

 

[kabidjan18]

Fair. But I do want to clarify that I wasnt saying I think Chloe will reach and be a mainstay of the WHL soon. I said she is a trail blazer and hopefully the first of many attempts. I was saying I hope she gets a game or two, but I'm in agreement that the odds are unlikely.

Separate to Chloe and in general I was saying that hopefully over a duration of time going forward (5-10 years), women might end up with a WHL mainstay or something like that. That's a hope that maybe 1-2 exceptional women who build upon the lessons of those before them can have a representative play perhaps half a season in a lower role. To me that doesn't seem like an unreasonablely high goal. I'm not expecting someone to dominate the WHL, I am saying that statistically, one could hope for a WHL tweener.

IIRC O'Ree played two games, then took like 3-4 years to get a season of 43 games. This is why I said I hope I'm not being callous, but if (and I agree with you that's a big if for Chloe specifically) Chloe could play 1-2 WHL games within the next couple of years and then take another 3-4 years before she plays half a season in the WHL, that's the goal I'm hoping can be achieved. IMO I'm not arguing for an influx of women into these leagues, but clue might be the first of many attempts going forward. I'm just saying I think if a woman dedicated get life to hockey with the same obsessive levels men do, statistically in 5-10 years, I think statistically, I'm optimistic one might arise who can "hang" with those at something like the WHL level, even if only as a tweener caliber player.

I don't completely disagree with your premise though. But perhaps training for women might not be identical to men to reach that level because of reasons you highlighted.


I guess I get where you're coming from relating to training not being the sole Gap though. I used to play squash with a coed group in university. I was relatively talentless, but from mid level competitors in the province, I reportedly had a competition calibre overhand power serve. I also could crank out that serve nonstop for almost an hour like I was pitching machine. My overall combined skills though, trash. A few guys and girls asked if I could help them train to track power shots. Guys often could consistently track and neuter my advantage within 2-3 hours of seeing those shots first hand. Girls who trained this way took 4-5 times longer to do so consistently even with lessened power. Even at around 12-20 hours of experience seeing my serve first hand, they would not be as consistent returning the shots as the guys. I never truly understood why the gap was so big even if I felt their courage to face those shots were greater.

A shitty anecdote perhaps, but if it touches on the premise you're explaining as to why men inherently are higher calibre competitors in general to women, ok fair. I can see why you have your stance about why women are unlikely break through into a league like the WHL. Respectfully though, I'll remain optimistic there will at least be a handful who are relatively close in around a decade.

I don't like the way this in bold is framed, that they weren't dedicated enough. I think they are just as dedicated as the males. Particularly, when we're talking about the WHL, which is a junior league, people up until the age of 18 (when a player might enter the WHL) are typically under the supervision of an adult, lack financial independence, and legally required to do things like go to school, and aren't holding jobs, etc. The have the same level of time and passion and dedication. It's not for a lack of trying.

Optimism is fine. But I think we have been trying to loosely base it on some statistical analysis, that's not realistic because there is no actual statistical evidence to this theory. We're kinda tossing numbers around right now like 10%, 25%, but we don't really know. We also use the "exceptional athlete" term in a very hand-wavy way, because there's a reasonable range for an exceptional athlete. Bolt's human speed record is 27 mph. We might think an "exceptional athlete" could run 28 or 29 mph, but 40 mph would be unrealistic, at least in the foreseeable future.

Yeah, I think most of us guys who are unexceptional athletes have stories like that. I do too. If you're around coed athletics a lot then you've seen the differences, you know them. I think it'd be a great thing if a woman could play in XYZ, but right now, it hasn't obviously been the case.

 

[LuLover96]

The very best female hockey players to ever play get dominated by 15 year old kids in no-hitting games.

It's a publicity stunt, good for the kid regardless but the charade has to stop at some point? The posters in here saying 'she just has to hit the gym, she's 4 inches taller than Nathan Gerbe'.

Lol. Gerbe could throw everyone on this website around with ease. Guy is jacked. It's like science & reality are unimportant in these discussions. Go girl girl!

You see, you talk like this but I have to ask. Have you actually seen her play? There's so much nuance to her style that goes unnoticed in highlight packages that you need to really watch to understand. While she does have an abundance of skill, I think she has a lot of potential as a stay-at-home defender, akin to a left-handed Chris Tanev. She does need to get faster, she's not really slow but she didn't stand out with her speed like one would hope, but she already has edgework far beyond her years.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, all else being equal, she has no less of a chance to get into games as any other 13th rounder.

