Speculation: Caps Roster General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2022-23 Season Part 3: Drop the puck!

[CapitalsCupReality]

The mudding was him being on the 4th line, but was away and didn't get to add it. But really, it's just dumb all around. He doesn't need a wake up, he needs proper deployments.

This is kinda dumb though, it's like saying wins are the only thing that matters with Goalies. If you just stapled Wilson to the 3rd and 4th line, he's not putting up those numbers either even with PP time.

As I said earlier; it's just like being mad that your sports car sucks off road.

100% disagree…Mantha needs to raise his game also.

 

[YippieKaey]

The mudding was him being on the 4th line, but was away and didn't get to add it. But really, it's just dumb all around. He doesn't need a wake up, he needs proper deployments.

This is kinda dumb though, it's like saying wins are the only thing that matters with Goalies. If you just stapled Wilson to the 3rd and 4th line, he's not putting up those numbers either even with PP time.

As I said earlier; it's just like being mad that your sports car sucks off road.

Wilson did start on the 4th line, then worked his way up the lineup because he provided other things than offense. Mantha took the opposite direction. Not by coincidence in my opinion. Mantha is not a sports car, he's just a regular car that looks like one.

 

[Brian23]

Wilson did start on the 4th line, then worked his way up the lineup because he provided other things than offense. Mantha took the opposite direction. Not by coincidence in my opinion. Mantha is not a sports car, he's just a regular car that looks like one.

What? That's an apples to oranges comparison that makes no sense. Wilson was a 19 year old just making his way into the NHL, and he wasn't that good right away. The whole talk his first year was that he wasn't ready for the NHL game if they wanted him to be an offensive top 6 guy. Mantha, on the other hand, is a 6 or 7 year veteran, who's one of their leading EV producers, and he's being given plugger deployments.

Okay, then he's a regular car. The guy who thinks that's a tractor and is trying to use it as such, and seemingly getting mad when it sucks at it, is still being an idiot.

If Mantha was 5'10 180 we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

 

[YippieKaey]

What? That's an apples to oranges comparison that makes no sense. Wilson was a 19 year old just making his way into the NHL, and he wasn't that good right away. The whole talk his first year was that he wasn't ready for the NHL game if they wanted him to be an offensive top 6 guy. Mantha, on the other hand, is a 6 or 7 year veteran, who's one of their leading EV producers, and he's being given plugger deployments.

Okay, then he's a regular car. The guy who thinks that's a tractor and is trying to use it as such, and seemingly getting mad when it sucks at it, is still being an idiot.

If Mantha was 5'10 180 we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

No because then he wouldn't be paid 5.7 mil. He's being paid for expectations, not production. He was healthy scratched at times in Detroit aswell. I doubt that's a coincidence.

 

[Brian23]

He's being paid for expectations, not production.

 

[YippieKaey]

View attachment 632360

Let's put it this way then.

Mantha right now is 215 in points per game played (all positions). His salary is the 151th highest (all positions). Obviously not a perfect metric but other forwards around him are:

Trocheck, Copp, Hyman, Oshie, Mangiapane, Cam Atkinson, Jonathan Huberdeau.

All those players provide significantly more than Mantha does.

 

[Brian23]

Trocheck

13 points on the PP.

Copp

2 points on the PP, but only only 21 on the season.

Hyman

17 points on the powerplay.

Oshie

6 points on the powerplay.

Mangiapane

1 point, but 17 points on the year. Dunno how you're comparing that to Mantha, but he's also playing almost 3 more minutes a night.

Cam Atkinson

5 points on the powerplay.

Jonathan Huberdeau

10 points on the power play.

So if Mantha had 5 extra power play points this year (which seems conservative for the people he'd play with, and the "contemporaries" you listed), and had 28 points this year would we be having this discussion?

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

No because then he wouldn't be paid 5.7 mil. He's being paid for expectations, not production. He was healthy scratched at times in Detroit aswell. I doubt that's a coincidence.

We would be having this discussion because of his salary you are right, but he is paid to produce, not expectations.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

13 points on the PP.

