Canucks Managerial Thread II

[Diamonddog01]

Even though Cracknell is a good signing, Richardson is quite clearly better than him. Sutter is not much better than Bonino to the degree that Richardson is better than Cracknell. Bonino and Richardson can both eat up difficult minutes, as they did last year, and are effective penalty killers. Having Bonino+Richardson as 3/4 would free up Horvat just as much as Sutter on the 3rd line.

Sedin Sedin Vrbata
Baertschi Horvat Virtanen
Burrows Bonino Hansen
Higgins Richardson Dorsett

Obviously you can move Burrows up to replace Virtanen, Higgins to the 3rd line and add Prust to the lineup if Virtanen doesn't play well. You can also move Richardson to the wing if McCann earns his spot, as Richardson has played there before.

If you think that bottom 6 is worse than what we have now, there is no point arguing with you. Sutter isn't some star center. He is at best slightly better than Bonino. Bonino ate up a lot of tough minutes for us last year and still produced better than Sutter. Bonino isn't like some offense only player, he is reliable in his own end and kills penalties. When you say Sutter can eat up difficult minutes, it screams to me that you don't think Richardson and Bonino can when they have quite clearly proven themselves to be effective players.

Plus Sutter gets more expensive next year and has an NTC. Not good.

I think you're missing the point, and the reason why the organization traded for him. Sutter is a better fit for this team (even if he is only marginally better). Faster, bigger and a RHS. Has always played tougher minutes than Bonino - who I fully agree did surprisingly well in hard matchups last year. I was a big fan of Bonino and defended him regularly. I do think playing with defensively excellent, possession-driving wingers in Higgins and sometimes Burrows helped him tremendously and I'm very excited to see what Higgins - Sutter - Burrows can do.

In a vacuum sure, I guess you can argue the merits for either. On a team in the Pacific division, who lost to a fast team in the playoffs, is full of LHS centers and has a very young top 6 C, there's no doubt Sutter is a better fit.

 

[arttk]

Our C was downgraded due to a player demanding a trade. That being said, I would say Sutter and McCann is a decent return personally. Sutter to be is a sort of a poor man's hybrid between Kesler and Malhotra pre-injury, which is a valuable player in that it frees up other players (ie top 6 players such as Horvat).

If what you say is true regarding the downgrade, then I guess we'll see the team plummet this season won't we?

It's more than replacing Garrison with Sbisa. That is a simple way to look at things. I see a more mobile, puck-moving defence which the team has needed since the departure of Ehrhoff.

Our c was going to be downgraded regardless, we could've use that opportunity to accelerate our progress. A 1st rounder was going to come back regardless of who we trade it to, it was a matter of 1st plus what. If we didn't create a hile by trading Garrison m, we could've used Kesler to get something more valuable( pretty much anything) than Sbisa.

And it wasn't Kesler for Sutter and McCann. We also paid for it with Forsling, 2nd rounder and cap space.

I think we look ok right now primarily because of Horvat. Thing is trading Kesler, it was unlikely for us to be better short term, the hope is always to get youth and improve the team in the long run. The only real long term piece is McCann and we really we could've have more and be in a much better position.

 

[Intangibos]

I think you're missing the point, and the reason why the organization traded for him. Sutter is a better fit for this team (even if he is only marginally better). Faster, bigger and a RHS. Has always played tougher minutes than Bonino - who I fully agree did surprisingly well in hard matchups last year. I was a big fan of Bonino and defended him regularly. I do think playing with defensively excellent, possession-driving wingers in Higgins and sometimes Burrows helped him tremendously and I'm very excited to see what Higgins - Sutter - Burrows can do.

In a vacuum sure, I guess you can argue the merits for either. On a team in the Pacific division, who lost to a fast team in the playoffs, is full of LHS centers and has a very young top 6 C, there's no doubt Sutter is a better fit.

When you start taking downgrades in every trade because they 'fit' your team better, it's not going to end well. Garrison didn't 'fit' this team as well as Sbisa, either, apparently.

Even if Sutter is a better fit, we paid a hefty price to get him and will next year pay him a hefty long term salary with a NTC. Players get paid according to how good they are. Tanev is an excellent fit for this team, but he didn't get a 7M contract. He got fair value.

Ironically enough, Lack is probably a better fit than Miller for this team.

Also, Richardson was perfect for us. Our management talks about us getting tougher, but they let Richardson walk who always fought in those games where things got rough, and is by all accounts an excellent lockerroom guy. Another guy who really 'fits' the team but is let go. This whole "he fits the team better" argument only seems to be applied when it's for a player Benning acquired, but never when a player is let go needlessly.

