Value of: Chiarot to Calgary for Pelletier

[Boom Boom Apathy]

He is 27 turning 28 this year, Both Hanifin and Andersson turned 25 in the last couple months so it's their age 24/25 year

I should have clarified about the national recognition. Last 2 years he was considered the #2 to Dougie though even if he could count as a #1 on some teams. Before that there was Faulk as the #1

Calgary fans have known Hanifin and Andersson would be good since age ~22/23 but they are only now starting to get recognition around the league. Kylington's success was a delightful surprise

I'm going to disagree with your assessment on Slavin, even though I agree with you on Hanifin/Andersson.

1) The year before Dougie Arrived (when Jaccob was 23) Slavin led all Carolina defenders in 5v5 TOI/GP. It was not Faulk. Faulk got PP time, but Slavin was the #1, not Faulk. Slavin and Pesce were the top pairing and viewed by many as the top shut-down pairing in the league. Faulk was mainly paired with Haydn Fleury on the 2nd pairing.

2) The year Dougie arrived, he started on the 3rd pairing with TVR early in the season. Slavin again led all defensemen in 5v5 TOI/GP. Faulk was 3rd and Dougie was 4th. Slavin was 100% viewed as a #1 D by Canes fans, and many others. He was 24 at the time.

3) He was only considered #2 by Dougie by people who only view offense as the primary metric. They were two different players where Slavin's defense allowed Dougie to be more aggressive offensively. Dougie even commented on this. You won't find a Canes fan, even going back a year or two, that would choose Dougie over Slavin. Not one. Every single one of us viewed Slavin as the #1, or at least equal regardless of what people that rarely watch Carolina thought. I remember Devil's fans claiming "Dougie Carried Slavin" because of some stats that ignored all context (when Dougie was away from Slavin, he got easy matchups with ozone starts, yet when Slavin was away from Dougie, he got difficult match-ups with Pesce), but no Canes fans, nor many other fans, agreed.

I get what you are saying in terms of Andersson and Hanifin, I just disagree with your assessment on Slavin. He was viewed by many as a #1D when he was 23-24 years old. Maybe some nationally didn't see that, but we Canes fans certainly did, as did a number of others that watched him more.

Anyhow, I'll stop after this as it's off topic. I agree with your overall point. Calgary is a really good team with few holes and IMO, the team to come out of the west. Of course, that can change with injuries and deadline moves, but Sutter has them playing extremely well and Markstrom can be a difference maker. I don't see Chariot as a big need for them. Maybe he can help if he comes cheap, but don't see the need to give up much for a player like that given the Flames make-up.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

I'm going to disagree with your assessment on Slavin, even though I agree with you on Hanifin/Andersson.

1) The year before Dougie Arrived (when Jaccob was 23) Slavin led all Carolina defenders in 5v5 TOI/GP. It was not Faulk. Faulk got PP time, but Slavin was the #1, not Faulk. Slavin and Pesce were the top pairing and viewed by many as the top shut-down pairing in the league. Faulk was mainly paired with Haydn Fleury on the 2nd pairing.

2) The year Dougie arrived, he started on the 3rd pairing with TVR early in the season. Slavin again led all defensemen in 5v5 TOI/GP. Faulk was 3rd and Dougie was 4th. Slavin was 100% viewed as a #1 D by Canes fans, and many others. He was 24 at the time.

3) He was only considered #2 by Dougie by people who only view offense as the primary metric. They were two different players where Slavin's defense allowed Dougie to be more aggressive offensively. Dougie even commented on this. You won't find a Canes fan, even going back a year or two, that would choose Dougie over Slavin. Not one. Every single one of us viewed Slavin as the #1, or at least equal regardless of what people that rarely watch Carolina thought. I remember Devil's fans claiming "Dougie Carried Slavin" because of some stats that ignored all context (when Dougie was away from Slavin, he got easy matchups with ozone starts, yet when Slavin was away from Dougie, he got difficult match-ups with Pesce), but no Canes fans, nor many other fans, agreed.

