Proposal: CAR - CGY Blockbuster

[FrankAbagnale]

So both teams hate the trade......probably close on value.

 

[HighLifeMan]

I can't believe how underrated Dougie Hamilton has become, but hey, this is HF after all where a poor 15 game stretch ruins a players worth and ability. Dougie Hamilton has outproduced Jeff Skinner over the past two seasons..and it's not as if Skinner is some kind of two-way force himself.

In terms of value and ability
1. Johhny Gaudreau
2. Justin Faulk
3. Dougie Hamilton
4. Jeff Skinner

Calgary loses this deal.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

Essentially every hf poll and post about top-30 or #1 Dman rankings that has been conducted since the end of the 14-15 season? I'm sure you can find them if you look.

Says who? The polls. All of them.

Nice job, you managed to both choose a worse source (literally a random sample of hockey fans) than the guy you're arguing with, and fail to link the alleged sources, meaning we don't even know if your statement is accurate or not.

 

[DJJones]

Nice job, you managed to both choose a worse source (literally a random sample of hockey fans) than the guy you're arguing with, and fail to link the alleged sources, meaning we don't even know if your statement is accurate or not.

Ya I looked, the search function for this site is a disaster. Anything before this season started I'd accept even though the polls in this place are a disaster. Even with the group think here I'd be surprised if he was top 25 last year.

Everything I can find is just fantasy orientated which is meaningless.

 

[Lunatik]

Skinner's the better goal scorer and the Canes need goals. Doesn't make much sense for either team. Hamilton would leave them without a #1 on the right side.

And yet somehow since Gaudreau entered the league he has scored 54 goals to Skinner's 46 and if you look at points in that time period it's not even close since Johnny Hockey has outproduced Skinner by 60 points in that time.

 

[CaptainSexyPants]

Faulk >> Gaudreau
Hamilton >>> Skinner

More of a gap between Hamilton and Skinner, but negated by Faulk being the best piece in the deal.
If you figure Gaudreau gets at least 250k more than Monahan, Calgary saves at least 2.5 mil long term, which isn't a minor thing.

Little bit of an edge in Calgary's favor, but pretty even, IMO.

 

[Lunatik]

Faulk >> Gaudreau
Hamilton >>> Skinner

More of a gap between Hamilton and Skinner, but negated by Faulk being the best piece in the deal.
If you figure Gaudreau gets at least 250k more than Monahan, Calgary saves at least 2.5 mil long term, which isn't a minor thing.

Little bit of an edge in Calgary's favor, but pretty even, IMO.

I like Faulk but Gaudreau just finished 6th in league scoring as a sophomore, the list of players that are ">>" better than Gaudreau is extremely short and Faulk is not on it

 

[DaveG]

Neither team does this. As good as the Canes young D are, and still would be after adding Hamilton, they're not in a position to move on from Faulk yet for an asset. If Faulk's ever moved it's likely to be in a one for one deal for a top line centerman.

And there's absolutely no realistic reason for Calgary to EVER trade Johnny Hockey as long as they can afford him and he wants to be there.

 

[Seachd]

Sure, Faulk is not elite defensively yet. He is elite offensively.

I disagree with this. Karlsson is elite offensively.

I do agree that he's much better than Hamilton and likely will be for their careers.

 

[perronist]

i've probably watched more canes games this season than most of the other flames fans in this thread (including a handful live), and i hate to say it, but faulk didn't impress me that much (probably were some off nights for him plus his injury). slavin, on the other hand...

anyways, i wouldn't do this as a flames fan. hamilton is much closer to faulk than skinner is to gaudreau.

 

[PensandCaps]

Cgy declines easily.

 

[CaptainSexyPants]

I like Faulk but Gaudreau just finished 6th in league scoring as a sophomore, the list of players that are ">>" better than Gaudreau is extremely short and Faulk is not on it

The >> was more me trying to put some context on the Faulk/Gaudreau value vs. Hamilton/Skinner. But it's not so much about "better" as it is more valuable. As we just saw with Edmonton, a top 10 winger doesn't net a top 10 defenseman.

 

[Lunatik]

The >> was more me trying to put some context on the Faulk/Gaudreau value vs. Hamilton/Skinner. But it's not so much about "better" as it is more valuable. As we just saw with Edmonton, a top 10 winger doesn't net a top 10 defenseman.

No we saw how constantly losing, a player being notorious for being lazy and a team being desperate can kill their stars value. Hall's value around the league was because of those factors not the value of a forward vs. a defenseman

 

[caniac247]

No we saw how constantly losing, a player being notorious for being lazy and a team being desperate can kill their stars value. Hall's value around the league was because of those factors not the value of a forward vs. a defenseman

It's harder getting a top pairing defensemen, unless you draft one, than it is to get a 50 point forward. Top pairing defensemen these days are becoming more and more valuable than top 6 forwards.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

I disagree with this. Karlsson is elite offensively.
.

??? Does your definition of "elite" only extend to generational talents? Offensively Karlsson is the best d in the game.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Nice job, you managed to both choose a worse source (literally a random sample of hockey fans) than the guy you're arguing with, and fail to link the alleged sources, meaning we don't even know if your statement is accurate or not.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=113069849&highlight=rank#post113069849

If you think Faulk isn't top 30, post the 30 dmen who are better.

 

[DJJones]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=113069849&highlight=rank#post113069849

If you think Faulk isn't top 30, post the 30 dmen who are better.

I think he's a low end #1 so I'd put him around 25th. Stralman, Muzzin, E Johnson tier. Last year I thought he was just a #1 by default so 35-45th.

Even if those PP goals were luck it's still impressive this year. Not too many guys that can do that, doesn't make him elite though.