 

[Drop the Sopel]

I think we look ok right now primarily because of Horvat. Thing is trading Kesler, it was unlikely for us to be better short term, the hope is always to get youth and improve the team in the long run. The only real long term piece is McCann and we really we could've have more and be in a much better position.

Sutter is signed for 6 years. That gives the Canucks 2 long term pieces for an over 30 Ryan Kesler. Which is what they should have been looking for in that return - 2 young pieces that could contribute long term.

With Henrik, Horvat and McCann all being left shot centremen, the right handed Sutter is a valuable addition to the group. Again, not something fans will put much stock into - that's something a coach will love though.

Most importantly though, this team needed to significantly improve it's footspeed from last season and replacing the slowest player on the team that played a lot of minutes in Bonino with arguably the best skater on the team that plays even bigger minutes really helped accomplish that. And through 4 games the team speed is night and day with where we were a year ago. Probably the most encouraging aspect to our start thus far, besides the play of Miller.

 

[Intangibos]

Sutter is signed for 6 years. That gives the Canucks 2 long term pieces for an over 30 Ryan Kesler. Which is what they should have been looking for in that return - 2 young pieces that could contribute long term.

With Henrik, Horvat and McCann all being left shot centremen, the right handed Sutter is a valuable addition to the group. Again, not something fans will put much stock into - that's something a coach will love though.

Most importantly though, this team needed to significantly improve it's footspeed from last season and replacing the slowest player on the team that played a lot of minutes in Bonino with arguably the best skater on the team that plays even bigger minutes really helped accomplish that. And through 4 games the team speed is night and day with where we were a year ago. Probably the most encouraging aspect to our start thus far, besides the play of Miller.

He also replaced Kassian who can certainly skate with Prust who looks like he's taking a bag skate whenever he's on the ice.

Sutter is signed for 6 years when we have Henrik, Horvat and McCann in the system, so are we going to have a 4.5M 4C between two plugs? I'd rather have a 2M 4C between two better wingers. Sutter being locked up for 6 years with an NTC with that massive contract isn't a good thing.

We paid the price for a marginal upgrade at best. Also, Mike Santorelli was a RH if it's that big an issue. Santorelli isn't some savior of a hockey player, but again I'd rather Bonino + Santo or Bonino + Richardson over Sutter + Cracknell any day of the week, and it's really not even close.

Even if Sutter is an upgrade, which is debatable, we had all the leverage in the world and still overpaid for him. They had to get rid of him and they got a player with an excellent contract in Bonino in return. I'd much rather have dealt Bonino at the deadline to a contender who would be thrilled to add a player like Bonino on his superb cap hit for some picks and run with Sedin-Horvat-Bonino-Richardson until the deadline. Then you could still have Cracknell as your depth option and move him to 4C with Richardson moving back up to 3C where he performed very well for us. I would put money on Sutter making it to UFA since the Pens couldn't re sign him, and considering we gave a massive long term contract to him with an NTC, I really doubt anyone would out bid us, especially considering the caliber of players that didn't get signed until late this year. We gave the highest contract in history to a player who never hit 40 points, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that we could lock him up next year. Even if we didn't, we would still have Richardson on the team and McCann breaking in along with Gaunce who looked great in the preseason.

A good manager should have been able to see that Sutter will almost certainly make it to free agency unless his rights are dealt, and even that doesn't guarantee he gets signed as we saw with players such as Hamhuis. Especially if the Canucks say in the media that there are a lot of excellent free agents this year like Sutter(and others) and the Canucks will be active in the FA market, which I don't think would qualify as tampering.

We overpaid every step of the way. His acquisition, his new cap hit next season, his term and his (retroactive)NTC.

 

[Diamonddog01]

Sutter is signed for 6 years when we have Henrik, Horvat and McCann in the system, so are we going to have a 4.5M 4C between two plugs? I'd rather have a 2M 4C between two better wingers. Sutter being locked up for 6 years with an NTC with that massive contract isn't a good thing.

So you genuinely believe Sedin will play for another 6 years? Hmm.

 

[Drop the Sopel]

He also replaced Kassian who can certainly skate with Prust who looks like he's taking a bag skate whenever he's on the ice.

Sutter is signed for 6 years when we have Henrik, Horvat and McCann in the system, so are we going to have a 4.5M 4C between two plugs? I'd rather have a 2M 4C between two better wingers.