I get what you are saying in terms of Andersson and Hanifin, I just disagree with your assessment on Slavin. He was viewed by many as a #1D when he was 23-24 years old. Maybe some nationally didn't see that, but we Canes fans certainly did, as did a number of others that watched him more.

Anyhow, I'll stop after this as it's off topic. I agree with your overall point. Calgary is a really good team with few holes and IMO, the team to come out of the west. Of course, that can change with injuries and deadline moves, but Sutter has them playing extremely well and Markstrom can be a difference maker. I don't see Chariot as a big need for them. Maybe he can help if he comes cheap, but don't see the need to give up much for a player like that given the Flames make-up.

I'm not arguing Canes fan's opinions. Nor do I disagree that Slavin was (and still is) an excellent shutdown guy at those ages. Think of it this way. Hampus Lindholm and Colton Parayko are 2 of the best shutdown guys in the entire league yet they are never considered #1's around the league.

Right now Lewis has been moved up to the middle 6 so that they can run a line of Lucic - Monahan - Dube (which has been decent this year), that is the only real questionable choice in the lineup right now. Pelletier would very likely replace him on that Backlund line next year and considering his strong 2-way game he would probably fit like a glove with Backs and Coleman for an elite 3rd line

 

[Baksfamous112]

Man some people here read way to much into every word and syllable of an article. It seems pretty clear to me;

Calgary wants Chiarot. Montreal wants Pelletier back but Calgary isn’t ready to do that (yet?).

Looks pretty straight forward to me. To me, Manson set the market for Chiarot. A prospect that has a first round pick value + 2nd round pick or a first round pick + a prospect that has 2nd round pick value.

I wonder where both teams has Pelletier ranked. Most likely as a first (even more than that?) round pick value. Either way, can’t wait to see the return on Chiarot, whether it’s from Calgary or somewhere else

 

[Colezuki]

Yeah I'll take Chiarot on Calgary, you want a 4th for him, retain 50% and I'll up it to a 3rd. I would trade something like that for him, I'm guessing my GM is probably in a similar boat as he would be a decent guy to fill in for an injury.

Your hockey evaluation skills are terrible

 

[Mrfenn92]

Calgary says no to the op offer and “fan sources”

 

[Rubi]

I don't understand the reasoning behind this trade.

The Flames have a solid d-corp of
Hanifin-Andersson
Kylington-Tanev
Zadorov-Gudbranson

This defense has the 2nd best GA in the league as is.

Who would Chiarot replace? And would the cost be worth it.

 

[BKarchitect]

Pelletier is dominating the AHL in his 20 year-old season after dominating that Q and having a great WJC as a 19 year-old after being a first round pick.

He’s worth a lot more than a run of the mill late first round pick. A lot more.

The Habs can ask about him and I’m sure they have. So there’s your “report”. Anything outside of that is pure conjecture including these sneaky little lines Habs fans use to keep their hopes up for this kind of return like “well, the Flames may not be ready yet to do this but maybe they will eventually”. It’s far more likely the Flames said “yeah, hard pass and Pelletier isn’t available, thanks for asking”.

I mean, I’m sure the Habs asked about Pelletier with Toffoli. You could even make a headline like “Habs interested in Pelletier, willing to part with Byron” and claim it’s not “untrue” yet we all know how intellectually dishonest it is. There’s no evidence at all that the Flames are willing to part with one of their crown jewel prospects for a rental defenseman like Chiarot.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Man some people here read way to much into every word and syllable of an article. It seems pretty clear to me;

Calgary wants Chiarot. Montreal wants Pelletier back but Calgary isn’t ready to do that (yet?).

Looks pretty straight forward to me. To me, Manson set the market for Chiarot. A prospect that has a first round pick value + 2nd round pick or a first round pick + a prospect that has 2nd round pick value.