 

[PlayersLtd]

You see, you talk like this but I have to ask. Have you actually seen her play? There's so much nuance to her style that goes unnoticed in highlight packages that you need to really watch to understand. While she does have an abundance of skill, I think she has a lot of potential as a stay-at-home defender, akin to a left-handed Chris Tanev. She does need to get faster, she's not really slow but she didn't stand out with her speed like one would hope, but she already has edgework far beyond her years.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, all else being equal, she has no less of a chance to get into games as any other 13th rounder.

I appreciate looking deeper at her game but the poster you replied to isn't wrong. The best women in the world play non-contact against prep school teams and midget aaa. non contact. She would need to emerge as one of the best women in the world to play in a contact league against far superior competition than the national team plays against. The difference between major junior and aaa is like a Porsche vs a Toyota.

And if it's her foot speed that is lacking, I'm sorry but that's probably the most important asset for a women to have if she is going to make it. Actually, not probably.... Skating is 100% the skill that a barrier shattering woman is going to have in spades.

It's all possible, no question, but it will take a phenom.

 

[scallionjj11]

The very best female hockey players to ever play get dominated by 15 year old kids in no-hitting games.

It's a publicity stunt, good for the kid regardless but the charade has to stop at some point? The posters in here saying 'she just has to hit the gym, she's 4 inches taller than Nathan Gerbe'.

Lol. Gerbe could throw everyone on this website around with ease. Guy is jacked. It's like science & reality are unimportant in these discussions. Go girl girl!

It's sad but I do agree with most of this post. Feels more like a publicity stunt but who knows, maybe she will be the first ever female to make it? anything can happened.

 

[oooooooooohCanada]

It's sad but I do agree with most of this post. Feels more like a publicity stunt but who knows, maybe she will be the first ever female to make it? anything can happened.

I wouldn't say its a publicity stunt, but they definitely do know she won't play for them, or at least play any meaningful role. From everything I've read she was one of the best defensemen on her team. Based off that she should be drafted, but when projecting her down the line it's basically not possible for her to make an impact at the WHL level. You can draft someone based on merit to forward the cause without it being a publicity stunt.

 

[KaraLupin]

I would think that the circumstances for this to happen would be off pure skill, she would have to be the best player in her league, not just one of the best D on her team..

It's not about women's rights, it's about skill. If McDavid was as nutty as he is and was a girl, she would still be drafted 1st overall in NHL, for her skill.

It does nothing for a girl who "obviously" (based off what I've read I'm not writing her off because she's a female) won't play to make a draft. It doesn't make me appreciate women more, or put them on equal playing field in terms of sports. I already appreciate and hold them equal in the sports world.

This move looks fake and phony, and meant to create buzz and appear to for "revolutionary", but just ends up having the exact opposite effect. I would actually say that fans should pressure the team to play her in at least one game when the time comes, regardless of if she deserves it skill wise, if you are going to go this route.

 

[rangersfansince08]

Theres a pretty significant overlap in physicals for both sex, this player is the same size as a guy that literally dominated the NHL league this year, like men need to chill.

There really isn't.

 

[BondraTime]

There really isn't.

It is astonishing anyone would argue otherwise

 

[Patrik Barkov]

In the NHL, we have something like 650-700 active players?
In the AHL, we have something like 450-500 active players?
In the SHL, we have something like 450-500 active players?
In the KHL, we have something like 450-500 active players?
In the WHL, we have something like 550-600 active players?

Is there seriously a group think considering there's no damn way that of around 2,500 - 3,500 active players in the top 8 male leagues in the world, that a woman in general cannot put together a summation of traits to be considered competitive in the bottom pairings/bottom 6 forwards of the 5-8th ranked leagues? Give them equal access to training/potential reward and I think in about 5-10 years we start seeing some. Genetically speaking, I statistically I really do not believe that if all other facets other than genetics are equal, males can produce 3,000+ hockey players with summation of traits that are superior to the absolute best 5 women hockey players in the world.

Yes, we have examples where the 200th ranked male of certain sports handily defeat the top 5 ranked women of the same sport. My argument is that while that's likely valid, I really cannot see this continue if you increase the sample towards the top 1000, 2000 or 3000th top player.

I'm pretty sure there isn't a single sport in the world where a 15 year old boy wouldn't dominate the womens competiton. Once boys hit puberty it's over.

Anyone who reaches the top of their craft has my utmost respect as I know how much sacrifice and will power that takes. Most people can't even fathom how much work these people put in. Men and women.

I dislike the modern trend where facts are just thrown out the window and in order to respect female athletes you have to compare them to male counterparts for some reason. I believe the only way to truly grow womens team sports is to accept them as completely different entities.

