Value of: Carey Price 50% retained to your team

[Stuart Little]

there is absolutely ZERO CHANCE that Montreal is going to trade Price to Edmonton

#1 - Why on earth would they retain 5million dollars for 5 years???????

#2 - If they would do #1 - it would take a kings ransom in order to do so
- we are talking - Puljujarvi, 1st, and one of Broberg/Bouchard - at the very least


- doing this would actually cripple Edmonton even more - as why would they want to pay an "unstable goalie" 5 M for 5 more years too - and they have a tonne of holes to fill

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Not mad about anything. Just defending my stance. You won't find anything I already don't know. You just value him differently so we are going to have to set this aside cause it's the same things said over and over again. You can talk to others and I will do the same. Nothing more to say between you and me on this conversation at this point in time.

Lets wait to see if/when he is traded. For what return. And how he does with a new team if traded. We'll see who wins this tug of war in the end then!

I'm happy to wait and see. But, let's set out some ground rules for what constitutes a win.

My claim is that he's not worth acquiring right now due to the concerns that currently surround him. So, if he's not traded before those concerns are addressed, I win. And that includes waiting 2+ years to move him, since the length of his remaining contract is one of those concerns.

For you to win, I'd think that Price would need to be traded in the near future, for the return you want. Or do we also need to consider Grubauer's play in Seattle and believe Roy's 6th best in the NHL SV% over 4 years prior to the trade is "poor" and no different than Price's 39th best SV% over the last 4 years?

 

[Habs Halifax]

I'm happy to wait and see. But, let's set out some ground rules for what constitutes a win.

My claim is that he's not worth acquiring right now due to the concerns that currently surround him. So, if he's not traded before those concerns are addressed, I win. And that includes waiting 2+ years to move him, since the length of his remaining contract is one of those concerns.

For you to win, I'd think that Price would need to be traded in the near future, for the return you want. Or do we also need to consider Grubauer's play in Seattle and believe Roy's 6th best in the NHL SV% over 4 years prior to the trade is "poor" and no different than Price's 39th best SV% over the last 4 years?

What are your concerns? Health? The point of this thread is trading him when healthy, not before. It's been said over and over again.

The concerns don't really matter on his future value and production (after he is traded.. if he is traded). This tug of war debate will be settled if he is traded and we would only need 1 or 2 years to see what happens.

 

[BlueBrunswick]

This is a fun exercise, but we have to consider the actual landing place for Price is pretty small - nothing is happening this year...16 teams are already using Long-Term Injury Replacement, which means they are at or over the cap and if you look at capfriendly.com another twelve are projected to have no cap space. Another eight are projected to have less than $300,000 in cap space by the end of the season. As far as this year goes - only the Bruins, Wild, Rangers, Predators and Ducks are in playoff contention and have significant cap space to make room. So there would be a lot of moving parts, so a playoff team would have to add 5+ million to their cap while also moving out 5 million. Montreal - who has serious cap problems would have to retain 5+ million while taking on 5+ million... The Habs are going to struggle to stay cap compliant this year...when Price and Byron come off LTIR they won’t have much wiggle room. As it stands now - regardless of what happens with Price, the Habs desperately need cap space - do they want to keep Romanov, right now they have no possible rom to do that. The only cap space the Habs have is the unused LTIR relief for this season, but by the end of the season they are projected to have zero space.

Next year, Suzuki’s deal kicks in, The Habs will have $84.1MM in commitments to 13 players, Weber will be on LTIR, but they still have fill out their team with minimum wage players, like I said that's before signing Romanov, so if any trade for Price is going to happen, the Habs can't be taking back bad contracts in return.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

What are your concerns? Health? The point of this thread is trading him when healthy, not before. It's been said over and over again.

The concerns don't really matter on his future value and production (after he is traded.. if he is traded). This tug of war debate will be settled if he is traded and we would only need 1 or 2 years to see what happens.

You just quoted a post where I explained the concerns. Maybe you should try reading what other people say before replying.

 

[Habs Halifax]

You just quoted a post where I explained the concerns. Maybe you should try reading what other people say before replying.

My apologies, I just seen a lot of post from you talking about the same stuff and I honestly have decided not to read all of it cause it's the same stuff.

