Canucks Managerial Thread II

  • Xenforo Cloud will be upgrading us to version 2.3.5 on March 3rd at 12 AM GMT. This version has increased stability and fixes several bugs. We expect downtime for the duration of the update. The admin team will continue to work on existing issues, templates and upgrade all necessary available addons to minimize impact of this new version. Click Here for Updates
Status
Not open for further replies.
Personally I would rather have Sutter than any of those players. I think he will do fine this year.

It's not about Sutter being better than those players. It's about us trading Bonino who is arguably better, or comparable at worst for Sutter and adding for it. Especially when we give Sutter a massive contract and Bonino is on a great contract and the Pens had to move him. Then take into account that we traded Kesler for Sutter, Sbisa and the 24th (McCann) and it looks really bad.

It's not about Richardson vs Sutter. It's about Bonino + Richardson vs Sutter.
 
When have you seen him play?

Everyone on here would be super hyped with a 19 year old D prospect being 4th in the SHL

For a team that needs prospects/picks it'll be interesting to see the deadline
From what I see the picks are as follows
Van 1st
Anaheim's 2nd
Pittsburghs 3rd
Van 4th
Van 6th
Van 7th, Car 7th

World Juniors. He looked like a power play specialist in the NHL or a Weber type. He could be more, just saying that he is not a given because he is playing well in Europe. Dozens have done that and not made the NHL.

I did say though I did not like that trade and would rather have him than Clendening.
 
It's not about Sutter being better than those players. It's about us trading Bonino who is arguably better, or comparable at worst for Sutter and adding for it. Especially when we give Sutter a massive contract and Bonino is on a great contract and the Pens had to move him. Then take into account that we traded Kesler for Sutter, Sbisa and the 24th (McCann) and it looks really bad.

It's not about Richardson vs Sutter. It's about Bonino + Richardson vs Sutter.

I disagree Bonino is better
 
From reading a lot of posts the general consensus seems to be we shoulda kept garrison, shoulda kept lack, shoulda kept kass, shoulda kept Kesler (if only for a better return), shoulda kept bonino, shoulda kept Richardson. If we kept all these players it's the same team that is losing out in the first round.

It's not really about 'we should have kept x & y', it's about the process. The guys sent out were sold low or dropped for nothing. The guys brought in he paid a premium for both in cost and again when he resigns them. The problem is in the process.
 
IMO Sutter was a huge cap blunder because he was targeted by Benning to fill a top-6 role - and we can see he's just not that player. With Horvat in the system, the logical reason for getting Sutter would be to ease his transition into the top-6 , where Sutter could slide to the 3rd line when Horvat was ready.

The swap made sense if Horvat was ready to step into a 2nd line offensive role, while being the centre on the 2nd unit PP. That would put Sutter into more of a defensive role, opening up Bonino's offensive minutes. Early returns look good on that front, as Horvat looks strong.

For fans, puck skills and offense is where the focus lies for forwards. On that front, Sutter will always leave you wanting more. Sutter isn't the player fans will fall in love with, he's the player coaches fall in love with - because of their understanding of the nuances of defensive play. And through 4 games the head coach has Sutter playing over 21 minutes a night - good for 1st among forwards and 3rd on the entire roster behind Tanev and Edler.

Probably should only make $4mil going into next season, but by year 2-3 of that deal it ill look fine. Certainly not a cap 'blunder' by any means.

Luca Sbisa is a cap blunder. Sutter is just on the high side of what he's worth because he's locked up 5 UFA years in what should be the prime of his career. Not a terrible gamble to take with a player of that build, tremendous durability and renown for his leadership and character too boot.

People can call Sutter a '4th line centre' until they're blue in the face. Show me a 4th line centre playing 20 minutes a night and I will show you a $4mil 4th line centre. Wake me up when his minutes drop below 15 a night...
 
Garrison not fitting this defense is just plain untrue. He fit in perfectly on his off-side with Hamhuis for the shortened season, playing a shutdown role and scoring goals. For whatever reason it was never revisited again. Our biggest need right now is a legit top-4 dman to play beside Hamhuis, Garrison fits that bill. Sbisa, Weber and Bartowski are all vastly inferior players and Sbisa isn't even much cheaper.

The fact that we devalued Garrison, ran him out of town, and ended up with some waiver bait in Vey just makes it all the more painful. Throw in the 7th round pick that we for some reason added for a bit of extra spice.
 
If he was downgrading the roster, shouldn't we presumably see that at some point in time? We didn't last year. Way too early to tell this year, but if these additions are as horrendous as many posters keep repeating ad nauseum than we will see a much worse product on-ice.

