Speculation: Caps General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2020 Offseason Pt. 1

[txpd]

Ov's contract ask this year is going to be more than $4.7m. Should they let him walk? I mean, we have Vrana afterall

 

[Calicaps]

trouble is, he had some limited postseason success, then 2 years in a row of being whitewashed. He’s seemingly regressed....and that’s worse than just not getting it early in his career.

I'd disagree. "Some limited success" on a team that caught fire and won a Cup isn't indicative of anything long term. On the other hand, Kuzy ran roughshod over the league then fell asleep for 2 years.. that looks like regression. But as other, including you I think, have said, the coaching issue may govern here. They won it all and then didn't have the leadership behind the bench to maintain their commitment and discipline. No conclusions should be drawn about anything until they have a new coach.

 

[maacoshark]

Nobody is going to "compare to Ovi", I'm just giving you stats that refute your assertion that Vrana stinks on the PP.

You can say you're not asking Vrana to be top 20, but you're asking him to DO things that are done only by top 20 players.

"I want...."

Ok, you want some things that aren't realistic. Vrana is X and you want him to be Y. Next.

I'm not really big into stats. I try to judge a player by watching him play. Stats can be deceiving. I've seen Ovi play plenty of crappy games over the years and he still managed to score a couple goals in those games. And it goes the other way around too. I've seen plenty of players play a great game and not show up on the stat sheet.
And for the final time. My expectations are not too high for Vrana. I don't expect him to be a point a game player. But I do expect him to improve the rest of his game and it just isn't happening. He doesn't need to be a Selke type player but he needs to do alot of things better. Is that really too much to ask for?
Like I already said, Trotz was scratching him for a reason. Reirden wouldn't do it. Maybe a new coach will help but if he is unwillingly to put in the effort it takes then maybe he shouldn't be playing in the NHL.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I'd disagree. "Some limited success" on a team that caught fire and won a Cup isn't indicative of anything long term. On the other hand, Kuzy ran roughshod over the league then fell asleep for 2 years.. that looks like regression. But as other, including you I think, have said, the coaching issue may govern here. They won it all and then didn't have the leadership behind the bench to maintain their commitment and discipline. No conclusions should be drawn about anything until they have a new coach.

He produced something previously...irrefutable.

Since then, goose egg...irrefutable.

If you want to give the player absolutely no credit for the Cup year that’s your prerogative, but I think that’s unfair to suggest he only produced because everyone was on a roll that year. IMO he played pretty well overall for a rookie in that scenario.

He’s has however absolutely regressed when the games matter in my eyes the last two years. I’d love to see the argument that holds up to suggest otherwise.

As with Kuzy I’m not convinced it’s only coaching. They’re all about to a boot in their collectives asses....so we’ll see who responds and who wilts.

 

[maacoshark]

He produced something previously...irrefutable.

Since then, goose egg...irrefutable.

If you want to give the player absolutely no credit for the Cup year that’s your prerogative, but I think that’s unfair to suggest he only produced because everyone was on a roll that year. IMO he played pretty well overall for a rookie in that scenario.

He’s has however absolutely regressed when the games matter in my eyes the last two years. I’d love to see the argument that holds up to suggest otherwise.

As with Kuzy I’m not convinced it’s only coaching. They’re all about to a boot in their collectives asses....so we’ll see who responds and who wilts.

Kuzy is another issue. World class talent but he can sure be a flake. Only word I can think of to describe him.

 

[Calicaps]

He produced something previously...irrefutable.

Since then, goose egg...irrefutable.

If you want to give the player absolutely no credit for the Cup year that’s your prerogative, but I think that’s unfair to suggest he only produced because everyone was on a roll that year. IMO he played pretty well overall for a rookie in that scenario.

He’s has however absolutely regressed when the games matter in my eyes the last two years. I’d love to see the argument that holds up to suggest otherwise.

As with Kuzy I’m not convinced it’s only coaching. They’re all about to a boot in their collectives asses....so we’ll see who responds and who wilts.