So length of term is one of your concerns and I'm assuming there are other things as well based on what you have already said. OK sure. I think we can get a good idea on how it goes down and if it was a good or bad move in 2 years (if traded).

 

[ManofSteel55]

This is a fun exercise, but we have to consider the actual landing place for Price is pretty small - nothing is happening this year...16 teams are already using Long-Term Injury Replacement, which means they are at or over the cap and if you look at capfriendly.com another twelve are projected to have no cap space. Another eight are projected to have less than $300,000 in cap space by the end of the season. As far as this year goes - only the Bruins, Wild, Rangers, Predators and Ducks are in playoff contention and have significant cap space to make room. So there would be a lot of moving parts, so a playoff team would have to add 5+ million to their cap while also moving out 5 million. Montreal - who has serious cap problems would have to retain 5+ million while taking on 5+ million... The Habs are going to struggle to stay cap compliant this year...when Price and Byron come off LTIR they won’t have much wiggle room. As it stands now - regardless of what happens with Price, the Habs desperately need cap space - do they want to keep Romanov, right now they have no possible rom to do that. The only cap space the Habs have is the unused LTIR relief for this season, but by the end of the season they are projected to have zero space.

Next year, Suzuki’s deal kicks in, The Habs will have $84.1MM in commitments to 13 players, Weber will be on LTIR, but they still have fill out their team with minimum wage players, like I said that's before signing Romanov, so if any trade for Price is going to happen, the Habs can't be taking back bad contracts in return.

They can if they are expiring bad contracts. The 50% cap retention is a big issue for them though. That's a lot of bread for 4 years, and any decent goalie will make similar to what Price's retention is going to be, so the Habs won't even get much cap relief if they trade him with retention.

Another problem, of course, is that Price isn't ready to come back and contribute right now, so it makes it harder to find a trade partner. The Habs would be better off waiting until after Price has played some games. If he plays well, then its a bit more plausible to expect some interest if the Habs retain enough, but I can't see any teams trading for him without the type of retention that makes the trade make no sense for Montreal. Remember, an expansion team with 0 dollars dedicated to player salaries opted to pass on Carey Price for free.

 

[Habs Halifax]

This is a fun exercise, but we have to consider the actual landing place for Price is pretty small - nothing is happening this year...16 teams are already using Long-Term Injury Replacement, which means they are at or over the cap and if you look at capfriendly.com another twelve are projected to have no cap space. Another eight are projected to have less than $300,000 in cap space by the end of the season. As far as this year goes - only the Bruins, Wild, Rangers, Predators and Ducks are in playoff contention and have significant cap space to make room. So there would be a lot of moving parts, so a playoff team would have to add 5+ million to their cap while also moving out 5 million. Montreal - who has serious cap problems would have to retain 5+ million while taking on 5+ million... The Habs are going to struggle to stay cap compliant this year...when Price and Byron come off LTIR they won’t have much wiggle room. As it stands now - regardless of what happens with Price, the Habs desperately need cap space - do they want to keep Romanov, right now they have no possible rom to do that. The only cap space the Habs have is the unused LTIR relief for this season, but by the end of the season they are projected to have zero space.

Next year, Suzuki’s deal kicks in, The Habs will have $84.1MM in commitments to 13 players, Weber will be on LTIR, but they still have fill out their team with minimum wage players, like I said that's before signing Romanov, so if any trade for Price is going to happen, the Habs can't be taking back bad contracts in return.

If the Habs move Price with 50% retention, they will be open to taking back a cap dump but that's not more than 1/2 years.

We are not going to retain $5.25M, take on another $5M contract with the same term and then take a low futures return with the hope those futures turn out into something.

Habs wiggle room in our cap this year is a non factor. Cause we are going to move some contracts out at the deadline

 

[koyvoo]

If Colorado traded for Price last year, they would’ve beaten Vegas instead of having Vegas so badly expose their butter soft defence.

He beat Vegas, so him and Colorado would definitely beat Vegas. To me, that’s worth slot more than magic beans. But I understand that I’m on futures based website, and here magic beans are always valued more than a known quantity. Even if that known quantity is a much, much better chance at a Stanley Cup.

