Value of: Carter Hart to Habs

[EquivalentStay]

Why are you obsessed with devaluing Savard in the Hart trade?

Why are you obsessed with overvaluing him? And everyone else in a Habs sweater?

 

[1865]

Flyers weren't terrible 2-3 years ago. What did he do then??

Fact is. flyers fans value him at a top15 pick when the ONLY goalie traded for a top10 pick in the last 10 years was in a weak draft after a vezina-esque season.

It's not going to happen, goalies aren't worth that much, and worst case scenario we will just wait til another goalie like Saaros hits UFA or when Askarov decides he has been a back up long enough so we can snag him for late 1st / early 2nd like Vanecek

To repost an image from before:

What's he done? More games than any goalie his age ever except Vasi, Mason and Price and he's doing it on piss poor teams too.

He's 24, most goalies are only just hitting the NHL in the first place. People pay a lot for potential in this league.

 

[CanadienShark]

He's outproduces Hughes this year. Being a year younger...
Offensively speaking he is Cale Makar level and even better... You can't put that aside.

I do think that we should temper our expectations and how we describe the guy. To say he's producing at a level that's similar (or better) than Makar at a lower level is correct. Let's not say "he's on Makar's level" because that rightly triggers people. Makar is a special player. What Hutson is doing is incredible, so let's sit back and enjoy. Hopefully he can come close to what Makar has already done in the NHL.

 

[HuGo Sham]

fla 1st, 4th, hudson.

lol

Best D prospect in the NHL lol

He's not the best D prospect, he's habs best D prospect - and no habs fan is giving up Hutson + 2023 1st and a 4th for Hart

 

[Mersss]

To repost an image from before:

View attachment 669948

What's he done? More games than any goalie his age ever except Vasi, Mason and Price and he's doing it on piss poor teams too.

He's 24, most goalies are only just hitting the NHL in the first place. People pay a lot for potential in this league.

You do realize Hart has the lowest save % of all those goalies right?

Playing on a crap team means nothing. He's a .900 goalie right now, and it isnt trending upwards. Yes people pay for potential, but we've already seen enough of Hart to know that as of now he's a decent starter and that's it.

Not worth a top15 pick in the best draft in 10years.

 

[ole ole]

Totally agree . I’m done . Back to Hart

Hart has been terrible this season. His value has gone down.

 

[HuGort]

I doubt any substance to Flyers moving Hart. Briere was on Marek show today saying he likes way future looks with Hart in net and prospects they have drafted coming together

 

[McSuper]

What the Flyers fans want for him?

More than Hab fans want for Edmundson and that's a first so a first ++

 

[McSuper]

Hart has been terrible this season. His value has gone down.

While I don't disagree with your overall take I have to question this when Hab fans defend Edmundson. Edmundson has had 2 bad seasons and we hear it is because he on a bad team and yet you don't consider this with Hart? Lets use the same measuring stick.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

He's outproduces Hughes this year. Being a year younger...
Offensively speaking he is Cale Makar level and even better... You can't put that aside.

Makar looks to be generational, there are no dmen like him or even close to him, let alone a guy who (yes looks very good) but has never played an NHL games, what an absolutely ridiculous take this is.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Makes no sense for Philly to trade Hart. imo this would be the exact same thing they did with Bob.

 

[McSuper]

This offer is not good and would be a conversation ender.

I would beat that offer. For Hart only. Ceci and 2024 1st. Have to have Holland admit Campbell was a bad signing and buy him out so highly unlikely

 

[FlyguyOX]

He has not been terrible this season. FFS.

Minimum 2000min played this he's 6th in GSAx:

 

[jfhabs]

An unprotected 2024 1st from a team like the Habs is worth multiple late 1sts imo.

Hard to imagine getting a better pick anywhere else. I doubt the Habs would even do that tbh.

The problem is there's way too much risk involved. If that pick isn't 5-10ov at least, it's an extremeley bad return.

The type of deal that gets you fired in no time.

