Speculation: Caps General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2020 Offseason Pt. 1

[HTFN]

You're basically talking about maybe 20-25 guys in the NHL who are point per game players and 30+ goal scorers, nevermind whether they float or play defense, or show up in the playoffs. It's a small club to start with. And most enjoy significant power play opportunities to pad their stats.

Vrana can't crack PP1 because of who's in front of him, otherwise he'd probably hit those 30/80 marks pretty easily. His PPP/60 the last 2 years is better than Oshie and Ovechkin, believe it or not.

Vrana also tallied his 25 goals and and 27 assists in 69 games with just 14:53 minutes of ice time per game. The only player with more goals and anything even close to that little TOI was Kubalik in CHI (30 goals, 16 assists, 14:22 TOI/g).

Point being, I think your acceptance criteria for Vrana is a bit too high.

It's also way too dramatic and extreme. You can't tell me with a straight face you haven't seen Vrana go into the corners or try to forecheck before. He's not building all that speed and then just hitting the brakes at the top of the circles because he doesn't want to be touched.

 

[g00n]

It's also way too dramatic and extreme. You can't tell me with a straight face you haven't seen Vrana go into the corners or try to forecheck before. He's not building all that speed and then just hitting the brakes at the top of the circles because he doesn't want to be touched.

Oh I know, but I figured there's no point in arguing about that. Nothing short of sitting in the same room going over game film and saying "see, he's backchecking/forechecking/playing D" is going to suffice there.

 

[Empty Goal Net]

The Caps have clear needs, and a hockey trade may be called for, but I'm in favor of giving a new coach some time to fix our 'broken' players.

When the Caps' 'Brain Trust' asks a candidate where you see the team's strengths and weaknesses and what you would to address them, you need a thought-out response covering things like strategy, culture, and steps to address individual players' +s and -s. BMac and whoever else is in the room for those convos (Dickie? Ted?), should be looking for insights and plans regarding fixed assets (every Cap already under contract) and how to fill gaps. Have any of the candidates helped a guy like Kuzy or Vrana turn around his game? Does Gallant's success with a bunch of mostly 2nd liners give him an advantage in this regard?

Which players from their former teams might be candidates for acquisition? The new coach is often familiar with a player or two from his old team that can help the new one.

 

[txpd]

Question. Have the Russo comments been posted here?

 

[maacoshark]

You're basically talking about maybe 20-25 guys in the NHL who are point per game players and 30+ goal scorers, nevermind whether they float or play defense, or show up in the playoffs. It's a small club to start with. And most enjoy significant power play opportunities to pad their stats.

Vrana can't crack PP1 because of who's in front of him, otherwise he'd probably hit those 30/80 marks pretty easily. His PPP/60 the last 2 years is better than Oshie and Ovechkin, believe it or not.

Vrana also tallied his 25 goals and and 27 assists in 69 games with just 14:53 minutes of ice time per game. The only player with more goals and anything even close to that little TOI was Kubalik in CHI (30 goals, 16 assists, 14:22 TOI/g).

Point being, I think your acceptance criteria for Vrana is a bit too high.

I disagree. Some guys aren't great pp guys. I think Vrana is one of those guys. Most of his opportunities come off the rush when he is leaving the defensive zone early and the oppositions defense is caught in the offensive zone. That doesn't happen often when a team is killing a penalty.
And I honestly don't think my expectations are too high for him. If his game us very weak at every other aspect of the game then he better produce offensively.
BTW you still didn't mention another player that fits the criteria. Like I said the only guy I can think of is maybe Bobby Ryan.
I know there are plenty of offensive forwards that have their weaknesses but pretty much all of them have more strengths than Vrana.

 

[Futures Passed]

Question. Have the Russo comments been posted here?

I haven’t seen them posted. You think they’re legit?

 

[Lobodomy]

The Athletic’s Michael Russo says the Capitals turned their bubble experience into a vacation: ‘They had no interest in being there’

 

[maacoshark]

we all know how much you admire Chandler. You left the boards for months after he was traded. Seemingly in mourning about it.

using him as an example of anything taints your argument good sir. As we know you are biased (severely?) for Chandler.

You guys are from the same town in Canada, yes?