 

[Stuart Little]

How and why on earth would they
a) retain price for 5 years
b) also take on another bad contract (which a team like Edmonton, etc) would need to do in order to make the math work

for example

Koskinen, 1st, Broberg
for Price

isnt even close

especially when you consider MTL is doing Edm the favour of taking Koskinen's contract (even if it is for the year = they are "HELPING THEM")
- also they would have to retain 5m on price for 5 years - why would MTL want to handcuff themselves for 5 year - paying a player not on their roster?

THE BIGGEST THING people are not realizing - WHAT IF PRICE DOESNT WANT TO GO TO EDMONTON!!!!!!!!

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

My apologies, I just seen a lot of post from you talking about the same stuff and I honestly have decided not to read all of it cause it's the same stuff.

So length of term is one of your concerns and I'm assuming there are other things as well based on what you have already said. OK sure. I think we can get a good idea on how it goes down and if it was a good or bad move in 2 years (if traded).

So, you got tired of legitimate points with fact based evidence, and decided to just argue against your own assumptions? I wish that was more surprising...

 

[Habs Halifax]

So, you got tired of legitimate points with fact based evidence, and decided to just argue against your own assumptions? I wish that was more surprising...

I can't control your comprehension, nor will I be held responsible for it. "Legitimate points" seems like a one way street with you which is a ineffective way to have a conversation.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

If Colorado traded for Price last year, they would’ve beaten Vegas instead of having Vegas so badly expose their butter soft defence.

He beat Vegas, so him and Colorado would definitely beat Vegas. To me, that’s worth slot more than magic beans. But I understand that I’m on futures based website, and here magic beans are always valued more than a known quantity. Even if that known quantity is a much, much better chance at a Stanley Cup.

Price also failed to lead his team to a top 16 finish in the regular season, so should we also assume that the Avs would also not be a playoff team without special covid rules? Or is it possible that there's too many variables to assume that anything would have "definitely" happened.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I can't control your comprehension, nor will I be held responsible for it. "Legitimate points" seems like a one way street with you which is a ineffective way to have a conversation

What legitimate point is there that Price is worth acquiring? I keep asking Habs fans this question and still haven't seen a single answer that makes a legitimate point. It's all excuses and empty promises.

 

[koyvoo]

Price also failed to lead his team to a top 16 finish in the regular season, so should we also assume that the Avs would also not be a playoff team without special covid rules? Or is it possible that there's too many variables to assume that anything would have "definitely" happened.

The guy was on like a run of 27-1 playoff record until the Tampa series while getting 3 goals support. It may not have been exactly 27-1, but something like that. Definitely only 1 loss in twenty something wins woth decent offensive support.

This is on a shit Montreal team. Good teams don’t want to trade middling prospects for a guy with that kind of playoff pedigree. It just doesn’t make any sense to me. I fully believe that if Colorado traded for him 3 years ago, they’d have a Cup by now. That’s the route I’d take, rather than hold onto to hope that some prospect does indeed turn into a top line player (which they already gave plenty of).

 

[Habs Halifax]

They can if they are expiring bad contracts. The 50% cap retention is a big issue for them though. That's a lot of bread for 4 years, and any decent goalie will make similar to what Price's retention is going to be, so the Habs won't even get much cap relief if they trade him with retention.

Another problem, of course, is that Price isn't ready to come back and contribute right now, so it makes it harder to find a trade partner. The Habs would be better off waiting until after Price has played some games. If he plays well, then its a bit more plausible to expect some interest if the Habs retain enough, but I can't see any teams trading for him without the type of retention that makes the trade make no sense for Montreal. Remember, an expansion team with 0 dollars dedicated to player salaries opted to pass on Carey Price for free.

1) If the Habs trade Price, we are going to rebuild and that process is 3-5 years. Why would the Habs need cap space in this case? To sign guys that hurt our tank? That makes no sense to me. Of course we need to get to the cap floor but his retention will help with that and we won't be trading everyone over the age of 25. Only a select few and probably run with a $70M cap or something like that. It's definitely manageable if we are doing a full rebuild.