We paid the price for a marginal upgrade at best.

Kassian can skate, but he doesn't. He plays the game standing still. Are you arguing the team doesn't look night and day faster from last season? The Kassian trade was obviously done for a reason - and no, contrary to popular opinion it's not because management doesn't like guys with tattoos.

If you're worried about having 4 good centremen, just look at the San José Sharks. Playing 2 natural centremen on a line together is actually an advantage, not a problem. It also insulates the team when a centre goes down to injury, which is absolutely huge in a cap era where you can't replace guys in season. McCann also looks like a guy you would love to have on Horvat's left side, let alone the option of moving Sutter to RW.

Last season we heard repeatedly that Mike Santorelli is a comparable player to Bonino. So we could find a Bonino calibre player easily with a 1 year, $1mil contract. How then can we argue we paid a high price to acquire Sutter?

 

[arttk]

Sutter is signed for 6 years. That gives the Canucks 2 long term pieces for an over 30 Ryan Kesler. Which is what they should have been looking for in that return - 2 young pieces that could contribute long term.

With Henrik, Horvat and McCann all being left shot centremen, the right handed Sutter is a valuable addition to the group. Again, not something fans will put much stock into - that's something a coach will love though.

Most importantly though, this team needed to significantly improve it's footspeed from last season and replacing the slowest player on the team that played a lot of minutes in Bonino with arguably the best skater on the team that plays even bigger minutes really helped accomplish that. And through 4 games the team speed is night and day with where we were a year ago. Probably the most encouraging aspect to our start thus far, besides the play of Miller.

It's not like a league secret that Bonino was slow. If they don't like that he was slow, then don't freaking target him.

I don't think anyone, well almost anyone anyways, will dispute the need to trade Kesler. What we question is what we got in return.

We did not get Sutter and McCann and Sbisa with just Kesler. We gave up a 2nd rounder and Forsling and a lot of cap space.
A) Taking in Sbisa is a negative, having him locked up makes it even worse.
B) Forsling seems like a prospect given up too soon. If he becomes a good offensive dman, then this deal is going to look a lot worse. Time will tell on this one.
C) a 1st rounder is pretty much a basis for any deal involving Kesler.
D) Bonino despite his short coming can put up more points than Sutter and is like what 1 year older but on a dirt cheap contract. Slag on him all you want, if he was really that bad then why the hell was he targeted in the first place. And if he is really truly that bad, then surely Sutter will out perform him. What we know so far is Sutter has yet to outperform Bonino, so until that happens, to say Sutter is a much better assets is just an uninformed opinion. And being fast doesn't make a player good.

 

[Diamonddog01]

When you start taking downgrades in every trade because they 'fit' your team better, it's not going to end well. Garrison didn't 'fit' this team as well as Sbisa, either, apparently.

Even if Sutter is a better fit, we paid a hefty price to get him and will next year pay him a hefty long term salary with a NTC. Players get paid according to how good they are. Tanev is an excellent fit for this team, but he didn't get a 7M contract. He got fair value.

Ironically enough, Lack is probably a better fit than Miller for this team.

Also, Richardson was perfect for us. Our management talks about us getting tougher, but they let Richardson walk who always fought in those games where things got rough, and is by all accounts an excellent lockerroom guy. Another guy who really 'fits' the team but is let go. This whole "he fits the team better" argument only seems to be applied when it's for a player Benning acquired, but never when a player is let go needlessly.

You've just stated that Sutter 'may' be better than Bonino, so how exactly is that a downgrade again?

Hefty price to get him? You mean Bonino and a longshot porspect? Hefty contract, ie 2M more than Bonino? It's hard to take you seriously when you use hyperbole to describe literally everything you don't agree with or like.

Richardson priced himself out of the market, you complain about Sutter's contract, and even recognize that there aren't that many centre spots to go around, but then you want to give Richardson several years at 2M? Huh?

 

[arttk]

So you genuinely believe Sedin will play for another 6 years? Hmm.

Well didn't news come out the other day they want to play 2 more years after their current deal ends.

Even if they regress to 3rd liners then, still going to have an issue with Sutter locked for 6 years.

 

[Diamonddog01]

Well didn't news come out the other day they want to play 2 more years after their current deal ends.

Even if they regress to 3rd liners then, still going to have an issue with Sutter locked for 6 years.

That's not an issue, that's called planning ahead. We'll have a top 9 C locked up for 4 more years after they retire. Prudent.