I wonder where both teams has Pelletier ranked. Most likely as a first (even more than that?) round pick value. Either way, can’t wait to see the return on Chiarot, whether it’s from Calgary or somewhere else

Drew Helleson is in his D+5 year and looks decent enough to make the NHL at some point. He did not make any of the recent top 100 prospect lists. Pelletier recently ranked ~40th and has since dominated the AHL as a rookie. He is pretty much a lock for the NHL and very likely a top 6 talent.

Yan Kuznetzov is more on the level of Helleson

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Your hockey evaluation skills are terrible

How so? My valuation is about as accurate as thinking Chairot returns Pelletier.

He's not a need so why overpay for someone that is at best a wash for Zadorov on the 3rd pair. And that "at best" is even a reach. I'm not saying he won't get a better return, just won't be from the Flames.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Lol that's not a rumor. It's Habs fans wish list.

And a delusional one at that.

You and the 5 posters who liked your post are just wrong. Habs fans would like that return but we are not the ones spinning those rumors. You need a reality check and to push aside your Habs hate. Most of these high price tags has been reported by reputable members of the media. Habs fans might be falling into that trap which would be fair but you should put more of your hate or dislike towards the reporters IMO.

What does Chiarot actually return? Not sure and Pelletier might be too high. I can certainly see that side from the Flames. I do value what Pelletier is doing in his 1st pro season in the AHL but didn't Dube do that as well? 39 pts with 15 goals in his age 20 season like Pelletier? Not saying Pelletier is going to disappoint and not be a top 6F in the NHL but we have seen this over and over again before. Is Pelletier the exception where he does become a top 6F? Maybe but I'm thinking the Flames have it pegged that way for sure. Possible yes cause he's on a good development track but this kid is 5'-10" and 181 lbs. He's got a fair bit of maturing to go through yet. I doubt you trade him so I agree there so good luck! sincerely

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I'm not arguing Canes fan's opinions. Nor do I disagree that Slavin was (and still is) an excellent shutdown guy at those ages. Think of it this way. Hampus Lindholm and Colton Parayko are 2 of the best shutdown guys in the entire league yet they are never considered #1's around the league.

Right now Lewis has been moved up to the middle 6 so that they can run a line of Lucic - Monahan - Dube (which has been decent this year), that is the only real questionable choice in the lineup right now. Pelletier would very likely replace him on that Backlund line next year and considering his strong 2-way game he would probably fit like a glove with Backs and Coleman for an elite 3rd line

I said I'd stop so we'll just disagree on our assessment of Slavin and leave it at that since it doesn't really matter in the long run.

Question on Monahan. What's caused his precipitous drop-off? I had thought I read he had a hand injury previously, is that still affecting him or was he just propped up by playing with Gaudreau?

 

[Baksfamous112]

Drew Helleson is in his D+5 year and looks decent enough to make the NHL at some point. He did not make any of the recent top 100 prospect lists. Pelletier recently ranked ~40th and has since dominated the AHL as a rookie. He is pretty much a lock for the NHL and very likely a top 6 talent.

Yan Kuznetzov is more on the level of Helleson

Helleson is from the same draft (even younger) than Pelletier. He’s 100% a top 100 prospect. At least get your fact straight

 

[Habs Halifax]

How so? My valuation is about as accurate as thinking Chairot returns Pelletier.

He's not a need so why overpay for someone that is at best a wash for Zadorov on the 3rd pair. And that "at best" is even a reach. I'm not saying he won't get a better return, just won't be from the Flames.

Do you think the reports of Chiarot almost being part of the Toffoli trade were true or not? I'm pretty sure the Flames management would love to add Chiarot if they can figure out a trade that works for the Habs.

Where would he play? I do think that is a good question cause I can see other teams who would need Chiarot more.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Do you think the reports of Chiarot almost being part of the Toffoli trade were true or not? I'm pretty sure the Flames management would love to add Chiarot if they can figure out a trade that works for the Habs.