2) It's unlikely he is traded this year but things change quickly in the NHL. If there is a deal both the Oilers and Habs agree on and Price plays from Jan-End of March, It can pick up steam. And yeah, Oilers would need to be happy with how he plays from Jan-End of March. Very reasonable. But lets say he is healthy but his stats are bad because our team is horrible. Please don't call us looking to capitalize on a cheap offer and also want retention. That's not going to go well and you either believe in his abilities on a contender or not.

The Olympics are a wild card is this situation as well. First step is health and then does he play for Canada. If he does and is the Price of old, that kind of settles things down a bit, don't you think?

 

[BlueBrunswick]

I'm not sure what the Habs do with Price, other than play him 50 to 55 games or so a year until his contract expires - at this point, that's what he has to be, they can't play him the heavy minutes they've been... you'll have to have a good enough back up to get you to the playoffs while protecting Price from heavy minutes or he will break down - hope for the best in the payoffs. Even at 50% he is a foolish acquisition, 5.5 million is still a top end goaltender contract - and since he signed his mega deal the market for goaltenders has changed, Vasilevskiy got his big deal and so did Bobrovsky, also a questionable deal, but since then many teams have been going with a tandem - do you think at the end of Hellebuyck's current deal, he'll be 31, a team is going to pay him close to 10 million for 7 years? Not a chance, Price's deal signed in 2017 will still be the richest goaltender deal 10 years from now.

So it's pretty clear we won't be traded this year, so any trade speculation is for the summer or next year and would be a team trading for a 35 year old goaltender, paying him 5+ million for three more years after the trade (that's if the Habs retain 50%)?

I believe Price will retire a Hab, and by that I mean LTIR within the next 3 years - it's the only way to preserve his reputation.

 

[Habs Halifax]

The guy was on like a run of 27-1 playoff record until the Tampa series while getting 3 goals support. It may not have been exactly 27-1, but something like that. Definitely only 1 loss in twenty something wins woth decent offensive support.

This is on a shit Montreal team. Good teams don’t want to trade middling prospects for a guy with that kind of playoff pedigree. It just doesn’t make any sense to me. I fully believe that if Colorado traded for him 3 years ago, they’d have a Cup by now. That’s the route I’d take, rather than hold onto to hope that some prospect does indeed turn into a top line player (which they already gave plenty of).

That poster has been obsessive with devaluing Price for a few years now. I agree with you and I think the Avs could have a cup if they had Price. The old replies we got was that you can win with a "hot cheap goalie" in the playoffs. Well both the Avs and Oilers have tried it and failed. Leafs are trying it with Campbell but it didn't work against the less inferior Habs in the last playoffs. Not saying it's impossible cause it can happen but it's wishful thinking and it's gambling with strong top heavy contending years IMO.

Some need to let this sink it... Who's going to have better stats? Grubauer from age 30-34 or Price from 34-38? Cause if Price is traded with 50% retention, the cap hits are the same. I wonder why Grubauer's "regular season" stats go from Vezina finalist to the stats he got this year with a team not as good as the Avs? Can't have anything to do with the team in front of them right? Price taking the Habs to the finals was fluke but they also say "Habs are nothing without Price". What a bunch of nonsense.

Grubauer must be in massive decline now that he has turned 30.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

The guy was on like a run of 27-1 playoff record until the Tampa series while getting 3 goals support. It may not have been exactly 27-1, but something like that. Definitely only 1 loss in twenty something wins woth decent offensive support.

This is on a shit Montreal team. Good teams don’t want to trade middling prospects for a guy with that kind of playoff pedigree. It just doesn’t make any sense to me. I fully believe that if Colorado traded for him 3 years ago, they’d have a Cup by now. That’s the route I’d take, rather than hold onto to hope that some prospect does indeed turn into a top line player (which they already gave plenty of).

Since 2017-18, the Avs are 20-6 in playoff games where they've scored at least 3 goals. Grubauer was something like 15-2 in playoff games with 3 goals support in his time in Colorado, with most of the losses being with Bernier/injured Francouz/Hutchinson in net. So, how many more wins would that really translate to? Are we supposed to believe that Price would have stayed healthy against Dallas? Or convinced the refs to admit that Landeskog wasn't offside against San Jose? Or maybe he would have made the Avs score more than 3 goals in the first 3 losses to Vegas?