We are not from the same town but he did play his junior hockey here. Trotz played here too. So ya I'm a bit bias. I can tell you that Stephenson was by far the best penalty killing forward in the whl at the time.
And for the record I did not leave the board for months because Stephenson was traded.
I was given some time off for having fun with one of the moderators here. And the moderator I was having fun with wasn't the one that gave me the time out.
That was my 2nd time out. I didn't think it deserved a ban. My first ban however. Yup I deserved that. Got into a heated argument with a Leafs fan.
My point about Stephenson wasn't to be bias. I was comparing his and Vrana's playoff numbers because they are very similar. I think Stephenson has one more goal and 2 more points than Vrana. Stephenson also has a slight edge in games played.
I think my real point is that 3 goats and 5 assists in 38 playoff games just doesn't cut it for a guy that is here to produce offensively.

 

[maacoshark]

Not hard to be better at defense than two of the worst defensive forwards in the NHL.

Believe it or not Vrana is worse than both of them. By quite a bit too.

 

[g00n]

I disagree. Some guys aren't great pp guys. I think Vrana is one of those guys. Most of his opportunities come off the rush when he is leaving the defensive zone early and the oppositions defense is caught in the offensive zone. That doesn't happen often when a team is killing a penalty.
And I honestly don't think my expectations are too high for him. If his game us very weak at every other aspect of the game then he better produce offensively.
BTW you still didn't mention another player that fits the criteria. Like I said the only guy I can think of is maybe Bobby Ryan.
I know there are plenty of offensive forwards that have their weaknesses but pretty much all of them have more strengths than Vrana.

The stats don't agree with your take. From before: His PPP/60 the last 2 years is better than Oshie and Ovechkin, believe it or not.

And that's with 1/2 or 1/3 the PP/TOI as the PP1 players.

If you expect a 24 yr old 2nd line winger to be among the top 20 forwards in the game, your expectations are too high.

 

[maacoshark]

How many 80pt players are not on their team's pp1 and how many are not featured players on that pp1?

I don't care if he isn't on the PP. He isn't really a pp specialist. He is better in open ice when he is floating around. Not easy to get odd man rushes when you are on the PP.
My point is if absolutely every other aspect of his game isn't there then he better produce alot more than he is. He does nothing else.
Maybe that will change under a new head coach. I hope so.
I remember alot of people here whining when Trotz would bench Vrana. There was a reason for it and Trotz wasn't wrong to do it. I don't recall Reirden ever benching Vrana for a complete game. I know he has benched him for a long stretch during a game. I believe it happened in one of the playoff games this year. The problem is that Vrana didn't seem to learn from it.
Vrana needs to pick up his game big time. Not just offensively.

 

[maacoshark]

The stats don't agree with your take. From before: His PPP/60 the last 2 years is better than Oshie and Ovechkin, believe it or not.

And that's with 1/2 or 1/3 the PP/TOI as the PP1 players.

If you expect a 24 yr old 2nd line winger to be among the top 20 forwards in the game, your expectations are too high.

Its too small of a sample size to compare him to Ovi. Come on get real.
You are completely missing the point as usual. I don't expect Vrana as a 24 year old to be a top 20 forward. I expect him to be less selfish. Be more responsible defensively. Play with a bit more grit. Learn to forecheck and backcheck. Hit someone. I mean a real hit. I want him to improve his all around game. He doesn't seem to be very interested in doing that.

 

[g00n]

Its too small of a sample size to compare him to Ovi. Come on get real.
You are completely missing the point as usual. I don't expect Vrana as a 24 year old to be a top 20 forward. I expect him to be less selfish. Be more responsible defensively. Play with a bit more grit. Learn to forecheck and backcheck. Hit someone. I mean a real hit. I want him to improve his all around game. He doesn't seem to be very interested in doing that.

Nobody is going to "compare to Ovi", I'm just giving you stats that refute your assertion that Vrana stinks on the PP.

You can say you're not asking Vrana to be top 20, but you're asking him to DO things that are done only by top 20 players.

"I want...."

Ok, you want some things that aren't realistic. Vrana is X and you want him to be Y. Next.

 

[txpd]

I don't care if he isn't on the PP. He isn't really a pp specialist..

