Speculation: Caps Roster General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2022-23 Season Part 3: Drop the puck!

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Jags

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Seems clear they will force feed Backstrom into the top-6 at C to start as they should for his salary.


Because you have a 9+ mil a year player who you need to determine if he can carry his weight in the role he’s paid for, I’d wager.

Cap hits have nothing to do with it. Our 3rd line plays plenty of minutes and right around the amount Nick should be playing. Putting 9.2 on the 3rd line makes as much sense as putting 5.7 in the bleachers.

Our top 6 had been playing very well. No reason to break that up in a major way. Backstrom on the 3rd makes sense. Mantha/Backstrom/Oshie is a solid line on either end of the ice.
 

CapitalsCupReality

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Cap hits have nothing to do with it. Our 3rd line plays plenty of minutes and right around the amount Nick should be playing. Putting 9.2 on the 3rd line makes as much sense as putting 5.7 in the bleachers.

Our top 6 had been playing very well. No reason to break that up in a major way. Backstrom on the 3rd makes sense. Mantha/Backstrom/Oshie is a solid line on either end of the ice.
how can you possibly think cap hit doesn’t have anything to do with it? He’s the 2nd highest paid player on the team. They don‘t want him in a 3rd line role, they don’t see him in a 3rd line role longterm (and I suspect neither does Backstrom), so they will battle test him in the top-6 first and adjust accordingly. They need to have an idea of a path forward with him as soon as possible IMO. This outcome will impact their direction heading into the trade deadline and the off-season.
 
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twabby

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how can you possibly think cap hit doesn’t have anything to do with it? He’s the 2nd highest paid player on the team. They don‘t want him in a 3rd line role, they don’t see him in a 3rd line role longterm (and I suspect neither does Backstrom), so they will battle test him in the top-6 first and adjust accordingly. They need to have an idea of a path forward with him as soon as possible IMO.

If Backstrom can't outplay Strome or Kuznetsov at center but is a perfectly good 3C why wouldn't that be fine? If they're going in with an attitude of top 6 or bust then they are failing the rest of the team IMO.

It's a lot of money for a 3C but this isn't some UFA they signed. It's a franchise legend who got paid as a reward for past performance after years of being underpaid. He should get the minutes where he is most effective without consideration of his cap hit. Brooks Orpik made $5.5 million as a 5D in their Cup winning year and the year before, for example. No reason Backstrom can't take a lesser on-ice role despite it not matching up with his salary in the same way Orpik did.
 

Langway

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Seems clear they will force feed Backstrom into the top-6 at C to start as they should for his salary.
Yet he played less than Dowd at even-strength so not so much. Part of it was hugging a one-goal lead in the third period and his penalty but it's unrealistic to not ease him back in given how unprecedented a recovery it is. There's a respect factor at play and giving him every chance to succeed but they've also got to be realistic about it. It's probably why Eller will remain as a hedge to go along with Dowd later in games when holding leads. Expecting immediate ROI in the realm of what he's earning isn't happening and isn't realistic. It is what it is and there's not a great deal they're going to be able to do about it. I'd wager he'll be better and faster than last season but overall it's a tricky mix between him and Oshie as two aging vets that present pace issues in an ever-faster league.

The only way out at the moment may be a Mantha-Backstrom-Oshie third scoring line. Feed them softer match-ups and let them eat and gain confidence. I don't know if there's another answer as-is.
 
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RedRocking

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Different roles, positions, expectations….Eller to Mantha is not an Apple to Apple comparison. Equal standards as you’re suggesting are never really fully applied in sports….
The Eller hate has become a bit ridiculous imo. Take out Lavi’s dubious deployments in 3v3 hockey, and Eller is fulfilling his role just fine.

I’m more mad at someone like Kuzy, who is underperforming his role (despite the random assists he piles up). Or Mantha, obviously. To me, most nights Eller is doing exactly what his role requires. Don’t get me wrong, if we had a better option at 3C, like a little more experienced Protas, that would be great and I’d be all for it.

But, for right now, Eller is what we have for a solid possession/defensive line that occasionally scores. I don’t think they will try Nick in that kinda role, so it’s hard to see how Eller gets sent to the bench, unless they want to go for a different type of 3rd line.
 