2 points on the PP, but only only 21 on the season.

17 points on the powerplay.

6 points on the powerplay.

1 point, but 17 points on the year. Dunno how you're comparing that to Mantha, but he's also playing almost 3 more minutes a night.

5 points on the powerplay.

10 points on the power play.

So if Mantha had 5 extra power play points this year (which seems conservative for the people he'd play with, and the "contemporaries" you listed), and had 28 points this year would we be having this discussion?

For 5.7, I expect 25+g/~60 pts. I still think some people are making noise if he doesn’t hit those numbers yes.

 

[Jags]

Mantha right now is 215 in points per game played (all positions). His salary is the 151th highest (all positions).

His point is that Mantha only plays at even strength. When weighed for even strength points, he moves up from 215 to 85. That's good, especially given his deployments this year.

Him not getting PP time isn't his fault. He's just not a fit for what we do on PP1, and our PP2 doesn't play much, so he wouldn't be getting many points there, either.

So if he only plays at evens and his EVP is 85th overall despite dodgy deployments, what's the problem?

Saying that he isn't earning his money because our PP design makes him an odd man out isn't his fault.

If the entire issue is his performance over the last 10 games or so, I'd still argue he hasn't been our worst forward. Eller definitely has his good days, but in a world where I'm choosing between Eller at C, Strome at wing, and Mantha in the bleachers versus Mantha at 2LW, 19/92/17 playing center between a very talented wing group, and Eller in the bleachers, Eller is manning the nacho cart that day.

 

[YippieKaey]

His point is that Mantha only plays at even strength. When weighed for even strength points, he moves up from 215 to 85. That's good, especially given his deployments this year.

Him not getting PP time isn't his fault. He's just not a fit for what we do on PP1, and our PP2 doesn't play much, so he wouldn't be getting many points there, either.

So if he only plays at evens and his EVP is 85th overall despite dodgy deployments, what's the problem?

Saying that he isn't earning his money because our PP design makes him a poor fit there isn't his fault.

If the entire issue is his performance over the last 10 games or so, I'd still argue he hasn't been our worst forward. Eller definitely has his good days, but in a world where I'm choosing between Eller at C, Strome at wing, and Mantha in the bleachers versus Mantha at 2LW, 19/92/17 playing center between a very talented wing group, and Eller in the bleachers, Eller is manning the nacho cart that day.

All i know is if i was Mantha and i had gotten healthy scratched by two different coaches i would start asking myself why.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

His point is that Mantha only plays at even strength. When weighed for even strength points, he moves up from 215 to 85. That's good, especially given his deployments this year.

Him not getting PP time isn't his fault. He's just not a fit for what we do on PP1, and our PP2 doesn't play much, so he wouldn't be getting many points there, either.

So if he only plays at evens and his EVP is 85th overall despite dodgy deployments, what's the problem?

Saying that he isn't earning his money because our PP design makes him an odd man out isn't his fault.

If the entire issue is his performance over the last 10 games or so, I'd still argue he hasn't been our worst forward. Eller definitely has his good days, but in a world where I'm choosing between Eller at C, Strome at wing, and Mantha in the bleachers versus Mantha at 2LW, 19/92/17 playing center between a very talented wing group, and Eller in the bleachers, Eller is manning the nacho cart that day.

He could certainly be outplaying one of the other PP options and earn time, so “fault” isn’t the right term, but he’s not forcing the staff to incorporate him by playing fantastic either. For me, he’s pretty decent, but not delivering a 5.7 mil performance. He’s a bad fit here you’re right.

 

[Jags]

He could certainly be outplaying one of the other PP options and earn time

Where? You think they're going to completely redesign the power play for him?

There's no place for a left-shot forward unless he unseats the distributor below the goal line, and he's not the guy for that. 3 guys ahead of him there.

So we're paying for a guy to produce at evens, which he does. If you want more than 45 EVP from a 3rd-liner (especially given the staggering offensive prowess of our 3C), you've bumped your head.

I don't mind the scratch. Maybe they're trying to fire him up. Who knows? But the stats don't back up this travesty you're describing.

