Canucks Managerial Thread II

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You talk a lot in that post about whether Benning can build a good team long term. That is not going to come down to the odd trade, good or bad, or every contract he signs being perfect.

The most important element in building a good team and organization long term is good drafting that keeps the pipeline full of talent. Both to stock your roster and to provide assets. That has LONG been a weakness of the Vancouver Canucks.

Too early to see how the players ultimately turn out, but I personally feel good about Benning's first 2 drafts. What I also like is that Linden and Benning are extremely clear in understanding and stating that the most important part of their job is drafting and developing players.

That is most important to me personally. I want to win every trade ideally like everyone does but I thought the drama over moving Lack was excessive and really has nothing to do with our long term success. Not an all star or Vezina winner. Much ado about nothing. I like Markstrom better long term and I always felt that a Miller/Markstrom duo this year would be just fine for where this team is. More drama about Kassian but he clearly needed to go and is not a player you build with or want around your young players.

It is all about building with the next wave of good, legitimate NHL prospects who become players. I think people need to chill and give Benning a chance to do that. GMs should be judged after 3-5 years.

I agree that drafting and player development is key. But dishing out terrible contracts and trading for players that aren't a fit in the role and contract they're given, will destroy the overall depth.

It's never been about the "odd trade" or "every contract being perfect" ... it's about the team philosophy and strategies which lead to bad contract after bad contract... and bad trade after bad trade.

In just over a year here, he's made two huge cap blunders. Both Sutter and Sbisa were badly scouted for the roles and contracts they got. And when you see every contract and pro scouting decision consistently show the same, that's a huge concern with how Benning is building this team. Again, the problems will come in a couple years when those contracts are still on the books and you have several ELCs that will (hopefully) need big raises.

Great drafting won't erase that. And even it is good enough to balance out the terrible things, all it gives you is that same team that will contend for a playoff spot every year but won't have the overall skill and depth to consistently contend for the Cup.
 
It also doesn't help when he makes an excellent pick like Forsling and then throws him away for poorly scouted scraps. Not sure how you can acquire a player and then later say "Oh he doesn't skate at an NHL level". Did you not scout him before?

Then they threw the scrap they acquired into another trade needlessly.

You can be the best drafter in the world, but when you trade away your picks and the players you picked for nothing, it doesn't really matter.
 
You talk a lot in that post about whether Benning can build a good team long term. That is not going to come down to the odd trade, good or bad, or every contract he signs being perfect.

The most important element in building a good team and organization long term is good drafting that keeps the pipeline full of talent. Both to stock your roster and to provide assets. That has LONG been a weakness of the Vancouver Canucks.

Too early to see how the players ultimately turn out, but I personally feel good about Benning's first 2 drafts. What I also like is that Linden and Benning are extremely clear in understanding and stating that the most important part of their job is drafting and developing players.

That is most important to me personally. I want to win every trade ideally like everyone does but I thought the drama over moving Lack was excessive and really has nothing to do with our long term success. Not an all star or Vezina winner. Much ado about nothing. I like Markstrom better long term and I always felt that a Miller/Markstrom duo this year would be just fine for where this team is. More drama about Kassian but he clearly needed to go and is not a player you build with or want around your young players.

It is all about building with the next wave of good, legitimate NHL prospects who become players. I think people need to chill and give Benning a chance to do that. GMs should be judged after 3-5 years.

Good pipeline is important, but problem is Benning is signing guys at a much higher rate that will make it hard to retain all the talent.
Just look at Lack as an example, apparently they wanted to retain him but freaked out when he asked for 4+M and then decided to dump him for a 3rd rounder. There are a few points from this example, 1st point, players are noticing how Benning is negotiating and are already asking for mores. 2nd point, this shows Benning has no freaking clue how to negotiate, how can a starting bid freak someone out? Look at what Lack ultimately signed for in Carolina. 3rd, he pronounced Lack as a backup and tanked his value. How many games did Jones have and he got a 1st rounder?