Of course there are small odds you look loke a lucky genius down the road. But its like winning at roulette

 

[jfhabs]

Like all the prospects who never played pro hockey before.
Remember how Primeau was a sure thing when he dominated in NCAA? How KK was a great pick because he was a few months younger and already playing in a men’s league?

same g duo, same 6 dmen, same forwards except for Monahan, Drouin, Byron = same results Last in Atlantic.

next one could be Slafkovsky. First line material is not a certainty.

Yes and no. The Atlantic is strong as f**ck to start, but we had so many injuries. Just having 5 of Matheson, Edmunson, Guhle, Savard, Harris, Xhekaj could help.

Not to mention our best goal scorer on pace for nearly 50 got injured mid way thru. 4 out of 5 of our centers etc etc.

It's been half rocket of Laval half Montréal canadiens for the past 20+ games.

Even a good team would miss the playoffs.

We carried a lot of dead weight forward to start the year. Drouin, Hoffman, Armia and Dadonov. Hopefully we can get rid of Hoffman and Armia somehow, but it should help to jave guys who are actually trying from the start too.

 

[Mersss]

Makar looks to be generational, there are no dmen like him or even close to him, let alone a guy who (yes looks very good) but has never played an NHL games, what an absolutely ridiculous take this is.

I was comparing their NCAA career. Lane is doing much better than any other dman that went through there in the past 5+10 years.

 

[ponder719]

Makes no sense for Philly to trade Hart. imo this would be the exact same thing they did with Bob.

The context would be very different. With Bob, we were attempting to shift into "win a Cup" mode, Mr. Snider didn't trust a young goalie in that context, so he pushed for the acquisition of Bryzgalov, which (understandably) ticked off Bob, who requested a trade. Trading Bob was never the plan, it was a side effect of another decision that, while made with understandable goals in mind, ended up backfiring spectacularly.

This would be a case where we need to get worse, quickly, for a while, to help build up our stock of prospects as we lay out a long-term plan for respectability. Hart makes that effort measurably more difficult by being much better at his job than we'd benefit from, so it'll take longer to collect that bounty of talent. That in turn would make it less likely that Hart will still be at his peak by the time we have a worthwhile enough team around him. Ultimately, I think it comes down to whether we think Hart will sign a long-term deal with Philly or not. If he gets frustrated and asks out after his RFA years, then we end up with the worst of all possible worlds, so we need to either get a long-term deal locked in or make the move, take the assets in return, and continue to develop Ersson and (hopefully) Fedotov.

 

[Drive425]

While I don't disagree with your overall take I have to question this when Hab fans defend Edmundson. Edmundson has had 2 bad seasons and we hear it is because he on a bad team and yet you don't consider this with Hart? Lets use the same measuring stick.

Historical returns for Goalies is much less than dmen. I can't remember the last time a goalie was traded for a top ten pick++.

 

[JRichard]

Yes and no. The Atlantic is strong as f**ck to start, but we had so many injuries. Just having 5 of Matheson, Edmunson, Guhle, Savard, Harris, Xhekaj could help.

Not to mention our best goal scorer on pace for nearly 50 got injured mid way thru. 4 out of 5 of our centers etc etc.

It's been half rocket of Laval half Montréal canadiens for the past 20+ games.

Even a good team would miss the playoffs.

We carried a lot of dead weight forward to start the year. Drouin, Hoffman, Armia and Dadonov. Hopefully we can get rid of Hoffman and Armia somehow, but it should help to jave guys who are actually trying from the start too.

Injuries…
caufield and Slaf played 46 and 39. Xhekaj 50. Counting on a healthy Monahan was dumb thats why you got a 1st to take him.
Injuries to Gallagher, Byron were more of a blessing.

Couturier and Atkinson played 0 game in philly. Plus all the others who played around 40.
Columbus lost Werenski and Voracek after 10 games.

both those teams would have gotten more points too if healthy.
Wash lost many good players: Carlson, Backstrom, Wilson all played around 25 games.