Garrison didn't fit our d-core, he needed to be moved. The d core desperately needed revamping, this year it's thus far looking as good as I can remember it. That doesn't happen if we keep vets such as Garrison and Bieksa.

Our C was downgraded, our D was downgraded, I am not sure that can be disputed.
And for that downgrade what did we receive in return? Pretty much just McCann.

A lot of the downgrade was masked by the wonderful play from Lack, Sedins being top 10 scorers and the rising cap.

I am not sure if replacing Garrison with Sbisa can even be called a revamp. We replaced a top 4 dman that helped a team to the SCF playing top 4 minutes with Sbisa who was on the ice for 56ish % of goals scored against us in the playoffs.
 
Garrison not fitting this defense is just plain untrue. He fit in perfectly on his off-side with Hamhuis for the shortened season, playing a shutdown role and scoring goals. For whatever reason it was never revisited again. Our biggest need right now is a legit top-4 dman to play beside Hamhuis, Garrison fits that bill. Sbisa, Weber and Bartowski are all vastly inferior players and Sbisa isn't even much cheaper.

The fact that we devalued Garrison, ran him out of town, and ended up with some waiver bait in Vey just makes it all the more painful. Throw in the 7th round pick that we for some reason added for a bit of extra spice.

Tell me if my memory is bad but i seem to remember quite well that there was lots of talk about using a compliance buyout on Garrison at the time. His last season in Vancouver was not very good.
 
Then take into account that we traded Kesler for Sutter, Sbisa and the 24th (McCann) and it looks really bad.

Does it?

Kesler is a 45 point player signed to a long term contract for $7mil a season into his late 30's. Benning had one team put forth an offer and a NTC to deal with and may potentially come away with a 2nd and 3rd line centreman in McCann and Sutter. Based on how things look today I don't see how anyone can claim that was a 'really bad' outcome for the position we were put into. Especially considering how thin this organization is up the middle without Sutter and McCann in the mix.

I'm not even sure I would deal McCann straight up for a $7mil Kesler going forward. That deal could end up being one of the better trades in Canuck history...
 
Kesler has more value than a typical 45 point player. Did you not see his contribution in the playoffs?

Tell me if my memory is bad but i seem to remember quite well that there was lots of talk about using a compliance buyout on Garrison at the time. His last season in Vancouver was not very good.

Any talk of a compliance buyout was absolutely ridiculous. He's a solid top 4 defenseman anywhere and well worth his contract. Not a big surprise that one of the best run teams in the league wanted him.
 
Our C was downgraded, our D was downgraded, I am not sure that can be disputed.
And for that downgrade what did we receive in return? Pretty much just McCann.

A lot of the downgrade was masked by the wonderful play from Lack, Sedins being top 10 scorers and the rising cap.

I am not sure if replacing Garrison with Sbisa can even be called a revamp. We replaced a top 4 dman that helped a team to the SCF playing top 4 minutes with Sbisa who was on the ice for 56ish % of goals scored against us in the playoffs.

Our C was downgraded due to a player demanding a trade. That being said, I would say Sutter and McCann is a decent return personally. Sutter to be is a sort of a poor man's hybrid between Kesler and Malhotra pre-injury, which is a valuable player in that it frees up other players (ie top 6 players such as Horvat).

If what you say is true regarding the downgrade, then I guess we'll see the team plummet this season won't we?

It's more than replacing Garrison with Sbisa. That is a simple way to look at things. I see a more mobile, puck-moving defence which the team has needed since the departure of Ehrhoff.
 
Does it?

Kesler is a 45 point player signed to a long term contract for $7mil a season into his late 30's. Benning had one team put forth an offer and a NTC to deal with and may potentially come away with a 2nd and 3rd line centreman in McCann and Sutter. Based on how things look today I don't see how anyone can claim that was a 'really bad' outcome for the position we were put into. Especially considering how thin this organization is up the middle without Sutter and McCann in the mix.

I'm not even sure I would deal McCann straight up for a $7mil Kesler going forward. That deal could end up being one of the better trades in Canuck history...

You are fully correct with this entire comment. I do take issue with a lot of the posters here though that claimed that Kesler was "finished" and "not half the player he was in 2011." Like him or not, he is an exceptional hockey player that plays his best when the chips are down. Finding big, nasty, fast and skilled centre's that play with an edge is next to impossible. I look at the Kesler trade as something akin to the Neuindyk deal. The Ducks got a great player on top of his game that might be the final piece and the Canucks got a very good young talent in return.
 
Does it?

Kesler is a 45 point player signed to a long term contract for $7mil a season into his late 30's. Benning had one team put forth an offer and a NTC to deal with and may potentially come away with a 2nd and 3rd line centreman in McCann and Sutter. Based on how things look today I don't see how anyone can claim that was a 'really bad' outcome for the position we were put into. Especially considering how thin this organization is up the middle without Sutter and McCann in the mix.