Players due for a new contract are going to do the same thing, they are going to ask for more because if Linden Vey and Sbisa can get a raise for being utter crap, those players will be idiots for not asking for outrageous contracts.

If Benning can't sign them, is anyone here comfortable with him getting value back based on all the trades he has made.
Garrison returns the least compare to Leddy and Boychuk.
Lack returned the least compare to other goalies.
Pittsburg needed to get rid of Sutter to make the cap work and still managed to squeeze us hard.

He is basically slowly creating a scenario where he has to have youth come in every year to replace the bleeding of talent due to his awful cap management and trades.
He can be a master drafter, but problem is even the best drafting team don't nail picks every single draft.

Boston is a good example of a team where good players are lost because of bad cap management and value not fully replenished because of bad trades.
Ironically Benning was partly responsible for their cap issue and bad drafting.
 
I agree that drafting and player development is key. But dishing out terrible contracts and trading for players that aren't a fit in the role and contract they're given, will destroy the overall depth.

It's never been about the "odd trade" or "every contract being perfect" ... it's about the team philosophy and strategies which lead to bad contract after bad contract... and bad trade after bad trade.

In just over a year here, he's made two huge cap blunders. Both Sutter and Sbisa were badly scouted for the roles and contracts they got. And when you see every contract and pro scouting decision consistently show the same, that's a huge concern with how Benning is building this team. Again, the problems will come in a couple years when those contracts are still on the books and you have several ELCs that will (hopefully) need big raises.

Great drafting won't erase that. And even it is good enough to balance out the terrible things, all it gives you is that same team that will contend for a playoff spot every year but won't have the overall skill and depth to consistently contend for the Cup.

I don't really think Sutter was a 'huge cap blunder'. Neither was Miller or Dorsett imo. All three players are getting paid what comparables make. You may disagree with the need for such a player (ie veteran starter, 4th line pugilist, shutdown 3rd line C), but don't think you can claim those contracts are anything more than standard for the players, or type of players, involved.

There is an admittedly small chance that Sbisa actually becomes an ok bottom pairing defenceman (basically a #5), and that is what he makes. I am optimistic, perhaps naively so. The last few games indicate there is something there. Independently of that all GM's, and almost all good times have a few bad contracts, for whatever reason. Anaheim has Stoner, Chicago has Bickell, Tampa has Carle.

Finally to address the point regarding losing all trades, the losses are so trivial or minor in nature they are irrelevant, at least to me. I am a firm believer in making trades to make your team better as opposed to 'winning' each and every trade. You often have to overpay in regards to the former, however if the on-ice results bear fruit that is the whole point of managing a team. Not making sure you get an extra 3rd rounder of whatever while your team plummets to the bottom of the standings (a la Regier).
 
I don't really think Sutter was a 'huge cap blunder'. Neither was Miller or Dorsett imo. All three players are getting paid what comparables make. You may disagree with the need for such a player (ie veteran starter, 4th line pugilist, shutdown 3rd line C), but don't think you can claim those contracts are anything more than standard for the players, or type of players, involved.

There is an admittedly small chance that Sbisa actually becomes an ok bottom pairing defenceman (basically a #5), and that is what he makes. I am optimistic, perhaps naively so. The last few games indicate there is something there. Independently of that all GM's, and almost all good times have a few bad contracts, for whatever reason. Anaheim has Stoner, Chicago has Bickell, Tampa has Carle.

Finally to address the point regarding losing all trades, the losses are so trivial or minor in nature they are irrelevant, at least to me. I am a firm believer in making trades to make your team better as opposed to 'winning' each and every trade. You often have to overpay in regards to the former, however if the on-ice results bear fruit that is the whole point of managing a team. Not making sure you get an extra 3rd rounder of whatever while your team plummets to the bottom of the standings (a la Regier).

It's not about losing trades, it's about losing value and downgrading your roster.

For example, trades Garrison for a 2nd. Ok he creates a hole in D. Then he fills that hole by using our best trade chip. Bad scouting nets him Sbisa and then a bad contract negates any cap savings we get from losing Garrison. Compound on that we traded a 2nd for Vey and he is not even a NHL player.