All i know is if i was Mantha and i had gotten healthy scratched by two different coaches i would start asking myself why.

And if I were the Caps and I'd lost a shitload of talent to these types of lines in the sand -- always the stick, never the carrot -- I would maybe buy a few carrots...

 

[YippieKaey]

Where? You think they're going to completely redesign the power play for him?

There's no place for a left-shot forward unless he unseats the distributor below the goal line, and he's not the guy for that. 3 guys ahead of him there.

So we're paying for a guy to produce at evens, which he does. If you want more than 45 EVP from a 3rd-liner (especially given the staggering offensive prowess of our 3C), you've bumped your head.

I don't mind the scratch. Maybe they're trying to fire him up. Who knows? But the stats don't back up this travesty you're describing.



And if I were the Caps and I'd lost a shitload of talent to these types of lines in the sand -- always the stick, never the carrot -- I would maybe buy a few carrots...

The Caps have been a pretty successful team for the last 15 years or so. Im not saying you're wrong, but this has happened before with Mantha. Now if his cap hit was 2-3 mil that'd be a different discussion, but 5.7 gets you a real good player in this league and the last thing this team needs is a coasting winger with high skill and low effort. Unless the skill is like Semin level, which it isn't in his case.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Where? You think they're going to completely redesign the power play for him?

There's no place for a left-shot forward unless he unseats the distributor below the goal line, and he's not the guy for that. 3 guys ahead of him there.

So we're paying for a guy to produce at evens, which he does. If you want more than 45 EVP from a 3rd-liner (especially given the staggering offensive prowess of our 3C), you've bumped your head.

I don't mind the scratch. Maybe they're trying to fire him up. Who knows? But the stats don't back up this travesty you're describing.



And if I were the Caps and I'd lost a shitload of talent to these types of lines in the sand -- always the stick, never the carrot -- I would maybe buy a few carrots...

I’m describing a “travesty”….wtf are you seeing? I’ve not been one of the Mantha complainers and have previously acknowledged his questionable deployment. I also acknowledge his shortcomings.

 

[Jags]

I’m describing a “travesty”

Sorry about that. Watching both games and got mixed up in my replies.

So all that stuff about him being the odd man out on the PP stands, but not that last part where I put my foot in my mouth. (This is why they say stuff tastes like feet. Ptui.)

He's getting a tough shake here. It's on him to raise his game, but I still wish we were seeing this type of discipline applied more evenly. I don't think Strome can do his thing at wing, we've got a good wing on the bench, and a center that isn't moving the needle in any phase.

 

[Jags]

Ovechkin/Strome/Sheary - Sheary's been getting it done on this line, and he and Strome aren't overly in "Get it to Ovi" mode, which is good. See if they can keep it going.

Mantha/Kuznetsov/Wilson - Size on the wings, 3 guys that can shoot, good balance of speed and finish, defensively responsible wings. Mantha and Kuznetsov need to resist the urge to make that "one more pass" and just bury a few to get back on track.

Milano/Backstrom/Oshie - Backstrom and Oshie aren't slow, but they like to slow the game down. Wouldn't be good to line Nick up with two speedsters, and both he and TJ have the vision and touch to spring Milano when the opportunity arises. This could be a good combo.

Johansson/Dowd/Hathaway - Mojo could complement 26 and 21 well. Use Eller if you must, but injuries will probably force that regardless. This could be a good line, and Wilson should be able to pick up some PK slack once he gets his legs under him.

Maybe swap Milano and Mantha. Mantha might click more on the 3rd with Nick at C.

 

[Calicaps]

Ovechkin/Strome/Sheary - Sheary's been getting it done on this line, and he and Strome aren't overly in "Get it to Ovi" mode, which is good. See if they can keep it going.

Mantha/Kuznetsov/Wilson - Size on the wings, 3 guys that can shoot, good balance of speed and finish, defensively responsible wings. Mantha and Kuznetsov need to resist the urge to make that "one more pass" and just bury a few to get back on track.