CapitalsCupReality

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The Eller hate has become a bit ridiculous imo. Take out Lavi’s dubious deployments in 3v3 hockey, and Eller is fulfilling his role just fine.

I’m more mad at someone like Kuzy, who is underperforming his role (despite the random assists he piles up). Or Mantha, obviously. To me, most nights Eller is doing exactly what his role requires. Don’t get me wrong, if we had a better option at 3C, like a little more experienced Protas, that would be great and I’d be all for it.

But, for right now, Eller is what we have for a solid possession/defensive line that occasionally scores. I don’t think they will try Nick in that kinda role, so it’s hard to see how Eller gets sent to the bench, unless they want to go for a different type of 3rd line.
It’s pretty crazy, but year after year, there‘s always a whipping boy. I’m with you, he’s fine, but I’d take an upgrade that fits the identity of a Lavi 3rd line.

Kuzy is more fun and lovable I guess.
 
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CapitalsCupReality

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Yet he played less than Dowd at even-strength so not so much. Part of it was hugging a one-goal lead in the third period and his penalty but it's unrealistic to not ease him back in given how unprecedented a recovery it is. There's a respect factor at play and giving him every chance to succeed but they've also got to be realistic about it. It's probably why Eller will remain as a hedge to go along with Dowd later in games when holding leads. Expecting immediate ROI in the realm of what he's earning isn't happening and isn't realistic. It is what it is and there's not a great deal they're going to be able to do about it. I'd wager he'll be better and faster than last season but overall it's a tricky mix between him and Oshie as two aging vets that present pace issues in an ever-faster league.

The only way out at the moment may be a Mantha-Backstrom-Oshie third scoring line. Feed them softer match-ups and let them eat and gain confidence. I don't know if there's another answer as-is.
Oh now you want to suggest limited ice time means he’s not being forced into a top-6 role considering his linemates? So yeah…..so much.

It’s the 1st game….are you really drawing any meaningful conclusions?

Personally, im not looking forward to seeing 19/77 forming 2/3 of the slowest (and very expensive) 3rd line in the NHL. If it has to come to that eventually, fine, but let it play out by trying different combos first IMO.
 
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Jags

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how can you possibly think cap hit doesn’t have anything to do with it? He’s the 2nd highest paid player on the team. They don‘t want him in a 3rd line role, they don’t see him in a 3rd line role longterm (and I suspect neither does Backstrom), so they will battle test him in the top-6 first and adjust accordingly. They need to have an idea of a path forward with him as soon as possible IMO. This outcome will impact their direction heading into the trade deadline and the off-season.

I get where you're coming from. I really do. But the status fans associate with line assignments is mostly a fan and American press thing. This season our middle-6 lines play similar minutes and roles because we found ourselves with a shitload of talented wings. There's a difference in zone starts, but zone starts can be solved entirely by just winning faceoffs.

Forcing Nick into a 1st-line role, juggling even strength deployments throughout the lineup because they didn't want him playing 18+ minutes was a mess. And it showed, cuz we couldn't get anything going offensively.

Meanwhile, 3C plays the right amount of minutes and alongside the talent to excel at either end. 3C would be no more a "demotion" than 3W was for Oshie. It's just where he fits best at the moment. There's zero shame in that. Nick is a team guy, the team had been playing well, so playing in a spot where he gets the right minutes, is a good fit, and doesn't disrupt a team that's been playing outstanding lately shouldn't be an issue at all.
 

CapitalsCupReality

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If Backstrom can't outplay Strome or Kuznetsov at center but is a perfectly good 3C why wouldn't that be fine? If they're going in with an attitude of top 6 or bust then they are failing the rest of the team IMO.

It's a lot of money for a 3C but this isn't some UFA they signed. It's a franchise legend who got paid as a reward for past performance after years of being underpaid. He should get the minutes where he is most effective without consideration of his cap hit. Brooks Orpik made $5.5 million as a 5D in their Cup winning year and the year before, for example. No reason Backstrom can't take a lesser on-ice role despite it not matching up with his salary in the same way Orpik did.
No….not longterm. Not at his price. If he’s a “perfectly good“ 3C, Strome won’t be outplaying him by much and I suspect they’ll put Backstrom there anyway if it’s close.