So we weakened our D, wasted an opportunity with our best trade chip. Didn't get anything back in terms of cap or talent for weakening our D.

This is just one example.
 
Forsling for Clendening, then trading Bonino + Clendening for an equivalent at best, more expensive player on an expiring contract was also pretty bad.

As an aside, Forsling has 7 points in 8 games to start this season in the SHL. Just brilliant asset management.
 
Forsling for Clendening, then trading Bonino + Clendening for an equivalent at best, more expensive player on an expiring contract was also pretty bad.

As an aside, Forsling has 7 points in 8 games to start this season in the SHL. Just brilliant asset management.

If the trade was Bonino and Forsling for Sutter, would that somehow alter things? When Forsling makes the NHL let's revisit this issue. Chances are he never does. Bonino is playing about 14 minutes a night in Pittsburgh. I agree with Sutter being a better fit for this team. Also a better player if the focus is on the future (ie Horvat). Sutter can insulate Horvat somewhat in regards to defensive zone starts and matchups.
 
It's not about losing trades, it's about losing value and downgrading your roster.

For example, trades Garrison for a 2nd. Ok he creates a hole in D. Then he fills that hole by using our best trade chip. Bad scouting nets him Sbisa and then a bad contract negates any cap savings we get from losing Garrison. Compound on that we traded a 2nd for Vey and he is not even a NHL player.

So we weakened our D, wasted an opportunity with our best trade chip. Didn't get anything back in terms of cap or talent for weakening our D.

This is just one example.

If he was downgrading the roster, shouldn't we presumably see that at some point in time? We didn't last year. Way too early to tell this year, but if these additions are as horrendous as many posters keep repeating ad nauseum than we will see a much worse product on-ice.

Garrison didn't fit our d-core, he needed to be moved. The d core desperately needed revamping, this year it's thus far looking as good as I can remember it. That doesn't happen if we keep vets such as Garrison and Bieksa.
 
If the trade was Bonino and Forsling for Sutter, would that somehow alter things? When Forsling makes the NHL let's revisit this issue. Chances are he never does. Bonino is playing about 14 minutes a night in Pittsburgh. I agree with Sutter being a better fit for this team. Also a better player if the focus is on the future (ie Horvat). Sutter can insulate Horvat somewhat in regards to defensive zone starts and matchups.

Forsling is the 4th top scoring defenseman in the SHL.

I'd say that his chances of playing in the NHL are fairly high.
 
If the trade was Bonino and Forsling for Sutter, would that somehow alter things? When Forsling makes the NHL let's revisit this issue. Chances are he never does. Bonino is playing about 14 minutes a night in Pittsburgh. I agree with Sutter being a better fit for this team. Also a better player if the focus is on the future (ie Horvat). Sutter can insulate Horvat somewhat in regards to defensive zone starts and matchups.

We could have used Richardson or Santorelli or Matthias to fill that role without giving up any assets. Or just kept Bonino.
 
Forsling is the 4th top scoring defenseman in the SHL.

I'd say that his chances of playing in the NHL are fairly high.

Yes, with a whole of 8 games played. Tied with Cory Murphy. Previous defenceman who were 4th in scoring in the SHL include such luminaries as

Magnus Johansson (06/07)
Daniel Fernholm (07/08)
Kenny Jönsson (08/09)
Pasi Puistola (09/10)
Juuso Hietanen (10/11)
Christian Bäckman (11/12)
Magnus Nygren (12/13)

I'd say his chances aren't great.
 
Yes, with a whole of 8 games played. Tied with Cory Murphy. Previous defenceman who were 4th in scoring in the SHL include such luminaries as

Magnus Johansson (06/07)
Daniel Fernholm (07/08)
Kenny Jönsson (08/09)
Pasi Puistola (09/10)
Juuso Hietanen (10/11)
Christian Bäckman (11/12)
Magnus Nygren (12/13)

I'd say his chances aren't great.