I don't give him no credit, I just don't know that his trends don't simply mirror the team's, by and large.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I don't give him no credit, I just don't know that his trends don't simply mirror the team's, by and large.

not everyone has been crap individually in the postseason the last two years.

Easy out to blame the coach so much.

Here’s my fearful prediction...

New hardass HC comes in, understandably invigorates team and Vrana goes on to earn a massively painful contract, then he regresses ala 92 after the fire of that HC wears off in 1-2 years.

 

[tenken00]

not everyone has been crap individually in the postseason the last two years.

Easy out to blame the coach so much.

Here’s my fearful prediction...

New hardass HC comes in, understandably invigorates team and Vrana goes on to earn a massively painful contract, then he regresses ala 92 after the fire of that HC wears off in 1-2 years.

Honestly, I can only think of 1 player who played well, or at least well enough, in both the last two postseasons.

 

[Calicaps]

not everyone has been crap individually in the postseason the last two years.

Easy out to blame the coach so much.

Here’s my fearful prediction...

New hardass HC comes in, understandably invigorates team and Vrana goes on to earn a massively painful contract, then he regresses ala 92 after the fire of that HC wears off in 1-2 years.

Not crap, no, but not 2018 quality, except maybe Backs last year and Ovie.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Honestly, I can only think of 1 player who played well, or at least well enough, in both the last two postseasons.

you can try to split hairs....there’s

0 goals, 0 assists, 0 points

Or

anything better


“Played well” wasn’t the bar...

(and I don’t think I’ve accused any Caps players of “playing well” this postseason)

“Complete no show” is the bar in the Vrana discussion the last 2 postseasons.

There were plenty of guys above that bar who showed up, competed hard, but maybe didn’t produce as much or play as well as they could have.

 

[Skrudland2Lomakin]

Babcock will ruin the golden years of Ovechkin and potentially spur the relationship of players with the organization.


You’re hard pressed to find anyone who likes Babcock, even those who won with him describe him as being a miserable POS.


His hockey resume is maybe the most overrated thing in hockey. Gifted a loaded team, only got one Cup and one finals appearance with them, then never past the second round again.



If the team “lost their edge” then trade the players who broke it, the answer is to not hire a guy because his number one trait is that he’s an asshole.



Ted deserves another decade of failure is he makes this choice

 

[tenken00]

you can try to split hairs....there’s

0 goals, 0 assists, 0 points

Or

anything better.

“Played well” wasn’t the bar. “Complete no show” is the bar in the Vrana discussion the last 2 postseasons.

No, I'm not arguing your premise. I actually agree some with it. I just don't think you can use the argument when no one else has really looked good either. I just agree with Calicaps in that we just don't have enough information right now to think that this is who Vrana truly is or not. The same goes for Kuznetsov. Both of their slides have been in the last 2 years (playoffs in Vrana's case, regular season and playoffs in Kuzy's). We especially don't know about Vrana because he is so young.

You are right. It's not all on Reirden, but we need to see how these players respond first to a different voice before making any rash decisions and when we are better informed.

 

[txpd]

If the team “lost their edge” then trade the players who broke it.

Yea...just like that. I dont want Babcock but your chance to win the cup is all tied up in those players you say to trade

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

No, I'm not arguing your premise. I actually agree some with it. I just don't think you can use the argument when no one else has really looked good either. I just agree with Calicaps in that we just don't have enough information right now to think that this is who Vrana truly is or not. The same goes for Kuznetsov. Both of their slides have been in the last 2 years (playoffs in Vrana's case, regular season and playoffs in Kuzy's). We especially don't know about Vrana because he is so young.

You are right. It's not all on Reirden, but we need to see how these players respond first to a different voice before making any rash decisions and when we are better informed.

it’s not as black and white as you’ve been good or bad. Plenty of others didn’t look like dog crap. Couple of these guys should be on notice.....Vrana included.

 

[tenken00]

it’s not as black and white as you’ve been good or bad. Plenty of others didn’t look like dog crap. Couple of these guys should be on notice.....Vrana included.

Oh ya, Vrana should definitely get that memo. And its a contract year for him in a salary cap freeze, so next year is a make or break year for him. Or at least a very important one.

I just hope that Vrana learned some hard lessons this past playoffs. At least in Game 1 he had some type of motor. And then came his bone-headed mistake in Game 2 and he had no motor whatsoever to do anything. He was just absolutely dejected out there for every game after that.

Fine, you made a mistake that cost the team a game. But you cant just sulk out there afterwards. We'll see where he goes from here.

 

[Skrudland2Lomakin]

Yea...just like that. I dont want Babcock but your chance to win the cup is all tied up in those players you say to trade

The team is literally saying that they didn't compete because certain players are complacent and unmotivated after winning a Cup.


So yeah, I don't really know what the alternative is. This league's history is full of absolute studs who never gave enough of a shit to materialize into a consistent force. If you don't give a shit to win because you already have a Cup there isn't a coach or system under the sun that will fix that.


Trade the bums, and rebuild on the fly. If they're "your chance to win a Cup" some other team will see them as that and give value.

 

[TheLegendOfPatPeake]

Chandler has looked great this playoffs for Vegas. Good for him.

 

[txpd]

The team is literally saying that they didn't compete because certain players are complacent and unmotivated after winning a Cup.


So yeah, I don't really know what the alternative is. This league's history is full of absolute studs who never gave enough of a shit to materialize into a consistent force. If you don't give a shit to win because you already have a Cup there isn't a coach or system under the sun that will fix that.


Trade the bums, and rebuild on the fly. If they're "your chance to win a Cup" some other team will see them as that and give value.

If you trade a couple of those players, you will take an immediate step back as y0u hire an expensive new coach and your 2 big stars are basically going year to year as impact players. Your rebuild on the fly could fail. It more likely takes a couple of years to rerack and you have wasted a couple years of Ov.

Or.....you could motivate those players and win now

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

If you trade a couple of those players, you will take an immediate step back as y0u hire an expensive new coach and your 2 big stars are basically going year to year as impact players. Your rebuild on the fly could fail. It more likely takes a couple of years to rerack and you have wasted a couple years of Ov.

Or.....you could motivate those players and win now

so that’s it, the only way is to trade and step back or motivate what you have? No faith in GMBM to make an impactful hockey deal?

 

[Ridley Simon]

Don’t hire B‘cock. Just don’t. And I’m not a hater here. I think he’s built a tremendous resume.

I think you need a driver/mentor. Not a driver/tormentor. Lavi seems the best bet. As I voted. B’cock seems a tormentor. I don’t think that will play. I just don’t.

 

[Skrudland2Lomakin]

I’m not exaggerating when I say I think Babs resume is the most overrated in history. You’d think the guy was second to Scotty Bowman listening to people talk.


Anaheim to the finals is the only impressive thing he’s done. When he took over Detroit they had gone to the playoffs 13 consecutive seasons and were coming off of back-to-back President trophy wins. He took a veteran team, captained by Lidstrom and with 3 future first ballot HoF players (plus guys like Zetterburg and Datsuyk) to win the Cup, and then return (after adding another HoF player the next year.)


Laviolette has the same finals appearance record (1-2) with way less impressive rosters. Gallant has proven he can win in the playoffs with the modern style.


Babcock? He hasn’t gone past round two since 2009.

 

[Hivemind]

Zetterberg and Datsyuk are first ballot Hall of Famers.

 

[Ovechkins Wodka]

I want Lavi but my gut tells me it’s Babcock and I’m ok with him.

 

[TheLegendOfPatPeake]

I want Lavi but my gut tells me it’s Babcock and I’m ok with him.

This. Babcock isn’t my preference but I trust BMac knows what the team needs more than we do. The key will be can an old dog learn new tricks, aka did Babcock learn from Toronto?

 

[txpd]

so that’s it, the only way is to trade and step back or motivate what you have? No faith in GMBM to make an impactful hockey deal?

No absolutes. The rule of thumb is that if you trade the best player you get less back. I would rather motivate Kuznetsov than trade him. I cant imagine trading him and having a better team right away.

I could be suffering a lack of imagination.