Where would he play? I do think that is a good question cause I can see other teams who would need Chiarot more.

I think they were true, I do not think there is any chance he returns anyone remotely close to Pelletier's value. Ask yourself this: Do you think Zadorov could return Caufield? If your answer is no then you should understand why this whole thread is pointless

 

[CDN24]

What if Mtl plans to clear cap space through other deals, guys like Hoffman. Would Chiarot for Pelletier and Lucic make sense for either team. Lucic has 1 yr left after this one

 

[Djp]

A developed prospect 1st round pick like Pelletier you don’t give up fir a rental. those players are worth more than a 1st round pick.

they didn’t give him up footprints Toffoli they aren’t giving him up for Chiarot.

 

[Stewie Griffin]

I think they were true, I do not think there is any chance he returns anyone remotely close to Pelletier's value. Ask yourself this: Do you think Zadorov could return Caufield? If your answer is no then you should understand why this whole thread is pointless

Obviously Zadorov wouldn't return Caufield. Caufield has been/is a better prospect than Pelletier though, and Chiarot has had a better rep then Zadorov.

With that being said, I don't see in any world how Chiarot would return a prospect like Pelletier, especially now that the first defenseman (and a right handed one at that) has been traded. A Chiarot trade should look very similar to the Manson one.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I think they were true, I do not think there is any chance he returns anyone remotely close to Pelletier's value. Ask yourself this: Do you think Zadorov could return Caufield? If your answer is no then you should understand why this whole thread is pointless

Chiarot is not Zadorov and Pelletier is not Caufield. But I do see where you are coming from. I do find Pelletier interesting cause I do value when a prospect turns pro and produces well right out of the gate. However, like I said, Dube did that too. Pelletier is not Dube so we will see where he is in a few years. The point is most prospects don't turn into who we think they will. Pelletier could be the exception yes. With is age 20 production in his first pro season, I would have him as a grade A prospect today

My value on Chiarot is two 2nd's. I do feel the Habs get that for a return (something close to that). But my high price is two 2nd's and a grade B/B+ prospect. So yeah, that's not Pelletier and I respect the Flames for not wanting to trade him.

 

[Treb]

Drew Helleson is in his D+5 year and looks decent enough to make the NHL at some point. He did not make any of the recent top 100 prospect lists. Pelletier recently ranked ~40th and has since dominated the AHL as a rookie. He is pretty much a lock for the NHL and very likely a top 6 talent.

Yan Kuznetzov is more on the level of Helleson

Huh.... Helleson was drafted in 2019, the same year as Pelletier. They are both in their D+3.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Helleson is from the same draft (even younger) than Pelletier. He’s 100% a top 100 prospect. At least get your fact straight

Ah my mistake on Hellison's draft year, I clicked on the wrong prospect and scrolled down to the bottom too fast (clicked Drew Hunter). As for Hellison's caliber as a prospect, no he is not top 100 on any recent lists. Not saying he's a bad prospect because he's definitely solid but he is not remotely in the same league as Pelletier
nhl midseason top 100 prospects ranking
Drive4Five's top 100 for 21/21

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Chiarot is not Zadorov and Pelletier is not Caufield. But I do see where you are coming from. I do find Pelletier interesting cause I do value when a prospect turns pro and produces well right out of the gate. However, like I said, Dube did that too. Pelletier is not Dube so we will see where he is in a few years.

My value on Chiarot is two 2nd's. I do feel the Habs get that for a return (something close to that). But my high price is two 2nd's and a grade B/B+ prospect. So yeah, that's not Pelletier and I respect the Flames for not wanting to trade him.

You are right partially right here, Zadorov is better than Chairot but Pelletier (even the OP's article says so) is a similar caliber prospect to Caufield

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Obviously Zadorov wouldn't return Caufield. Caufield has been/is a better prospect than Pelletier though, and Chiarot has had a better rep then Zadorov.