Putting up numbers in the SHL at age 19 is a whole lot different than doing it at the ages those guys are though.
 
Good pipeline is important, but problem is Benning is signing guys at a much higher rate that will make it hard to retain all the talent.
Just look at Lack as an example, apparently they wanted to retain him but freaked out when he asked for 4+M and then decided to dump him for a 3rd rounder. There are a few points from this example, 1st point, players are noticing how Benning is negotiating and are already asking for mores. 2nd point, this shows Benning has no freaking clue how to negotiate, how can a starting bid freak someone out? Look at what Lack ultimately signed for in Carolina. 3rd, he pronounced Lack as a backup and tanked his value. How many games did Jones have and he got a 1st rounder?

Players due for a new contract are going to do the same thing, they are going to ask for more because if Linden Vey and Sbisa can get a raise for being utter crap, those players will be idiots for not asking for outrageous contracts.

If Benning can't sign them, is anyone here comfortable with him getting value back based on all the trades he has made.
Garrison returns the least compare to Leddy and Boychuk.
Lack returned the least compare to other goalies.
Pittsburg needed to get rid of Sutter to make the cap work and still managed to squeeze us hard.

He is basically slowly creating a scenario where he has to have youth come in every year to replace the bleeding of talent due to his awful cap management and trades.
He can be a master drafter, but problem is even the best drafting team don't nail picks every single draft.

Boston is a good example of a team where good players are lost because of bad cap management and value not fully replenished because of bad trades.
Ironically Benning was partly responsible for their cap issue and bad drafting.

Good post. Some great points there.

I also have some of those concerns and hope Benning gets better in those areas.

For me one of the poorest moves was the deal for Clendening that cost Forsling. Not sure if Forsling will fully pan out but how can the pro scouting have been so poor on Clendening. I thought he was awful. His skating shocked me. Not that I want to see bad moves continue but one silver lining is that Benning doesnt seem to let his pride get in the way of fixing a mistake. He moved Clendening and sent Vey to the minors at least. All GMs make mistakes, we hope they decrease but I like a guy that will act decisively to move on from a mistake rather than beat a dead horse to save his ego.

I dont mind what I have seen from Sutter so far. I like him on the team more than Bonino who i never really liked as a Canuck. I think Benning is right about getting faster really being important. I guees we will see about the contract over time.

Just a note about Jones. I think he will prove that he will be a good #1 goalie this year. I think he is the real deal. North Vancouver boy. Sharks coveted him for a while and had no problem surrendering a first round pick. I like Lack well enough, but I never got the feeling he was as respected outside of Vancouver as he was here. I never heard of any teams coveting him the way Jones was. If so I don't think Benning would have said no to a higher pick.
 
From reading a lot of posts the general consensus seems to be we shoulda kept garrison, shoulda kept lack, shoulda kept kass, shoulda kept Kesler (if only for a better return), shoulda kept bonino, shoulda kept Richardson. If we kept all these players it's the same team that is losing out in the first round.
 
Putting up numbers in the SHL at age 19 is a whole lot different than doing it at the ages those guys are though.

Well I'd have to check all of their ages, but I'm sure some of them were younger guys. Not many SHL players make it, even if they are good in the SHL. Here's a good chart regarding this

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Ryan...-Going-From-SHL-to-NHL-Based-on-Age/177/70104

Ultimately I do think he was a good 5th round pick, but his odds of making the NHL, as with any 5th round pick are low.

I think it's silly to say we've given up insane value in a trade, and then cite a total, and extreme longshot, to somehow justify that position personally.
 
I don't really think Sutter was a 'huge cap blunder'. Neither was Miller or Dorsett imo. All three players are getting paid what comparables make. You may disagree with the need for such a player (ie veteran starter, 4th line pugilist, shutdown 3rd line C), but don't think you can claim those contracts are anything more than standard for the players, or type of players, involved.