Milano/Backstrom/Oshie - Backstrom and Oshie aren't slow, but they like to slow the game down. Wouldn't be good to line Nick up with two speedsters, and both he and TJ have the vision and touch to spring Milano when the opportunity arises. This could be a good combo.

Johansson/Dowd/Hathaway - Mojo could complement 26 and 21 well. Use Eller if you must, but injuries will probably force that regardless. This could be a good line, and Wilson should be able to pick up some PK slack once he gets his legs under him.

Maybe swap Milano and Mantha. Mantha might click more on the 3rd with Nick at C.

Mantha did very well with 19 and 77 in his first few weeks with the Caps before the whole team fell apart. He's never recaptured that fire. Not sure if that combo could rekindle it, but if Nicky's really healthy, than, I'd consider trying that.

 

[Raikkonen]

trade from surplus (F) to get solid D

1) offense should be OK anyway
2) there are too many expensive forwards, some of them aren't of high workrates and/or speed

3) gus is questionable defender for playoffs imho
4) if Carlson is out for long they need more D to get in playoffs first

5) not sure Jensen will stay, having another option won't hurt

that's so logical that I'm confident gmbm will do just that

Backstrom is still slow

if he can handle another season he should be 3c plus special teams

keep strome

 

[DWGie26]

Ovechkin/Strome/Sheary - Sheary's been getting it done on this line, and he and Strome aren't overly in "Get it to Ovi" mode, which is good. See if they can keep it going.

Mantha/Kuznetsov/Wilson - Size on the wings, 3 guys that can shoot, good balance of speed and finish, defensively responsible wings. Mantha and Kuznetsov need to resist the urge to make that "one more pass" and just bury a few to get back on track.

Milano/Backstrom/Oshie - Backstrom and Oshie aren't slow, but they like to slow the game down. Wouldn't be good to line Nick up with two speedsters, and both he and TJ have the vision and touch to spring Milano when the opportunity arises. This could be a good combo.

Johansson/Dowd/Hathaway - Mojo could complement 26 and 21 well. Use Eller if you must, but injuries will probably force that regardless. This could be a good line, and Wilson should be able to pick up some PK slack once he gets his legs under him.

Maybe swap Milano and Mantha. Mantha might click more on the 3rd with Nick at C.

I like these lines. But for right now (next game), this lineup won so I’m not changing any personnel. Just the lines.

OV-Strome-Sheary (best first line we have had this year)
Milano-Kuzy-Wilson (speed kills)
Mojo-Backstrom-Oshie (strong veteran line)
Eller-Dowd-Hathaway (Eller needs to be able to play 4LW or sit)

And keep dee pairs. Alexyev looking better but he needs a few straight games to see if he can be the guy.

 

[Jags]

3) gus is questionable defender for playoffs imho

I'm definitely not opposed to a trade for a D, but one defenseman isn't going to shore us up enough to try to win defensively.

Remember this scene in Rocky Balboa?...



This is how I see our postseason chances. One trade won't build us a defensive fortress. We're going to have to clear lanes for Kuemper to see what's coming then focus on transition, playing to the strengths of our defensive personnel.

Our offensive personnel is built to score. They can defend, they can be physical, but this year will be a real, genuine puncher's chance. We'll need goals from deep in the lineup and from the blueline. We don't have enough speed to run with the younger teams, so play between the blues will be important, but we're sunk if we don't score.

 

[Langway]

Nic Dowd eh? Huh.

 

[GRob83]

Mantha needs to work harder, plain and simple. Raise your hand if you had Nic Dowd being 2nd on the team in Even Strength Goals halfway through the season. Work ethic is the clear difference.

 

[Brian23]

For 5.7, I expect 25+g/~60 pts. I still think some people are making noise if he doesn’t hit those numbers yes.

Then the problem is in your expectations and you need to re-evaluate those because I'd bet you'd find most of the people who'd fit that criteria are getting ample PP time and would line right up with Mantha as a even strength contributor.

 

[twabby]

Work ethic is the clear difference.

Shooting 28% at 5v5 doesn’t hurt either!