I also don't get why a prospect needs to be a top line player to be worth keeping over a minor upgrade in net. With the grind of the playoffs, having good players up and down the lineup is much more important than simply having the best goalie on paper.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

That poster has been obsessive with devaluing Price for a few years now. I agree with you and I think the Avs could have a cup if they had Price. The old replies we got was that you can win with a "hot cheap goalie" in the playoffs. Well both the Avs and Oilers have tried it and failed. Leafs are trying it with Campbell but it didn't work against the less inferior Habs in the last playoffs. Not saying it's impossible cause it can happen but it's wishful thinking and it's gambling with strong top heavy contending years IMO.

Some need to let this sink it... Who's going to have better stats? Grubauer from age 30-34 or Price from 34-38? Cause if Price is traded with 50% retention, the cap hits are the same. I wonder why Grubauer's "regular season" stats go from Vezina finalist to the stats he got this year with a team not as good as the Avs? Can't have anything to do with the team in front of them right? Price taking the Habs to the finals was fluke but they also say "Habs are nothing without Price". What a bunch of nonsense.

Grubauer must be in massive decline now that he has turned 30.

Me - "What makes Price better than everyone else to justify the cost of acquisition?"

You - "Grubauer sucks in Seattle"

Me - "And why does that matter?"

You - "This guy is so obsessed with making Price look bad."

Me - "Ok, please explain what makes him so good?"

You - "Grubauer sucks."

 

[McShogun99]

If the Habs plan on rebuilding then they have to trade Price, with him their chances of getting a high 1st are low. If they’re willing to retain 40% then you probably create a bidding war between a handful of teams that see Price as a major piece to win a Cup. Even with 40% retention it’s a major risk to aquifer Price because of his age and injury history. I think Montreal fans will be very disappointed with the return.

 

[Kosseca]

If the Habs plan on rebuilding then they have to trade Price, with him their chances of getting a high 1st are low. If they’re willing to retain 40% then you probably create a bidding war between a handful of teams that see Price as a major piece to win a Cup. Even with 40% retention it’s a major risk to aquifer Price because of his age and injury history. I think Montreal fans will be very disappointed with the return.

Actually, the best outcome for MTL if not to trade Price but for him to retire or LTIR like Weber. His contract is impossible to trade and retaining in a deal is counter productive on all level. In terms of asset acquisition in a potential trade, the only way he can return something is if MTL retain and again, why would they handcuff themselves that much?

If Price still wants to play and win, his best option is mutual termination of the contract and move on to a cup contender.

I'm of the view that his re-conditioning right now is driven by a potential Olympic spot. I wouldn't be surprised if he call it at the end of the season given all of what he when through in recent years and where his priority may be.

 

[McShogun99]

Actually, the best outcome for MTL if not to trade Price but for him to retire or LTIR like Weber. His contract is impossible to trade and retaining in a deal is counter productive on all level. In terms of asset acquisition in a potential trade, the only way he can return something is if MTL retain and again, why would they handcuff themselves that much?

If Price still wants to play and win, his best option is mutual termination of the contract and move on to a cup contender.

I'm of the view that his re-conditioning right now is driven by a potential Olympic spot. I wouldn't be surprised if he call it at the end of the season given all of what he when through in recent years and where his priority may be.

Why would Price throw away 40 million dollars when he’s still capable of playing. The Canadiens signed him to that deal and will have to honor it. It’s always a fans bases dream to make a bad contract disappear but at least when Price is playing he’s worth his money.

 

[pth2]

But I understand that I’m on futures based website, and here magic beans are always valued more than a known quantity. Even if that known quantity is a much, much better chance at a Stanley Cup.

It's the HF way. A prospect is always seen as a sure thing to reach his maximum potential and has to be rated as such.

I'm sure a lot of people still think Blake Coleman was traded for far too much, and the fact it helped Tampa get 2 Cups is really of no importance.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Price obviously has a HoF resume but I don’t see many, if any teams, interested in him until he shows that he’s still a capable starter after his recovery from substance abuse. I’m assuming the Habs are planning to showcase him as soon as he’s fit to go.