I'm not even sure I would deal McCann straight up for a $7mil Kesler going forward. That deal could end up being one of the better trades in Canuck history...

I have to agree. If McCann becomes a top 6 centre eventually - and we end up having a very good 3rd line C along with a solid top 6 C, for player past 30, that is highway robbery.
 
McCann is the piece that defines the trade. The rest of the pieces are fairly irrelevant. If McCann turns into a top 6 forward then it's a good trade. If not then we end up with a bunch of spare parts for a former Selke winner.
 
The Provies were hilarious a couple of days back where Botchford talked about Kesler. Kesler must have dissed him or something, Botch hates the guy.
 
Kesler has more value than a typical 45 point player.

Of course he does. If he wasn't Sutter for a $7mil 45 point player would be a win without McCann even in the deal.

McCann is the piece that defines the trade. The rest of the pieces are fairly irrelevant. If McCann turns into a top 6 forward then it's a good trade. If not then we end up with a bunch of spare parts for a former Selke winner.

Sutter is the #1 minute man amongst forwards this season - 3rd on the entire club right now. I can guarantee people around hockey, namely head coaches would never refer to Sutter as an 'irrelevant piece'. He's paid handsomely for what he does, but he's also a piece every team could use - a piece that coaches love.

But yeah, if McCann continues on the trajectory he's on for a couple more years, this deal could go down as a minor coup. Which is funny considering this trade was what cemented Benning as a 'moron' on this board.

Horvat, McCann and Sutter give the Canucks a nice trio of youth up the middle of the ice going forward. Put me in the camp that see's that trade as a plus for management right now. Especially when you consider the circumstances.
 
Sutter is better suited to the team (faster, younger, more potential upside) than those guys.

Personally I would rather have Sutter than any of those players. I think he will do fine this year.

Sutter only has a year on Bonino/Matthias. There's not much untapped potential for any of those players at this point when you're talking about 26/27 year olds. Especially Sutter who's been in the league for 7 seasons already.

I'd also rather have Bonino + Matthias/Richardson + Forsling than Sutter.
 
IMO Sutter was a huge cap blunder because he was targeted by Benning to fill a top-6 role - and we can see he's just not that player. With Horvat in the system, the logical reason for getting Sutter would be to ease his transition into the top-6 , where Sutter could slide to the 3rd line when Horvat was ready. Horvat's already shown he's ready and there is no doubt at all that he's higher on the depth chart already over Sutter. Still the mistake happened when he extended him early - without seeing his fit in the lineup at all - to a long-term deal that will keep him at top-6 salary as he continues to fall down the depth chart.

Even without the surprising fast development track demonstrated by McCann, surely he would have been expected to earn a top-9 spot over the next 2 to 3 years. Yet Sutter gets a 5 year extension, so for the next 6 years he's tied up to a $4.375mill cap hit, and will likely be a 4th line center within a year or two (some could argue he's there now) - a position that can be filled at minimum wage. That's 3 and half million that could be spent elsewhere to improve the roster - like getting a legitimate top-6 winger instead of plugging your defensive center in that spot and hope he learns offense finally.... or adding that fourth top-4 dman that this team still badly needs.

The reason why it was a huge blunder IMO was because the long-term ramifications of the contract, with the options you already had developing in place, doesn't justify the player or contract given. I agree Sutter could have been worth that on the UFA market, and giving it to him specifically isn't a contract blunder. But targeting a player who gets that type of contract, at center-ice, with the options you have (and the holes elsewhere), and then giving him a deal which will keep him here at that contract over the next 6 seasons, while better younger talents will need another contract - may 2 or more - before that is off our cap, is a huge blunder.

I'm not sure that the traditional concepts of 1st line, 2nd line, 3rd line, etc really apply to this team anymore.

IE - in a season or two we could see something along the lines of Sedin playing 18 minutes per game, and Sutter, McCann & Horvat all playing around between 14-16 each depending on specialty teams, line-matching, zone starts and the like. If Sutter is still playing 15+ per game, playing against the other team's top lines and shorthanded, while potting 20+ goals, he is getting the going rate for said contribution.

I think you've answered my rebuttal for me when you state "With Horvat in the system, the logical reason for getting Sutter would be to ease his transition into the top-6 , where Sutter could slide to the 3rd line when Horvat was ready." Even if McCann makes the team this year, or were to next year, the team still needs a centre capable of eating up those hard minutes. This will free up Horvat and McCann to contribute more offensively. Would be a win-win, just as Malhotra freed up Sedin and Kesler offensively prior to his injury.