If Ms. Primarano goes on to prove me completely wrong and becomes a useful WHL player I'll be nothing but amazed and happy for her. I'm sure she will have a great career eitherway.

 

[rangersfansince08]

It is astonishing anyone would argue otherwise

Politics warps people's minds and makes them say stupid things.

 

[abo9]

I would think that the circumstances for this to happen would be off pure skill, she would have to be the best player in her league, not just one of the best D on her team..

It's not about women's rights, it's about skill. If McDavid was as nutty as he is and was a girl, she would still be drafted 1st overall in NHL, for her skill.

It does nothing for a girl who "obviously" (based off what I've read I'm not writing her off because she's a female) won't play to make a draft. It doesn't make me appreciate women more, or put them on equal playing field in terms of sports. I already appreciate and hold them equal in the sports world.

This move looks fake and phony, and meant to create buzz and appear to for "revolutionary", but just ends up having the exact opposite effect. I would actually say that fans should pressure the team to play her in at least one game when the time comes, regardless of if she deserves it skill wise, if you are going to go this route.

Bolded is completely ridiculous. Should they play every players they draft then?

She was picked in the THIRTEENTH round. Some teams did not even pick starting at pick 10.

She obviously doesn't have much chance to make it even in the WHL, but so do the other players selected from round 10 onwards...

Her production is in line with those picks. Her size is not completely ridiculous either compare to some of the guys picked (there were quite a few picks of player less than 5'6 and less than 138 lbs).

If she can't make it she can't. She's a flyer as a 13th pick... like those other players picked around her, That's all

 

[tfwnogf]

It's all fun and games until she gets obliterated by a Pronger sized kid finishing his check

 

[TheGreenTBer]

The very best female hockey players to ever play get dominated by 15 year old kids in no-hitting games.

It's a publicity stunt, good for the kid regardless but the charade has to stop at some point? The posters in here saying 'she just has to hit the gym, she's 4 inches taller than Nathan Gerbe'.

Lol. Gerbe could throw everyone on this website around with ease. Guy is jacked. It's like science & reality are unimportant in these discussions. Go girl girl!

Yeah Gerbe might be short but he's made of freaking iron, especially in the legs.

 

[beowulf]

At 5'8" she is already taller than Habs second rounder this year dman Lane Hutson.

 

[Silky Johnson]

Theres a pretty significant overlap in physicals for both sex, this player is the same size as a guy that literally dominated the NHL league this year, like men need to chill.

How much overlap has there historically been in major junior hockey?

Also, what percentile in physical attributes do you thing most major junior players are? So you think this could have anything to do with the lack of historical overlap?

 

[beowulf]

It's all fun and games until she gets obliterated by a Pronger sized kid finishing his check

Who can obliterate all sizes of male players...

 

[Asinine]

At 5'8" she is already taller than Habs second rounder this year dman Lane Hutson.

Cool. If Chloe Primarino and Lane Hutson fought 100 times, Lane Hutson would win 100 times.

 

[beowulf]

Cool. If Chloe Primarino and Lane Hutson fought 100 times, Lane Hutson would win 100 times.

yA ok....

 

[abo9]

At 5'8" she is already taller than Habs second rounder this year dman Lane Hutson.

Interesting. Is Eliteprospects or WHL bantam draft more accurate?

Bantam draft has her as 5'6 and 138 lbs.
Eliteprospects 5'8 173 lbs which is.... a huge growth/weight gain? difference?

Edited because... more concise

 

[Patrik Barkov]

yA ok....

Well there's a slight 30 pound difference for starters...

 

[Asinine]

This guy definitely got his ass kicked a few times by women.

Its okay man, you can even cry if you feel like it.

I think you're still waiting to get your ass kicked by reality is what's going on here.

 

[beowulf]

Interesting. Is Eliteprospects or WHL bantam draft more accurate?

Bantam draft has her as 5'6 and 138 lbs.
Eliteprospects 5'8 173 lbs which is.... a huge growth/weight gain?

Not sure, it is funny how so many of these sites have different heights and weights for same player. Wikipedia has her at 5'8" also but anyone can update that.

She seems to be pretty good, in the top 4 of her team all year and praise from Richard Matvichuk, himself a former NHL dman. This article has her at 5'7"

Primerano, who’s a 5-foot-7, 138 pound, left handed shooting blueliner, had two goals and 17 assists in 30 games with BWC this past season. She had nine power-play assists

Former NHLer praises the play of Vancouver Giants draft pick Chloe Primerano

"(Chloe Primerano) played in our top four all season long and there wasn’t one situation where I couldn’t put her out on the ice."

theprovince.com