 

[JRichard]

The context would be very different. With Bob, we were attempting to shift into "win a Cup" mode, Mr. Snider didn't trust a young goalie in that context, so he pushed for the acquisition of Bryzgalov, which (understandably) ticked off Bob, who requested a trade. Trading Bob was never the plan, it was a side effect of another decision that, while made with understandable goals in mind, ended up backfiring spectacularly.

This would be a case where we need to get worse, quickly, for a while, to help build up our stock of prospects as we lay out a long-term plan for respectability. Hart makes that effort measurably more difficult by being much better at his job than we'd benefit from, so it'll take longer to collect that bounty of talent. That in turn would make it less likely that Hart will still be at his peak by the time we have a worthwhile enough team around him. Ultimately, I think it comes down to whether we think Hart will sign a long-term deal with Philly or not. If he gets frustrated and asks out after his RFA years, then we end up with the worst of all possible worlds, so we need to either get a long-term deal locked in or make the move, take the assets in return, and continue to develop Ersson and (hopefully) Fedotov.

All serious goalie stats have Hart around 9-12 in the league this season.
And people forget how young he is because he was pushed into duty too early (the 8 goalie season)
Hart is 12 months older than « prospect » Cayden Primeau…

at this time i bet on Ersson and fedotov and whoever can play for next 2 rebuilding seasons and get max value from Hart. Wont be with Mtl though…

 

[Rich Nixon]

He has not been terrible this season. FFS.

Minimum 2000min played this he's 6th in GSAx:

View attachment 670620

I'm not entirely out on some fancy stats, but I think it's really funny that he's also 6th in regular 'ol save percentage in that group. Are there guys with 33+ starts but below the cutoff with lower GSAx and higher SV%? There can't be.

 

[StewieP19]

Montréal have assets to acquire Hart but did they really want to give it ?
That's the question.
I think Montréal are loaded in young D they can give one in the trade but Who

 

[JRichard]

Montréal have assets to acquire Hart but did they really want to give it ?
That's the question.
I think Montréal are loaded in young D they can give one in the trade but Who

they might consider trading the one they plucked out of waivers…

Harris is the name that starts to emerge: does nothing really bad or really good.
Most of their young d are untouchables: Guhle, Barron (because rd), Xhekaj (he fights) and Hutson (already better than Makar).
Cant play too many young guys on d. Especially when veterans are average at best: matheson, Savard, Edmunson. And goalies are Allen and Montambeault…

 

[jfhabs]

Injuries…
caufield and Slaf played 46 and 39. Xhekaj 50. Counting on a healthy Monahan was dumb thats why you got a 1st to take him.
Injuries to Gallagher, Byron were more of a blessing.

Couturier and Atkinson played 0 game in philly. Plus all the others who played around 40.
Columbus lost Werenski and Voracek after 10 games.

both those teams would have gotten more points too if healthy.
Wash lost many good players: Carlson, Backstrom, Wilson all played around 25 games.

Of course, other teams have injured players, but most of them had less then the Habs this year. We have 1 regular center playing right now. Dach, Evans, Dvorak and Monahan have missed significant time.

Gallagher is grossly overpaid, but he's not a bad player in a limited role.

Washington is also a good example of how injuries can derail a season. They should be a playoff team with a healthy line up.

The habs aren't a bottom 5 team if they are averagely healthy/injured. Probably in limbo in between 10-15th
So, all these injuries are actually a blessing in disguise.

 

[JRichard]

Of course, other teams have injured players, but most of them had less then the Habs this year. We have 1 regular center playing right now. Dach, Evans, Dvorak and Monahan have missed significant time.

Gallagher is grossly overpaid, but he's not a bad player in a limited role.

Washington is also a good example of how injuries can derail a season. They should be a playoff team with a healthy line up.

The habs aren't a bottom 5 team if they are averagely healthy/injured. Probably in limbo in between 10-15th
So, all these injuries are actually a blessing in disguise.

I sure hope you mean 10-15th in the conference.
NHLinjuryviz on twitter has Habs 4th after Wsh, Phi, Clb, all east teams. Standings would have been closer but pretty much same order with Wsh making last wild card and not the Isles.