The thing I think you are forgetting in your assessment is that the Sedins may retire in a few years - thus the team would have 3 top 9 centres locked up in Horvat, McCann and Sutter. The Canucks were wisely planning for the post-Sedin eara with his contract which is why I am ok with it.

Sbisa on the other hand, I would classify as a huge blunder. Particularly because he dished out that contract before the season even ended and seeing him in the playoffs, while he had RFA status and really no leverage at all through a pretty bad season for him. This is a guy who could easily have been just qualified. There was no risk at all to it, and huge savings. He still hasn't proven that he can't easily (emphasis on easily) be replaced by a journeyman player making at or near league minimum.

Again, this just shows his lack of ability here.

I guess here is where we differ - I see this has a mistake (one that could still work out, even if that is highly unlikely). I do not see it, as so many around here do, as damning evidence of some sort of lack of inability or incompetence. Every GM makes a mistake here or there, or tenders a bad contract. I view this in isolation as opposed to confirmation of a broader judgment regarding Benning.

I agree in making trades to help improve the team, over winning or getting as much value as possible. Which trades has Benning made that improved this team?

The Kesler trade was forced, so can't fault him for having to make that even if it weakened the team.

So, the Garrison trade? The Vey trade? Clendenning?

Maybe the Sutter deal? Still too early to tell, but seeing as how the very early signs point to an overpaid player who isn't really fitting the lineup as he's moved from his natural position as others overtake him on the depth chart already... I'd say it's not looking great as in a move that actually improved the team.

Not going to comment on the individual trades as they've been discussed to death, but the team just finished a 100 point season. They've also looked great out of the gate to the start of this season, so the evidence for Benning improving the team would be the on-ice results of those trades. Which indicate that team is improved.

I agree that it is far too early to tell regarding the Sutter deal - so I don't think it's accurate to state that others have overtaken him on the depth chart. He was moved to the Sedin line to give McCann a look imo.

We can revisit the Sutter / Bonino comparison at the end of the season, but I suspect, and will even go out on a limb and predict, that Sutter will come out on top.
 
I disagree Bonino is better

Even if he isn't, it's definitely close at worst. Bonino + Richardson is better than Sutter. I really like the Cracknell signing thus far, but Bonino + Richardson as our 3/4C is better than Sutter + Cracknell. Especially when you take Sutter's contract into account.
 
Even if he isn't, it's definitely close at worst. Bonino + Richardson is better than Sutter. I really like the Cracknell signing thus far, but Bonino + Richardson as our 3/4C is better than Sutter + Cracknell. Especially when you take Sutter's contract into account.

Why don't we take all contracts into account?

Bonino & Richardson - 3.983

Sutter - Cracknell - 3.875 (yes, Sutter's contract does up by 0.9k next year)

I prefer Sutter & Cracknell. Specifically Sutter given he's a RHS, can eat up difficult minutes (thus freeing up Horvat), has great wheels and very good reach.
 
Why don't we take all contracts into account?

Bonino & Richardson - 3.983

Sutter - Cracknell - 3.875 (yes, Sutter's contract does up by 0.9k next year)

I prefer Sutter & Cracknell. Specifically Sutter given he's a RHS, can eat up difficult minutes (thus freeing up Horvat), has great wheels and very good reach.

Even though Cracknell is a good signing, Richardson is quite clearly better than him. Sutter is not much better than Bonino to the degree that Richardson is better than Cracknell. Bonino and Richardson can both eat up difficult minutes, as they did last year, and are effective penalty killers. Having Bonino+Richardson as 3/4 would free up Horvat just as much as Sutter on the 3rd line.

Sedin Sedin Vrbata
Baertschi Horvat Virtanen
Burrows Bonino Hansen
Higgins Richardson Dorsett

Obviously you can move Burrows up to replace Virtanen, Higgins to the 3rd line and add Prust to the lineup if Virtanen doesn't play well. You can also move Richardson to the wing if McCann earns his spot, as Richardson has played there before, leaving us with a Higgins McCann Richardson 4th line, or swap Bonino for McCann if McCann is playing well. I wouldn't want McCann between Dorsett and Prust but it would be fine with Higgins and Richardson.

If you think that bottom 6 is worse than what we have now, there is no point arguing with you. Sutter isn't some star center. He is at best slightly better than Bonino. Bonino ate up a lot of tough minutes for us last year and still produced better than Sutter. Bonino isn't like some offense only player, he is reliable in his own end and kills penalties. When you say Sutter can eat up difficult minutes, it screams to me that you don't think Richardson and Bonino can when they have quite clearly proven themselves to be effective players.

Plus Sutter gets more expensive next year and has an NTC. Not good.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad