OT: Capitals Cinema Club: TV and Movies

CapitalsCupReality

It’s Go Time!!
Feb 27, 2002
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In the process of rewatching Game of Thrones with my wife who has never seen it. It’s such a different experience binging it as opposed to watching it weekly. Daenerys character is so corny after Khal Drogo dies lol. We wrapped up season 7. I can’t wait to see my wife’s disappointment at how shitty the final season and episode are.

Side note: I think season 6 is the best season for the show. So much goes on and there’s just some awesome storytelling to go along with it.
“Shitty” is a massive overstatement IMO. Making it sound like it was a complete waste of time. Hope you’re not inadvertently slanting it for her!

I‘m going to do a rewatch soon, so I will definitely make note to watch for that feel…..
 

hb13xchamps

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“Shitty” is a massive overstatement IMO. Making it sound like it was a complete waste of time. Hope you’re not inadvertently slanting it for her!

I‘m going to do a rewatch soon, so I will definitely make note to watch for that feel…..
Shitty might not be the right word for it, but season 8 was arguably one of, if not the worst season for the show. Take out the beautiful imagery and special effects and you have a big, rushed mess. It’s no secret that the final seasons were rushed. The show runners had a contract to do a Star Wars trilogy at the time when Star Wars was still committed to pumping out a movie a year.

It will be interesting to rewatch it and see if I still feel the same way I did at the time. I’m also interested in the direction George goes now that he’s writing his next book in the series.
 

HTFN

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Feb 8, 2009
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“Shitty” is a massive overstatement IMO. Making it sound like it was a complete waste of time. Hope you’re not inadvertently slanting it for her!

I‘m going to do a rewatch soon, so I will definitely make note to watch for that feel…..
What? It's booty bad. Really, genuinely not good. Honestly season 7 isn't super great either and my memory of them sort of bleeds together at a certain point but, like... the entire world changed. The things that used to have value had no value (little things like travel and getting stabbed in the belly), characters made embarrassing decisions or, say, "forgot" about things that had huge implications and never would have escaped the most basic war council scenes.

Characters being swallowed by hordes of undead in virtually hopeless situations only to cut away and come back to them doing just fine with no explanation, or the embarrassing hype to payoff ratio of the Night King, and that's not even touching the overall resolution of the throne situation. f*** me. It's really not good.

It's not awfully produced television but compared to the body of work that precedes it, there's just not a lot to redeem. A few cool moments to be sure, but the depth and detail is completely gone.
 

CapitalsCupReality

It’s Go Time!!
Feb 27, 2002
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Agree to disagree…..I’m sure on a rewatch I won’t be disappointed in the series enough that any season will stand out as that bad. We’ll see.

In that genre….given the shit that historically has been produced….the production value matters just as much as the story at times IMO. So you can say take away the CGI or whatever…..well I’m not looking for some literary greatness….I’m looking to see dragons burn evil shit….and do it looking great and realistic.

I‘ll come back to this on the rewatch. Been meaning to do it and I have some time over the holidays….
 

CapitalsCupReality

It’s Go Time!!
Feb 27, 2002
66,290
21,270
What? It's booty bad. Really, genuinely not good. Honestly season 7 isn't super great either and my memory of them sort of bleeds together at a certain point but, like... the entire world changed. The things that used to have value had no value (little things like travel and getting stabbed in the belly), characters made embarrassing decisions or, say, "forgot" about things that had huge implications and never would have escaped the most basic war council scenes.

Characters being swallowed by hordes of undead in virtually hopeless situations only to cut away and come back to them doing just fine with no explanation, or the embarrassing hype to payoff ratio of the Night King, and that's not even touching the overall resolution of the throne situation. f*** me. It's really not good.

It's not awfully produced television but compared to the body of work that precedes it, there's just not a lot to redeem. A few cool moments to be sure, but the depth and detail is completely gone.
I’d need more specifics to respond and it’s probably not worth haggling about it until I do my rewatch, but I don’t recall the story falling apart at seemingly every turn like you‘re making it out to have done. Have you done a rewatch? It’s not fresh enough in my mind to get below the surface on plot holes or whatever.
 

HTFN

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I’d need more specifics to respond and it’s probably not worth haggling about it until I do my rewatch, but I don’t recall the story falling apart at seemingly every turn like you‘re making it out to have done. Have you done a rewatch? It’s not fresh enough in my mind to get below the surface on plot holes or whatever.
I can probably either do that or spoiler tag it, I guess, which I might as well do just to keep it simple and explain what I was vague about.

Travel time speaks for itself, and I know it's a simple little nitpick but it used to be something that could cause genuine logistical conflicts or make the viewers think "oh shit, are they even going to get to that in time to impact ____" a number of times and then... just sort of stopped mattering, the teleporter was working overtime.

Daenerys "forgetting" about the Iron Fleet sucks the most ass as a way to cut time. It makes no sense, nobody would forget that, and even if she did at least one advisor would be like "yo what the f*** are we doing about these, like, hundreds of ships that hate you now"

Arya getting gutted by the Waif and diving in a filth river and just sort of coming away fine is... I don't know, superhuman? It defies every other setup to everything in the Game of Thrones world over the seasons because absolutely nobody is coming away fine from that, and the recovery is equally slapdash when it should probably be the priority if you're explaining how that was solved medically.

The war against the Night King and his army kind of sucked. A number of times characters would be trapped in these seemingly unwinnable situations and then cut away for suspense, but when we come back to them they're just sort of... fine now. Like, it's not explained what they did. Nobody set any bombs off or cleared a lot of them with some awesome secret special attack like a live action episode of Dynasty Warriors, they just go from "getting f***ed" to "I'm fine, what's the next scene" and it doubly betrays everything the show originally thrived on and did so well.

Night King just sort of getting killed by a little surprise move by someone with no particular personal investment is weird, and becomes a little more annoying when you compound it with Arya's plot armored arc over the handful of episodes that preceded.

Oh shit, remember when there was that cool white horse moment for her and she concluded the episode, and then immediately it was gone in between episodes with no explanation and the next episode might have actually even started with her? Could be wrong, just remember the second she showed up it was like "where horse"

Bran being king is wildly stupid unless it's the setup for a sinister twist, where his sort of timeless seer persona has a new world order worth fighting against. Even if you can make it make sense, and it's theoretically plausible (I even like book Bran and his story and wouldn't mind what that conclusion could look like) the way it was resolved in the show is so unfortunate.

I kept up with the internet/reddit book following but watched the show pretty fresh from everyone else's opinion and still ended up going "well this.... wasn't good".
 
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Jags

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I'm with CCR. The last 2 seasons were awfully paced and clearly the weakest of the bunch, but the story was fine.

The entire concept -- the actual game of thrones -- was always going to dwindle as pieces came off the board. The key characters in the show are the puppeteers like Littlefinger and Vaerys. The puppets that were made to feel like the center of the show -- Daenerys, Jon Snow, Cersei, Ned Stark, etc. -- were all morons.

So Danny seeming like an idiot after Khal Drago died, just underscored the truth about her character throughout -- that she did exactly what the smartest person whispering in her ear told her to do for the whole show, until the very end when she was on her own and ultimately proved to be a wackjob. Same exact thing with Cersei; real shrewd early when her reduced position required her to be, but the second she got ultimate power and answered to no one her idiocy consumed her. Jon Snow, ever the loyal servant, kept doing what he felt was expected of him until just before the credits rolled on the final episode.

So the show was always going to shift from scheming brilliance to all out war with little intelligence to it at all as more and more of the string-pullers were killed off or made powerless. Left to their own devices, the puppets all quickly destroyed themselves. In the end, the right people survived because they were mostly the honorable ones that weren't out to rule the world. All the egomaniacal powermongers were gone. So those that remained came up with a simple solution the public would swallow and rode off into their respective sunsets.

The story was fine and came to a pretty natural conclusion that was true to most of its characters (I can't think of any glaring misfires there). And the rushed pace had way more to do with poor planning from Season 1 than any of the nonsense about Star Wars contracts.

Early on, the showrunners said they were plotting by season because they were hopeful that Martin would either finish the books or at least plotting (and sharing with them) the rest of the story. That was really stucking fupid. Martin would have been an idiot to write any books while the show was so popular. Let the show come up with a satisfying ending and you can basically just write a more fleshed out adaptation. If the show fails, you have the benefit of seeing what failed, endless online diatribes about what the fans really wanted, and thus a simple roadmap to finish.

So they should have just plotted the show out from the beginning, or at least by season 3 or 4 when it was clear that Martin was just riding the wave and not writing. Actors are typically made to commit to 7 or 8 seasons of a TV show, so they knew from the jump that if the show was successful, that's all the time they'd have. The show would make their cast famous, and famous actors weren't going to keep freezing their asses off playing in the mud in the worst parts of northern Europe for any longer than they had to.

Instead, they slow-played the source material they DID have for way too long. And while the show they made up to that point was really great, it was WAY too big to resolve in a satisfying way in the 15 or so episodes they had left. So the show went into hyperspeed, the pacing sucked out loud, and we got the rushed ending we got. If they'd been realistic and plotted properly, they had plenty of time to tell a fantastic story in the time they had.

So that rushed feeling is the only terrible part about it. The story was always going to go that way. The third act was always going to be total war with no winners because that was the very simple point of the story from the beginning -- that absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's clear by the end of Season 1 that the Starks and Tyrion were the only ones learning that lesson.

How's that for a novel? I've now officially written more GoT than Martin has since the show started. (Sorry.) ;)
 

Hivemind

We're Touched
Oct 8, 2010
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I don't wanna go full on GoT-debate again, it's been done a million times on the internet.

The last season of GoT was a decided reduction in quality compared to previous seasons, but it also gets substantially more hate than it actually deserves. It's a C+ season of TV than got hated on as if its an F season of TV. Half of that is because seasons 1-6 were mostly Grade A TV, but the other half is because a vocal contingent got mad it that didn't match their headcanon, and then starting blowing all sorts of stuff out of proportion.

The high-level plot of the final season followed GRRM's notes (although it's likely GRRM re-writes portions of this post-show). Certain elements are definitely very heavily foreshadowed both in the books and the show (there's a certain character's "heel turn" that was heavily panned by the internet, but is brutally obvious since season 1 to anyone watching the show again).

That being said, there are definitely issues with execution that are annoying.
 

HTFN

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I don't wanna go full on GoT-debate again, it's been done a million times on the internet.

The last season of GoT was a decided reduction in quality compared to previous seasons, but it also gets substantially more hate than it actually deserves. It's a C+ season of TV than got hated on as if its an F season of TV. Half of that is because seasons 1-6 were mostly Grade A TV, but the other half is because a vocal contingent got mad it that didn't match their headcanon, and then starting blowing all sorts of stuff out of proportion.

The high-level plot of the final season followed GRRM's notes (although it's likely GRRM re-writes portions of this post-show). Certain elements are definitely very heavily foreshadowed both in the books and the show (there's a certain character's "heel turn" that was heavily panned by the internet, but is brutally obvious since season 1 to anyone watching the show again).

That being said, there are definitely issues with execution that are annoying.
I assume this heel turn is a prospective ruler, and in that case I agree, the cracks had been showing for a pretty long time and people who were still on the team were lying to themselves. In a broad strokes way there aren't many of those plot notes I actively don't like but it's like everything had big steps skipped or undid character development out of convenience.

I was missing a few dots to connect between "yeah they're probably cracked by now but due to their history you can see why blah blah" to just going out doing supervillain shit with active malice. Like, you compare how transparent and two dimensional some of those characters became with what they're doing right now in House of the Dragon and it's night and day. There are even elements of grey and room for interpretation with some of the events that keep things pretty humanizing.

That said I thought you were originally talking about a Kingsguard fella whose entire arc kind of fell apart, went backwards, then went nowhere really with no satisfying redeeming quality either way. That was a more dissatisfying and confusing heel turn for me by far.

I guess for me there's a weight to the average. I don't want to watch 6 seasons of A+ TV for a C+ payoff because I don't want to watch C+ TV in the first place. If I had to, I definitely wouldn't want it to come right at the end. It's like having a nice refined multi-course meal and then right at the end there's one more plate but it's just, like, spaghetti and meatballs. Spaghetti and meatballs ain't bad on its own, but when you build to it and set great expectations and then expect spaghetti and meatballs to take you home you're doing it a disservice and it kind of drags the whole thing down more than it should.
 
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kicksavedave

I'm just here for the memes and gifs.
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I tried to search but got errors, so I'll just throw this out there at the risk of being 2 years late... If you haven't watched Ted Lasso, quit sitting on your own balls and watch it. One of the best shows ever if you like well written characters and light-silly, but quality humor.

And of course Hannah Waddingham looks completely different when she's not chanting "Shame, Shame, Shame".


Thoughts for those who have seen it?
 

kicksavedave

I'm just here for the memes and gifs.
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I don't wanna go full on GoT-debate again, it's been done a million times on the internet.

The last season of GoT was a decided reduction in quality compared to previous seasons, but it also gets substantially more hate than it actually deserves. It's a C+ season of TV than got hated on as if its an F season of TV. Half of that is because seasons 1-6 were mostly Grade A TV, but the other half is because a vocal contingent got mad it that didn't match their headcanon, and then starting blowing all sorts of stuff out of proportion.

The high-level plot of the final season followed GRRM's notes (although it's likely GRRM re-writes portions of this post-show). Certain elements are definitely very heavily foreshadowed both in the books and the show (there's a certain character's "heel turn" that was heavily panned by the internet, but is brutally obvious since season 1 to anyone watching the show again).

That being said, there are definitely issues with execution that are annoying.

This, all of this. S8 wasn't great, was definitely the worst of the 8, but WTF did we expect when GRRM simply quit writing the damn books? DnD did the best they could but they are not GRRM caliber writers. All the hate was so widely misplaced, it was ridiculous. I left Reddit for good after S8 ended :D
 
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Jags

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I guess for me there's a weight to the average. I don't want to watch 6 seasons of A+ TV for a C+ payoff because I don't want to watch C+

I think the A+ show was always going to ebb into a B conclusion that wouldn't please very many. Pretty much all the fanboy franchises end with that kind of reception regardless of how good the story actually was. So if the rushed pace knocked it down to a C+ or C, that ain't so bad.

If they're really going to do a Jon Snow sequel series, it has the potential to make those 2 seasons not feel so much like the end. So maybe there'll be some vindication yet...
 

HTFN

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I think the A+ show was always going to ebb into a B conclusion that wouldn't please very many. Pretty much all the fanboy franchises end with that kind of reception regardless of how good the story actually was. So if the rushed pace knocked it down to a C+ or C, that ain't so bad.

If they're really going to do a Jon Snow sequel series, it has the potential to make those 2 seasons not feel so much like the end. So maybe there'll be some vindication yet...
I think it was always expected that it would take a dip when they got out of the easily accessed source material. Yeah, it wouldn't have pleased everyone and probably upset fanboys the most but I don't need some perfect ending, just something a little more tonally consistent. Personally I have it at more like a D+, but again to me it's less about what the plot did but how they let it happen.

Unforced errors like that weird thing with the white horse drive me up the wall. Stone cold forgetting about significant military powers until they're dusting your butts off and killing your babies is insane writing. Arya became a somewhat difficult character to enjoy after they started loading her up with plot armor, but again it's such an unforced mistake. It almost really is as simple as, like, not letting her take a fatal stab wound in the belly and fall in a river/sewer. There are so many clever ways to build tension that the one thing you don't want or need in Game of Thrones is for the "coolness" of the scene to take precedent over the reality of the situation.

I don't think I cared enough about anyone by the end that you couldn't give me six other endings and have me satisfied. f*** it, let Cersei win for all I care as long as the ride there is as gripping as before, but I couldn't find a lot to latch on to because the logistical and realistic concerns that used to allow people to theorize started being minimized at various times for the convenience of the show.

edit: after that it's like you're not watching a world unfold, just a story on rails, and that's usually exactly why I don't watch C+ TV unless they're comedies.
 
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Jags

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Ted Lasso...Thoughts for those who have seen it?

Love it. It's not the monument to perfection that a lot of people go on about. It certainly has its flaws. But the show has charm to spare. Some spoiler haze for folks who maybe haven't seen it...

So to start, for me it could be The Roy and Keeley Show and I'd be on board. Those two carry the show through its lesser elements. And those lesser elements are...

* Nate's story didn't track for me in Season 2. I don't think they did a good job at selling the audience on what drove his jealousy, let alone to the lengths of betraying so many people that helped him.​
* That Beard episode was a big misfire. The mystique of Beard is essential to the character. We're not supposed to see behind the curtain. Imagine if they'd done something similar with the Janitor on Scrubs (another Lawrence show). Not the end of the world, but yeah, this was a mistake.​
* Ted Lasso. Once the show really began to take itself seriously (which they pull off with aplomb), they owed it to the Lasso character to show him being an actual coach. The idea that he can just continue to be a caricature that refuses to learn the sport and gets by on his (oftentimes relentlessly overdone) charm and ability to recruit worthwhile assistants does the show a disservice. If it's true that Season 3 is the final season, I'm sure they'll pay this off.​
That being said, again, it's got more than enough charm to spare. The show comes to life huge when Ted's in his zone, whenever Roy has a story of his own, and Sam/Dani/Isaac are given something to do. Keeley steals damn never every scene she's in, and Higgins does that sometimes, too. And every show gets a boost from a well-crafted dopey character you can root for, and Jamie Tartt has become exactly that.


Great show, can't wait for more.
 
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Jags

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Unforced errors like that weird thing with the white horse drive me up the wall. Stone cold forgetting about significant military powers until they're dusting your butts off and killing your babies is insane writing. Arya became a somewhat difficult character to enjoy after they started loading her up with plot armor, but again it's such an unforced mistake.

Definitely. Those were 100% the types of things the forced brevity caused. There's no way they didn't want to do more with Arya, to use one of your examples, after building her character so painstakingly over years, but they packed too much into those first 6 seasons, leaving them no room to finish it with the same level of detail and care.

It's simple math. They knew they'd have about 80 episodes max. So the plot should have tipped at the midway point and started toward the endgame straight away. They may have had to cut some characters or stories to make room and some of those cuts would have been painful, but the final seasons would have been way better for it.

Some shows have made similar mistakes, but plenty stick the landing with great payoffs, whether the ending was perfect (Justified, The Good Place, Halt and Catch Fire, Friday Night Lights, Six Feet Under, Breaking Bad) or bittersweet (Better Call Saul, The Shield, The Sopranos, The Wire).

It's important to know where you're going, and great writers always do and plan accordingly. The GoT showrunners screwed the pooch LONG before they got the Star Wars gig.
 
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HTFN

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Definitely. Those were 100% the types of things the forced brevity caused. There's no way they didn't want to do more with Arya, to use one of your examples, after building her character so painstakingly over years, but they packed too much into those first 6 seasons, leaving them no room to finish it with the same level of detail and care.

It's simple math. They knew they'd have about 80 episodes max. So the plot should have tipped at the midway point and started toward the endgame straight away. They may have had to cut some characters or stories to make room and some of those cuts would have been painful, but the final seasons would have been way better for it.

Some shows have made similar mistakes, but plenty stick the landing with great payoffs, whether the ending was perfect (Justified, The Good Place, Halt and Catch Fire, Friday Night Lights, Six Feet Under, Breaking Bad) or bittersweet (Better Call Saul, The Shield, The Sopranos, The Wire).

It's important to know where you're going, and great writers always do and plan accordingly. The GoT showrunners screwed the pooch LONG before they got the Star Wars gig.
I'm not sure they knew that. I honestly think, not that I can source it, HBO would have given them at least another season or two if they'd asked. Frankly from a business perspective there's no reason not to do it, they hype was maintained at the time the announcements were made. I'm not saying it was all due to another deal, but what happened to that deal might also be a result of public opinion and how difficult it may be to market after the flop they delivered.

If your entire series is slow burn, you can increase the pace but you can't get to inferno levels right away. They needed more seasons or more episodes at least, and I think HBO would have obliged if they'd asked.

EDIT: and some of the shows you listed are why I'm way better with C+ story lines in the setup phase if it can can deliver on the series' sort of... thesis statement, I guess. When you can rewatch going "okay this part isn't the best but it gets so much better and I know that" you start to even find reasons to love what you didn't before. Game of Thrones didn't do that. If they knew they were creeping towards an 80 episode cap they didn't do anything with that mid-game that they should have to deliver what the story deserved. That's kind of on the hands of the writing staff to know their arc's rate versus the material they're interpreting, and when to begin to branch. That's the ultimate fault with the show and why as a serial re-watcher I've still never felt compelled to go back to the show.
 
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CapitalsCupReality

It’s Go Time!!
Feb 27, 2002
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I tried to search but got errors, so I'll just throw this out there at the risk of being 2 years late... If you haven't watched Ted Lasso, quit sitting on your own balls and watch it. One of the best shows ever if you like well written characters and light-silly, but quality humor.

And of course Hannah Waddingham looks completely different when she's not chanting "Shame, Shame, Shame".


Thoughts for those who have seen it?
It’s cute….well done. Glad it’s not going to drag on forever though….

I think the A+ show was always going to ebb into a B conclusion that wouldn't please very many. Pretty much all the fanboy franchises end with that kind of reception regardless of how good the story actually was. So if the rushed pace knocked it down to a C+ or C, that ain't so bad.

If they're really going to do a Jon Snow sequel series, it has the potential to make those 2 seasons not feel so much like the end. So maybe there'll be some vindication yet...
This is what I would have said….A+….waned at times to a B.
 

Jags

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I don't think I cared enough about anyone by the end that you couldn't give me six other endings and have me satisfied. f*** it, let Cersei win for all I care

Yeah, my appreciation for the show didn't crater quite as much as yours. I totally get it and you're 100% right about the specifics, no question. I guess for me it was just knowing what to expect given where they were at the end of the sixth season, then the announcement that the last two would be shortened. It seemed like a lock to me that it'd feel condensed, so it didn't hit me so hard when it played out that way.

I'm not sure they knew that. I honestly think, not that I can source it, HBO would have given them at least another season or two if they'd asked.

No, zero chance of that. There's no way enough of the cast would sign extensions under those conditions. They would have lost too many key characters. Those working conditions were famously brutal, the show was already legendarily expensive, and not everyone is in it for the money. 8 years is a LONG time for a show like that.

And that probably adds to your dissatisfaction at least a little; believing that they could have chosen to have more episodes or seasons. Seems clear that they had to wrestle hard for what they got.
 

CapitalsCupReality

It’s Go Time!!
Feb 27, 2002
66,290
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Love it. It's not the monument to perfection that a lot of people go on about. It certainly has its flaws. But the show has charm to spare. Some spoiler haze for folks who maybe haven't seen it...

So to start, for me it could be The Roy and Keeley Show and I'd be on board. Those two carry the show through its lesser elements. And those lesser elements are...

* Nate's story didn't track for me in Season 2. I don't think they did a good job at selling the audience on what drove his jealousy, let alone to the lengths of betraying so many people that helped him.​
* That Beard episode was a big misfire. The mystique of Beard is essential to the character. We're not supposed to see behind the curtain. Imagine if they'd done something similar with the Janitor on Scrubs (another Lawrence show). Not the end of the world, but yeah, this was a mistake.​
* Ted Lasso. Once the show really began to take itself seriously (which they pull off with aplomb), they owed it to the Lasso character to show him being an actual coach. The idea that he can just continue to be a caricature that refuses to learn the sport and gets by on his (oftentimes relentlessly overdone) charm and ability to recruit worthwhile assistants does the show a disservice. If it's true that Season 3 is the final season, I'm sure they'll pay this off.​
That being said, again, it's got more than enough charm to spare. The show comes to life huge when Ted's in his zone, whenever Roy has a story of his own, and Sam/Dani/Isaac are given something to do. Keeley steals damn never every scene she's in, and Higgins does that sometimes, too. And every show gets a boost from a well-crafted dopey character you can root for, and Jamie Tartt has become exactly that.


Great show, can't wait for more.
Nate‘s angle sucks….totally unbelievable to me.
 
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HTFN

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Yeah, my appreciation for the show didn't crater quite as much as yours. I totally get it and you're 100% right about the specifics, no question. I guess for me it was just knowing what to expect given where they were at the end of the sixth season, then the announcement that the last two would be shortened. It seemed like a lock to me that it'd feel condensed, so it didn't hit me so hard when it played out that way.



No, zero chance of that. There's no way enough of the cast would sign extensions under those conditions. They would have lost too many key characters. Those working conditions were famously brutal, the show was already legendarily expensive, and not everyone is in it for the money. 8 years is a LONG time for a show like that.

And that probably adds to your dissatisfaction at least a little; believing that they could have chosen to have more episodes or seasons. Seems clear that they had to wrestle hard for what they got.
That's believable, I can take that.

Honestly though, I don't know how much it adds. Like... based solely on what we got, an extension would have been the easiest no-rewrites way to solve the problem by allowing what they did to develop longer and breathe a little but there are also numerous other ways to accomplish more than what they managed even within the episode parameters they already had.

If you have the notes and you know what you're going to end up doing maybe don't go to Dorne so much. Use that time wisely and pace what you need to pace so that the end of the show isn't an ambush.
 
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Jags

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If you have the notes and you know what you're going to end up doing maybe don't go to Dorne so much. Use that time wisely and pace what you need to pace so that the end of the show isn't an ambush.

100%. That's what I mean about them screwing it up way before it even got to those final years. They knew there'd be no extensions. They already had budget fights for years over effects. That's why, for example, Ghost showed up only briefly in the final season -- no money for the effect. If money was that tight for 13 episodes that would air over 22 months, imagine HBO's position on A-list cast raises for seasons beyond that.

Production cost for GoT was $560 million (6m per episode for S1-S5, 10m for S6-S7, 15m for S8). And that's for a pre-Max a la carte cable channel. And it was the proof of concept for the fantasy series that are spending more now.

They don't have the baked-in subscribers that Amazon gets for giving away their TV streaming for Prime accounts that most households have for other reasons, so they can afford to go $60m per episode on LotR. Netflix had that crazy head start on streaming subs, so they sprung for Stranger Things S4 at $30m per. HBO, for context, is doing House of the Dragon for $20m per and has cancelled like 70% of its slate since the merger. Hell, Disney is averaging around 20m per on the Star Wars shows, which seems low by comparison now.

So yeah, I'm sure they told Benioff and Weiss to make the most of the time and money they were alotted. I wish I hadn't looked into this. Seems wasteful now. Gonna go watch some PBS to wash the dirt off.
 
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HTFN

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100%. That's what I mean about them screwing it up way before it even got to those final years. They knew there'd be no extensions. They already had budget fights for years over effects. That's why, for example, Ghost showed up only briefly in the final season -- no money for the effect. If money was that tight for 13 episodes that would air over 22 months, imagine HBO's position on A-list cast raises for seasons beyond that.

Production cost for GoT was $560 million (6m per episode for S1-S5, 10m for S6-S7, 15m for S8). And that's for a pre-Max a la carte cable channel. And it was the proof of concept for the fantasy series that are spending more now.

They don't have the baked-in subscribers that Amazon gets for giving away their TV streaming for Prime accounts that most households have for other reasons, so they can afford to go $60m per episode on LotR. Netflix had that crazy head start on streaming subs, so they sprung for Stranger Things S4 at $30m per. HBO, for context, is doing House of the Dragon for $20m per and has cancelled like 70% of its slate since the merger. Hell, Disney is averaging around 20m per on the Star Wars shows, which seems low by comparison now.

So yeah, I'm sure they told Benioff and Weiss to make the most of the time and money they were alotted. I wish I hadn't looked into this. Seems wasteful now. Gonna go watch some PBS to wash the dirt off.
That all does genuinely matter and suck a little, and totally frame what happened and why it happened but I feel like the writers can't be so optimistic in say, season 5.

If the reality of the situation was kind of obvious it's foolish to do what they did and ultimately it seems like they're the ones who stunted their careers by not managing that correctly. There are several versions of this that don't suck anywhere close to what we got and that's what I think I hold beef with.
 
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usiel

Where wolf’s ears are, wolf’s teeth are near.
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Never understood why apparently GRRM got sidelined in the last couple of seasons when it came to guiding elements of the story. Wonder if there is a backstory there that will come out at some point. If D&D got tired of being the showrunners they should have step aside as this happens all the time in TV.

Not sure how many who have read the books but watched the show but would recommend it (or even audio book versions). GRRM's writing/prose is pretty fantastic. Still remember finally getting Jamie chapters in the 3rd book which was a mind blown experience considering he was probably the most cartoonist villain in the series up to that point.

Final seasons I generally always have lower expectations considering how much TV series I have watched over the years. The last GoT season felt like it was just rushed and should have been split into two seasons. But maybe the outline the GRRM gave them did not have enough of the side plot/characters to fill stuff and maybe they did not have license to really go off on their own with content that would completely not be related to GoT.

Different show but I found the The Recruit on Netflix pretty entertaining for some reason.
 
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max21

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White lotus on HBO, it’s pretty damn hilarious and entertaining. My girlfriend and I were hooked after the first episode, it’s worth a quick binge. Not for kids lol
 
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usiel

Where wolf’s ears are, wolf’s teeth are near.
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Alice in Borderlands S2 dropped. Holy hell the s2 s1 is ultra violence. If you are triggered by gun violence in a city do not recommend a watch.
 

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