But let’s give Backstrom that chance before freaking out after one game, because Backstrom at 3C is not his most effective spot IMO.
 
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CapitalsCupReality

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I get where you're coming from. I really do. But the status fans associate with line assignments is mostly a fan and American press thing. This season our middle-6 lines play similar minutes and roles because we found ourselves with a shitload of talented wings. There's a difference in zone starts, but zone starts can be solved entirely by just winning faceoffs.

Forcing Nick into a 1st-line role, juggling even strength deployments throughout the lineup because they didn't want him playing 18+ minutes was a mess. And it showed, cuz we couldn't get anything going offensively.

Meanwhile, 3C plays the right amount of minutes and alongside the talent to excel at either end. 3C would be no more a "demotion" than 3W was for Oshie. It's just where he fits best at the moment. There's zero shame in that. Nick is a team guy, the team had been playing well, so playing in a spot where he gets the right minutes, is a good fit, and doesn't disrupt a team that's been playing outstanding lately shouldn't be an issue at all.
we can‘t “just win faceoffs“ with the snap of a finger Lol…


forcing Backstrom into a Laviolette 3rd line role is a recipe for failure. I would not have had him with Ovy and Sheary myself, but in Kuzy’s current spot on the 2nd…but heck, try it all. I expect they’re going to. If 19/77 can not appear stuck in quicksand together, it’s good by me.
 
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Jags

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we can “just win faceoffs“ with the snap of a finger Lol…

Come on. That's not remotely what I was saying and you know it. Zone start swings aren't the end of the world. And yes, a defensive zone start can turn into possession by winning the faceoff. Not saying that winning a faceoff is easy, just that winning one has that obvious effect.

No….not longterm. Not at his price. If he’s a “perfectly good“ 3C, Strome won’t be outplaying him by much and I suspect they’ll put Backstrom there anyway if it’s close.

But let’s give Backstrom that chance before freaking out after one game, because Backstrom at 3C is not his most effective spot IMO.

I agree with all of this. Not long term, maybe not the absolute best fit, no reason to freak out just yet. 100% on board with all of that.

But in that short term, it would make sense to preserve a top 6 that had been playing very well and instead tinker with a 3rd line that doesn't move the needle much one way or the other. There's been no identity to that line all year.

I agree that the Eller hate is overblown. I don't hate Lars Eller one bit. My point all year is that he isn't the fit for our 3rd line that he once was because we've found ourselves with offensive talent on those wings that he's ill-equipped to leverage. Our changes in personnel made him a less ideal fit. His play this year has been better than last year otherwise.

Now that we're healthy, the best personnel we have to construct a true checking 3rd line (Protas, NAK) don't make the cut, and the guys that do are far better suited for offensive roles. And given that we have one of the best 4th lines in the league that can eat minutes and check anyone, the pressure is off the 3rd to be limited to that identity.
 

Hivemind

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I met Semin a few times at the big fan events. Super nice, but also obviously extremely introverted. He avoided attention and the press like the plague, and he seemed to struggle with the language more as a result. But if you followed him between seasons and when he left for the KHL he was no more apt to talk to the press than he was here. They labeled him a quiet leader. Our press had nothing to work with so they just filled in the blanks and he became Alex The Enigma.

So when the "We're going to build a 2nd line around Semin" era began and lasted for years because GMGM couldn't find a 2C to save his life, Semin checked out. He had every right to be frustrated. He was a creative genius with the puck playing with linemates that couldn't keep up. His attitude left a lot to be desired for sure, but there's nothing enigmatic about a guy who's frustrated for reasons that are plain as day.

We tell a similar story in DC about Jagr; that those were just the years he decided to play worse. And just like Semin, while there's certainly some truth there with regard to his attitude, we also did jack shit to cater to or seriously leverage his abilities. Both guys struggled here for plenty of valid reasons. Attitude and drive were definitely part of it, but giving them more to work with would have helped.

So if Mantha is jaded for similar reasons, he should get over it because he doesn't have the skills to make dealing with this shit worth it. The similarities end with his ceiling.
Big big disagree with the Jagr and Semin comparisons.