He is a left shot forward on a pp that uses exclusively right shot shooters. He is a goal scorer. A pp specialist? He is a shooter. Power plays use shooters. He was 11th in the league in even strenth goals. I am not sure how much more you expect

 

[txpd]

I haven’t seen them posted. You think they’re legit?

All I have to go on is their play and Reirden's attitude.

 

[Carlzner]

zzzzzzzzzzz news story

Every team in the league has had players posting social media footage of them hanging out and enjoying the bubble

What a non story

 

[Empty Goal Net]

zzzzzzzzzzz news story

Every team in the league has had players posting social media footage of them hanging out and enjoying the bubble

What a non story

Not sure what other teams were doing but it's not hard to envision such reports being largely true. These guys played through most of August - it's doubtful many players are poolside in January-February. They did not have planes to catch every few days, no family activities or normal lifestyles. They weren't in a war zone.

The lack of focus began in December.

 

[Kalopsia]

I think my real point is that 3 goats and 5 assists in 38 playoff games just doesn't cut it for a guy that is here to produce offensively.

Datsyuk famously had just 3 goals and 15 points in his first 42 playoff games. From his age 28 season on, he had 39 goals and 98 points in 115 games. Oshie had 5 goals and 9 points in 30 playoff games when he came to the Caps at 29, and has had 22 goals and 48 points in 61 games since then. Bura had 9 goals and 18 points in 56 playoff games for the Caps, and then had 7 goals and 17 points in 15 games for the Avs this year. It's not unusual for a young forward to struggle to produce in his first few postseason runs before figuring it out.

 

[Hivemind]

The Athletic’s Michael Russo says the Capitals turned their bubble experience into a vacation: ‘They had no interest in being there’

These lines were the key takeaway, IMO

A source close to the Capitals, who asked not to be identified, said of Russo’s comment, “it’s BS.” The source explained that the team’s problems were hockey related and not due to how they spent their time in the bubble. “People used to make up stories like these about Ovi all the time. When in doubt, make up a disparaging story about Ovi for clicks.”
Many Capitals players gave a glimpse of what their experience was like at Hotel X on social media, but there was no public evidence of any behavior that seemed abnormal in the bubble.

 

[JayBeagleFanAccount]

Believe it or not Vrana is worse than both of them. By quite a bit too.

Somehow I just dont believe you.

 

[txpd]

Yea, Ovechkin market value is $4.7m. Right. That kills the value of any fancy stats when it says shit like that. Vrana is more valuable than Ovechkin.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Somehow I just dont believe you.

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You think a guy who wins a Conn Smythe, three consecutive Rocket Richard trophies, and at least 2 top ten Hart seasons (in 3 years) can be had for $4.7M? How on Earth did that pass your smell test?!?

I don't know why anyone puts stock in these "1 size fits all" hockey valuation systems. They are all garbage. Idiots see WAR systems for baseball and assume it will easily translate to hockey. It flat out doesn't. It works well in baseball because baseball is largely a 'mano a mano' sport (pitcher vs batter).

Hockey is nothing like that! It includes different systems, different roles, different assignments, opponents, etc. It's a lot to sort through, and nobody has done it successfully.

There is a clueless guy on the main boards who spent countless hours coming up with a WAR system only to conclude that Patrice Bergeron's faceoffs were more valuable than his defensive abilities. If I created a system that spit out that result, I'd conclude that I had utterly wasted my time.

 

[Corby78]

I don’t know what I’m looking at, but it screams “never watched a game” at me.

 

[g00n]

Somehow I just dont believe you.

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[CapitalsCupReality]

Datsyuk famously had just 3 goals and 15 points in his first 42 playoff games. From his age 28 season on, he had 39 goals and 98 points in 115 games. Oshie had 5 goals and 9 points in 30 playoff games when he came to the Caps at 29, and has had 22 goals and 48 points in 61 games since then. Bura had 9 goals and 18 points in 56 playoff games for the Caps, and then had 7 goals and 17 points in 15 games for the Avs this year. It's not unusual for a young forward to struggle to produce in his first few postseason runs before figuring it out.

trouble is, he had some limited postseason success, then 2 years in a row of being whitewashed. He’s seemingly regressed....and that’s worse than just not getting it early in his career.