With that being said, I don't see in any world how Chiarot would return a prospect like Pelletier, especially now that the first defenseman (and a right handed one at that) has been traded. A Chiarot trade should look very similar to the Manson one.

How so? How has Caufield been better than Pelletier? Both played in the AHL this year and both were roughly a point per game as rookies, just because Pelletier hasn't been called up to his contending NHL affiliate team and Caufield has to his tanking NHL affiliate doesn't make him better.

Chairot's rep is a big guy that is a 3rd pair guy that can hit really hard and move up the depth chart if he needs to, how is that different from Zadorov?

 

[Habs Halifax]

You are right partially right here, Zadorov is better than Chairot but Pelletier (even the OP's article says so) is a similar caliber prospect to Caufield

I don't think Zadorov is better than Chiarot. It's close IMO but Chiarot's usage is higher. 20-23 min a game and has played to 25 min a game in some range of games. Over the last few seasons, the usage numbers are there and Chiarot has proven his worth in D zone usage and min eater for top 4. Neither the Avs coach or the Flames coach has trusted Zadorov in a 20-23 min role.

Chiarot was a big piece for the Habs in series wins against the Pens, Leafs, Jets, Knights. If you had the chance to talk to the forwards on those teams, you would probably change your opinion on him. He's very annoying to play against and that big strong man can skate so he closes gaps well and he is hard to escape. I really do think Weber taught Chiarot a lot of things on how to play effectively in your own zone. Chiarot is not the guy he was when he left the Jets. Reality

Before NHL, Pelletier would be close to Caufield as a prospect. But Caufield is producing in the NHL and Pelletier is in the AHL. We need more time to properly evaluate that. It's just a bad comparison in terms of who would move who cause it overlooks one team as a contender while the other is in rebuild mode. Why don't you call up Pelletier and have him produce like Caufield did last playoffs? If you felt they were the same?

Regardless, I do agree with you that the Flames won't trade Pelletier for Chiarot. The rest is side debates

 

[The90]

I don't think Zadorov is better than Chiarot. It's close IMO but Chiarot's usage is higher. 20-23 min a game and has played to 25 min a game in certain stretches. Over the last few seasons, the usage numbers are there and Chiarot has proven his worth in D zone usage and min eater for top 4. Neither the Avs coach or the Flames coach has trusted Zadorov in a 20-23 min role.

Chiarot was a big piece for the Habs in series wins against the Pens, Leafs, Jets, Knights. If you had the chance to talk to the forwards on those teams, you would probably change your opinion on him.

Before NHL, Pelletier would be close to Caufield as a prospect. But Caufield is producing in the NHL and Pelletier is in the AHL. We need more time to properly evaluate that. It's just a bad comparison in terms of who would move who cause it overlooks one team as a contender while the other is in rebuild mode.

Why don't you call up Pelletier and have him produce like Caufield did last playoffs? If you felt they were the same?

This is of course only true if you’re a Habs fan that doesn’t realize that you overvalue every single player on the Habs.

 

[Stewie Griffin]

How so? How has Caufield been better than Pelletier? Both played in the AHL this year and both were roughly a point per game as rookies, just because Pelletier hasn't been called up to his contending NHL affiliate team and Caufield has to his tanking NHL affiliate doesn't make him better.

Chairot's rep is a big guy that is a 3rd pair guy that can hit really hard and move up the depth chart if he needs to, how is that different from Zadorov?

Caufield has higher draft pedigree, college hockey MVP, a strong playoff run last year, and is turning this season around. Caufield was voted in the top 10 in almost all prospect pools in this season, while Pelletier somewhere in the top-50.

Zadarov was traded for a 3rd round pick last year, something that Chiarot will definitely return more. As mentioned above, Chiarot has a more known track record in terms of usage, and success on the teams he has played for.

And this is all coming from a guy who argues against Habs threads all the time.