IMO Sutter was a huge cap blunder because he was targeted by Benning to fill a top-6 role - and we can see he's just not that player. With Horvat in the system, the logical reason for getting Sutter would be to ease his transition into the top-6 , where Sutter could slide to the 3rd line when Horvat was ready. Horvat's already shown he's ready and there is no doubt at all that he's higher on the depth chart already over Sutter. Still the mistake happened when he extended him early - without seeing his fit in the lineup at all - to a long-term deal that will keep him at top-6 salary as he continues to fall down the depth chart.

Even without the surprising fast development track demonstrated by McCann, surely he would have been expected to earn a top-9 spot over the next 2 to 3 years. Yet Sutter gets a 5 year extension, so for the next 6 years he's tied up to a $4.375mill cap hit, and will likely be a 4th line center within a year or two (some could argue he's there now) - a position that can be filled at minimum wage. That's 3 and half million that could be spent elsewhere to improve the roster - like getting a legitimate top-6 winger instead of plugging your defensive center in that spot and hope he learns offense finally.... or adding that fourth top-4 dman that this team still badly needs.

The reason why it was a huge blunder IMO was because the long-term ramifications of the contract, with the options you already had developing in place, doesn't justify the player or contract given. I agree Sutter could have been worth that on the UFA market, and giving it to him specifically isn't a contract blunder. But targeting a player who gets that type of contract, at center-ice, with the options you have (and the holes elsewhere), and then giving him a deal which will keep him here at that contract over the next 6 seasons, while better younger talents will need another contract - may 2 or more - before that is off our cap, is a huge blunder.

Agreed on Miller. I would have personally gone with Lack, as a cheaper younger option to get us through the next few years, but Miller's term doesn't impact this team's cap situation.

Dorsett wasn't a huge blunder, but he's another of the smaller ones, as it's still another overpaid contract. It's not a problem as he's not that overpaid.. but another sign you're still paying too much for a bottom end depth player... still $2.65 for 3 years isn't much to worry about.

Sbisa on the other hand, I would classify as a huge blunder. Particularly because he dished out that contract before the season even ended and seeing him in the playoffs, while he had RFA status and really no leverage at all through a pretty bad season for him. This is a guy who could easily have been just qualified. There was no risk at all to it, and huge savings. He still hasn't proven that he can't easily (emphasis on easily) be replaced by a journeyman player making at or near league minimum.

Again, this just shows his lack of ability here.


There is an admittedly small chance that Sbisa actually becomes an ok bottom pairing defenceman (basically a #5), and that is what he makes. I am optimistic, perhaps naively so. The last few games indicate there is something there. Independently of that all GM's, and almost all good times have a few bad contracts, for whatever reason. Anaheim has Stoner, Chicago has Bickell, Tampa has Carle.

Personally, I'd love to see Sbisa work out. Who doesn't want a physical dman who can skate, and has the tools to help at both ends? He just can't think the game consistently at the pace it's played at. That's why I don't see him becoming anymore than a serviceable bottom pairing guy - like a Bartowski (impact wise, not style wise). And that cap hit for that player again handicaps the team from improving it other areas. Still I hope it just clicks for him eventually... that contract makes him immovable and still a big cap hit if you waive him.


Finally to address the point regarding losing all trades, the losses are so trivial or minor in nature they are irrelevant, at least to me. I am a firm believer in making trades to make your team better as opposed to 'winning' each and every trade. You often have to overpay in regards to the former, however if the on-ice results bear fruit that is the whole point of managing a team. Not making sure you get an extra 3rd rounder of whatever while your team plummets to the bottom of the standings (a la Regier).

I agree in making trades to help improve the team, over winning or getting as much value as possible. Which trades has Benning made that improved this team?

The Kesler trade was forced, so can't fault him for having to make that even if it weakened the team.

So, the Garrison trade? The Vey trade? Clendenning?

Maybe the Sutter deal? Still too early to tell, but seeing as how the very early signs point to an overpaid player who isn't really fitting the lineup as he's moved from his natural position as others overtake him on the depth chart already... I'd say it's not looking great as in a move that actually improved the team.