Semin cared, he just had a reputation issue (in multiple respects). There was Western media shyness bit you already touched on, but he also tended to mostly congregate with the Russian players in the locker room, and also had a reputation for stick penalties with the referees. He would sometimes work miracles on the ice, but due to his reputation, the rest of the time he wasn't working miracles he was percieved to be loafing. His aggressive stick work began drawing penalties, and then those penalties were also classified as lazy play (although his defensive stick work was anything but lazy, and he was actually an excellent penalty killer - at one point he had as many SHG for as PPG against during a 2 season stretch). Without much rapport with reporters or even factions in the locker room, the reputations he got stuck and spread.

Jagr, on the other hand, absolutely did loaf it in Washington. He went from being a 121 point player in the year before joining the Capitals to player who would never score more than 79 points in a season for the Capitals (with his best pace being 93 points over a full season). He then returned to a 54G, 123P form after the lock-out in New York. Claiming Washington "did jack shit to cater or seriously leverage his abilities" is absolutely incorrect. After Jagr's first season in DC, the Capitals went out and got Robert Lang, who had been Jagr's center in Pittsburgh in the post-Lemiuex years. (And it's not like his center in his first year in DC was a sack of potatoes - it was Adam Oates.) Lang did well enough in DC that by the time of the firesale, he was not just leading the Capitals in scoring (29 points ahead of Jagr), but leading the entire NHL (Lang became the first player in NHL history to be traded while leading the league in points). Lang would fetch a fortune for the Capitals - in the form of Tomas Fleischmann, a 2004 1st round pick (Mike Green), and a 2006 4th round pick. The fact that Lang's return was so much more impressive than Jagr's (pending UFA Anson Carter - and that's it) speaks volumes regarding how both player's were perceived at the time. Jagr was a terrible contract, even for a league that was still without a salary cap at the time (and most knew was likely facing salary reductions in the coming labor deal). He was nothing more than a salary dump.

Beyond just Lang, the Capitals had plenty more for Jagr to work with. They had a future-HoF center for Jagr in his first season, in Adam Oates. They had two premiere powerplay threats in the league to compliment him, Peter Bondra and Sergei Gonchar. They had a checking line anchored by Steve Konowalchuk and Jeff Halpern to handle the difficult match-ups and heavy lifting deployments. They had won the division in each of the past two seasons. It wasn't a bunch of scrubs.

If going out and getting Jagr's preferred center, who he had past chemistry with, after he didn't click with one of the best playmakers in NHL history isn't "doing jack shit to seriously leverage Jagr's abilities" I don't know what is.

f*** Jagr, always and forever.
 

DWGie26

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Here is what is going on:

* We are finally healthy and as such we have like 18 NHL caliber forwards - only 12 can play
* Good players have to sit or go through waivers - still a good problem to have
* Mantha has not been playing well - he is first to sit
* Backstrom (and Wilson) are back - Top 6 impact players - they are going to play in the top 6
* It’s one game - A lot of it is feel good with NB19 playing with OV on first line
* Need to sort out chemistry - not like Mantha is going to be benched the rest of the season or that NB19 is going to be 1C rest of the way - things will change

It is going to take some time. Seems a bit “wonky” right now because we were winning and you hate to break that up. So yeah, now we need to go through the chemistry finding exercise again. I hate that, but I’ll trade it for getting Backstrom and Wilson back. This is good news!
 

DWGie26

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A few years ago, the line roles really changed from Top 6, defensive line, and checking line. That’s dead now. today you have a top 9 comprised of a top line, two middle 6 lines, and defensive 4th line (which if good can chip in goals).

We have: Top line which always starts with OV. A second line which ideally brings a lot of speed and change of pace. A third offensive line which for us is a veteran/smart/savvy line who can put pucks in the net while being responsible as well, and a 4th line that is just hard to play against.

So what someone above said (maybe @Jags). There really isn’t a difference between 2nd and 3rd line. Just about chemistry, So Backstrom on third line is fine. I like Mantha/Mojo - Backstrom - Oshie). That is a damn good line. Some will say it is too expensive for third line. Who cares. You just have to fit it all under the 82.5M cap which we have done.

And when JC74 comes back, there is no Cap issue. We’ll just have to move out a player on 23 man roster.
 

SecretaryofDefense5

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Ovechkin/Strome/Sheary - Sheary's been getting it done on this line, and he and Strome aren't overly in "Get it to Ovi" mode, which is good. See if they can keep it going.