That poll you posted was made when he was on his ridiculous goal streak. Some of those comments are hilariously over the top.

 

[GoldiFox]

Nice job, you managed to both choose a worse source (literally a random sample of hockey fans) than the guy you're arguing with, and fail to link the alleged sources, meaning we don't even know if your statement is accurate or not.

Not arguing, I know what the polls said because I've laid eyes on most of them in the past 2-3 years. I also watch hockey regularly, listen to hockey radio and podcasts, and participate on multiple hockey sites. The burden of proof isn't on me to prove something that is common knowledge. Faulk has been considered a top NHL D for a while, I was shooting down the guy making it seem like nobody knew who he was before he scored a ton of PP goals early last season. That simply isn't true.

You think a random blogger on Bleacher Report is a better source? Or fantasy articles from 2014 that state Sekera still plays for the Canes? It takes about half a second to realize those were clearly poor references.

 

[DJJones]

Not arguing, I know what the polls said because I've laid eyes on most of them in the past 2-3 years. I also watch hockey regularly, listen to hockey radio and podcasts, and participate on multiple hockey sites. The burden of proof isn't on me to prove something that is common knowledge. Faulk has been considered a top NHL D for a while, I was shooting down the guy making it seem like nobody knew who he was before he scored a ton of PP goals early last season. That simply isn't true.

You think a random blogger on Bleacher Report is a better source? Or fantasy articles from 2014 that state Sekera still plays for the Canes? It takes about half a second to realize those were clearly poor references.

Then find one....

Everything I can find just says he's a gifted offensive player that has defensive problems. Pretty much exactly what they say about Hamilton. Neither is close to elite until they can defend.

http://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/739784

The score really likes him.

 

[GoldiFox]

Just to prove this common knowledge post because you guys are too lazy:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1938935 - Faulk rated with Josi and Carlsson

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1893951 - Faulk at 21 for NA Scouting

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1929925 - Lists with Faulk as a #1

All before last season started. Again, I'm not going to spend my day pulling old polls for you that state something that is common knowledge. These are just three quick references I found with about 5 minutes of searching for anything pre 15-16 season ranking D.

 

[Sweetpotato]

I guess it all depends on whether CAL want to pay Johnny what he wants. If not then this is good value and makes their defense arguably the best in the league. I highly doubt CAL won't pay him what he wants/is worth so it's all moot since he'll be signed and everyone will keep their guy.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

I think he's a low end #1 so I'd put him around 25th. Stralman, Muzzin, E Johnson tier. Last year I thought he was just a #1 by default so 35-45th.
.

So in the space of a day, you've gone from "not top 30" to "around 25". What changed?

Also Muzzin and Strahlman are #2's who benefit from playing with superior players in Doughty and Hedman. I wouldn't compare them to Faulk.

That poll you posted was made when he was on his ridiculous goal streak. Some of those comments are hilariously over the top.

The person wanted a source for the claim of the existence of polls that show the mass opinion of Faulk on HF, specifically as top dman.

You don't care that Faulk had an elite year on the PP (though 20 ES points in 64 games isn't chopped liver), fine. That said, it seems a bit silly to question the accuracy of a poll because of its inclusion of certain data after you brought in 2 sources that specifically did not include said data +, of all things, fantasy rankings. Specifically fantasy rankings taken after a period where Faulk had come back from injury.

This seems to be the conversation:

"I don't get why Faulk is top 30...."
"Because, in large part, his elite year on the PP'
"But I don't care about PP..."

like I said, fine- but understand that when people hype Faulk to your befuddlement, this is the source of the disagreement.

 

[McSuper]

I don't think Carolina does this without Calgary adding something else. The small upgrade over Skinner can't make up for losing Faulk.

The upgrade over Skinner is far from small . Flames say No

 

[McSuper]

i've probably watched more canes games this season than most of the other flames fans in this thread (including a handful live), and i hate to say it, but faulk didn't impress me that much (probably were some off nights for him plus his injury). slavin, on the other hand...

anyways, i wouldn't do this as a flames fan. hamilton is much closer to faulk than skinner is to gaudreau.

On top of that Hamilton is still developing so who knows what he becomes . It an easy no from the Flames

 

[DJJones]

So in the space of a day, you've gone from "not top 30" to "around 25". What changed?

Also Muzzin and Strahlman are #2's who benefit from playing with superior players in Doughty and Hedman. I wouldn't compare them to Faulk.



The person wanted a source for the claim of the existence of polls that show the mass opinion of Faulk on HF, specifically as top dman.

You don't care that Faulk had an elite year on the PP (though 20 ES points in 64 games isn't chopped liver), fine. That said, it seems a bit silly to question the accuracy of a poll because of its inclusion of certain data after you brought in 2 sources that specifically did not include said data +, of all things, fantasy rankings. Specifically fantasy rankings taken after a period where Faulk had come back from injury.

This seems to be the conversation:

"I don't get why Faulk is top 30...."
"Because, in large part, his elite year on the PP'
"But I don't care about PP..."

like I said, fine- but understand that when people hype Faulk to your befuddlement, this is the source of the disagreement.

Eh, all things equal I would take Muzzin or Stralman over Faulk. Faulk would win because he's 24 and cheap but skill today I'll go with the proven #2's.

https://www.nhl.com/news/fantasy-hockey-defenseman-rankings/c-281127154

Dougie Hamilton is ranked ten spots higher than Brodie for fantasy and one spot behind Faulk. I am actually shocked that Faulk is that low. People must be expecting some regression. And that's why I don't care at all about fantasy rankings. Of course a guy getting 23 minutes a night and PP1 duties is going to be ranked highly. In the real world, Brodie is massively better than Hamilton.