Maybe the Kassian deal, an improvement by subtraction?

Yes, Benning is losing value in trades, but more concerning for me is that he's not targeting the right guys to spend whatever value he has left. As he continues to deplete his tradeable assets - however slowly - he has less chances to actually make a good trade that improves this team.

Basically I agree with you when you said ... "I am a firm believer in making trades to make your team better as opposed to 'winning' each and every trade." ... I just don't think that Benning has made the trades which have improved this team overall.
 
I don't really think Sutter was a 'huge cap blunder'. Neither was Miller or Dorsett imo. All three players are getting paid what comparables make. You may disagree with the need for such a player (ie veteran starter, 4th line pugilist, shutdown 3rd line C), but don't think you can claim those contracts are anything more than standard for the players, or type of players, involved.

There is an admittedly small chance that Sbisa actually becomes an ok bottom pairing defenceman (basically a #5), and that is what he makes. I am optimistic, perhaps naively so. The last few games indicate there is something there. Independently of that all GM's, and almost all good times have a few bad contracts, for whatever reason. Anaheim has Stoner, Chicago has Bickell, Tampa has Carle.

Finally to address the point regarding losing all trades, the losses are so trivial or minor in nature they are irrelevant, at least to me. I am a firm believer in making trades to make your team better as opposed to 'winning' each and every trade. You often have to overpay in regards to the former, however if the on-ice results bear fruit that is the whole point of managing a team. Not making sure you get an extra 3rd rounder of whatever while your team plummets to the bottom of the standings (a la Regier).

I agree with you that there was more hand wringing over the trades than necessary. Ok Benning maybe didn't win every one bit I didnt see any catastrophies that some made out here. Some of the moves were pretty minor and yes I include the Lack trade in that category. Kassian is proving to be no great loss. In fact that was an addition by subtraction trade. I could care less that I dont have to watch Bonino slug around the ice and Clendening stumble around the ice.

Draft and get a few McCanns into the line-up and that will go a long way to overcoming the odd minor trade misjudgement. I will say I do not want to give away 2nds for Veys and Baertschis any more. A 3rd I didnt mind for Pedan, a big strapping specimen who plays tough, can skate and shoot the puck. Worth a flier there.
 
Forsling is the 4th top scoring defenseman in the SHL.

I'd say that his chances of playing in the NHL are fairly high.

Small, not physical and an awkward skater. Many players have excelled in Europe and never fit into the NHL. Anton Rodin would be one example. Far from a given at this point. Though I will admit I would rather wait and see than have had Clendening.
 
Small, not physical and an awkward skater. Many players have excelled in Europe and never fit into the NHL. Anton Rodin would be one example. Far from a given at this point. Though I will admit I would rather wait and see than have had Clendening.

His posture looked awkward but his skating was never bad.

Forsling also is not "small", he's 6'0"
 
Yes, with a whole of 8 games played. Tied with Cory Murphy. Previous defenceman who were 4th in scoring in the SHL include such luminaries as

Magnus Johansson (06/07)
Daniel Fernholm (07/08)
Kenny Jönsson (08/09)
Pasi Puistola (09/10)
Juuso Hietanen (10/11)
Christian Bäckman (11/12)
Magnus Nygren (12/13)

I'd say his chances aren't great.

I've watched a lot of prospects, like a **** ton.

I'd say he has a good shot at making the NHL.
 
Small, not physical and an awkward skater. Many players have excelled in Europe and never fit into the NHL. Anton Rodin would be one example. Far from a given at this point. Though I will admit I would rather wait and see than have had Clendening.

When have you seen him play?

Everyone on here would be super hyped with a 19 year old D prospect being 4th in the SHL

For a team that needs prospects/picks it'll be interesting to see the deadline
From what I see the picks are as follows
Van 1st
Anaheim's 2nd
Pittsburghs 3rd
Van 4th
Van 6th
Van 7th, Car 7th
 
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