Mantha/Kuznetsov/Wilson - Size on the wings, 3 guys that can shoot, good balance of speed and finish, defensively responsible wings. Mantha and Kuznetsov need to resist the urge to make that "one more pass" and just bury a few to get back on track.

Milano/Backstrom/Oshie - Backstrom and Oshie aren't slow, but they like to slow the game down. Wouldn't be good to line Nick up with two speedsters, and both he and TJ have the vision and touch to spring Milano when the opportunity arises. This could be a good combo.

Johansson/Dowd/Hathaway - Mojo could complement 26 and 21 well. Use Eller if you must, but injuries will probably force that regardless. This could be a good line, and Wilson should be able to pick up some PK slack once he gets his legs under him.

Maybe swap Milano and Mantha. Mantha might click more on the 3rd with Nick at C.
These should be the lines. Make it so.
 

Drakon

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That’s not all that fair. Let’s look at the teams record this year with the money man games lost in the NHL.

You think that’s by luck? Or accident?

Come on man
I think it's entirely by necessity. He doesn't have the options, so he had to use what was given to him by GMBM. When he's given choices, he seems to screw it up a lot.
 

DWGie26

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this is interesting. I’m encouraged by Manthas response. he knows what he needs to do. We heard very similar from Milano when he got signed and sent to Hershey. That he know what he needed to do and was going to do it. Look at Milano now.

I don’t suspect we’ll see Mantha in the lineup until the Caps lose a game or someone gets hurt. But suspect we’ll see a different Mantha when he gets the chance. having a deep lineup is going to be healthy!

778AB7F9-59EA-4A6A-969B-C63E4A1C10A8.jpeg
 

Calicaps

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this is interesting. I’m encouraged by Manthas response. he knows what he needs to do. We heard very similar from Milano when he got signed and sent to Hershey. That he know what he needed to do and was going to do it. Look at Milano now.

I don’t suspect we’ll see Mantha in the lineup until the Caps lose a game or someone gets hurt. But suspect we’ll see a different Mantha when he gets the chance. having a deep lineup is going to be healthy!

View attachment 632857
OK. Message received. But this CANNOT be the first time he's heard this. I guess we'll see if he can actually deliver on this lesson.
 
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Ridley Simon

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Mantha is *finally* playing in a big boys game. His time in Detroit was never really “serious”. The team stunk and he was one of their top talents. So he played, hard or not, it didn’t matter much to the outcome. They lost.

Now?

It matters. Loaf it — and watch the team win anyways. He’s not needed in the way that he was before, and it’s a winning program.

Totally different scene than Detroit, and some people mature late. Some not at all.

We will see which one Mantha is
 

HTFN

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Mantha is *finally* playing in a big boys game. His time in Detroit was never really “serious”. The team stunk and he was one of their top talents. So he played, hard or not, it didn’t matter much to the outcome. They lost.

Now?

It matters. Loaf it — and watch the team win anyways. He’s not needed in the way that he was before, and it’s a winning program.

Totally different scene than Detroit, and some people mature late. Some not at all.

We will see which one Mantha is
agreed, but at the same time my cynical side says "what are you going to do, give the press rope to hang you with?"

Would love to see a 24/7 ass-busting but I'd imagine with Mantha the learning curve has a longer arc to it, and I've been a Mantha proponent. I'm actually a little more on team "use him how he's best" ala Kessel than trying to break him into something he can't be. Shit, that's what they do with Ovechkin and it's hard to argue with the results, they should be making a mini-version on the second line.
 
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Ridley Simon

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agreed, but at the same time my cynical side says "what are you going to do, give the press rope to hang you with?"

Would love to see a 24/7 ass-busting but I'd imagine with Mantha the learning curve has a longer arc to it, and I've been a Mantha proponent. I'm actually a little more on team "use him how he's best" ala Kessel than trying to break him into something he can't be. Shit, that's what they do with Ovechkin and it's hard to argue with the results, they should be making a mini-version on the second line.
I agree with the need to use him more appropriately. I was a huge fan of the trade when it happened, and a big believer in Mantha. Big. I also think they’ve played him on his off-side wing for far too long.

I’d personally like to see him play w MaJo and Backstrom.
 
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