 

[Drop the Sopel]

We did not get Sutter and McCann and Sbisa with just Kesler. We gave up a 2nd rounder and Forsling and a lot of cap space.

That's nonsense. Gustav Forsling wasn't even a Canuck when we traded for Sutter and we didn't deal a 2nd Rd pick. We moved down in the draft - a point in the draft in which there historically has been very little separating the quality of picks.

 

[arttk]

You've just stated that Sutter 'may' be better than Bonino, so how exactly is that a downgrade again?

Hefty price to get him? You mean Bonino and a longshot porspect? Hefty contract, ie 2M more than Bonino? It's hard to take you seriously when you use hyperbole to describe literally everything you don't agree with or like.

Richardson priced himself out of the market, you complain about Sutter's contract, and even recognize that there aren't that many centre spots to go around, but then you want to give Richardson several years at 2M? Huh?

Bonino is paid 1.9 with no NTC for 2 more years.
Sutter is paid 3.4 now with a NTC and 4.3 for 5 more years after.

Bonino + Richardson is still cheaper than Sutter.

 

[me2]

You've just stated that Sutter 'may' be better than Bonino, so how exactly is that a downgrade again?

Hefty price to get him? You mean Bonino and a longshot porspect? Hefty contract, ie 2M more than Bonino? It's hard to take you seriously when you use hyperbole to describe literally everything you don't agree with or like.

Richardson priced himself out of the market, you complain about Sutter's contract, and even recognize that there aren't that many centre spots to go around, but then you want to give Richardson several years at 2M? Huh?

You could have taken a 1st and waited for Sutter as a UFA (or equivalent).

 

[Diamonddog01]

Bonino is paid 1.9 with no NTC for 2 more years.
Sutter is paid 3.4 now with a NTC and 4.3 for 5 more years after.

Bonino + Richardson is still cheaper than Sutter.

And what do you think Bonino will get in 2 years after his contract is up?

For one season (next year) Bonino & Richardson is cheaper. That's it.

 

[arttk]

That's not an issue, that's called planning ahead. We'll have a top 9 C locked up for 4 more years after they retire. Prudent.

No it's not, if McCann pans out, we are going to be paying 4.3M to a 4th line center. Add Dorsert to that line, we are paying a min 7M to our 4th line.

 

[Diamonddog01]

You could have taken a 1st and waited for Sutter as a UFA (or equivalent).

How often to players make it to unrestricted free agency these days? Whose to say Rutherford doesn't trade him to someone else?

Seems like a rather risky, as well as improbable, approach to acquiring a player.

 

[Drop the Sopel]

No it's not, if McCann pans out, we are going to be paying 4.3M to a 4th line center.

Do you watch the San José Sharks? Aware of the makeup of their forward corps at all?

 

[Diamonddog01]

No it's not, if McCann pans out, we are going to be paying 4.3M to a 4th line center. Add Dorsert to that line, we are paying a min 7M to our 4th line.

What? If McCann pans out, which coincidentally and most likely will be in 2 years, ie just when the Sedins retire, Sutter will be playing 3rd line minutes.

 

[arttk]

And what do you think Bonino will get in 2 years after his contract is up?

For one season (next year) Bonino & Richardson is cheaper. That's it.

Doesn't matter, he doesn't have a NTC, we could flip him at the deadline for a 1st rounder. His minimal cap hit would make him attractive. With McCann's emergence, that would make sense as well.

Not to mention Cassels or Gaunce would be ready for the 4th line center role.

 

[arttk]

What? If McCann pans out, which coincidentally and most likely will be in 2 years, ie just when the Sedins retire, Sutter will be playing 3rd line minutes.

Except the Sedins want to play 2 more years after the current contract expires.

 

[Intangibos]

So you genuinely believe Sedin will play for another 6 years? Hmm.

Sedin will be playing until the end of their contracts. Horvat is quite clearly ready now and one of Gaunce and McCann will be playing next year, if not both. Sutter's role on this team will be 4C by the time the Sedins retire since both Gaunce and McCann look like they will be NHLers.

Kassian can skate, but he doesn't. He plays the game standing still. Are you arguing the team doesn't look night and day faster from last season? The Kassian trade was obviously done for a reason - and no, contrary to popular opinion it's not because management doesn't like guys with tattoos.

If you're worried about having 4 good centremen, just look at the San José Sharks. Playing 2 natural centremen on a line together is actually an advantage, not a problem. It also insulates the team when a centre goes down to injury, which is absolutely huge in a cap era where you can't replace guys in season. McCann also looks like a guy you would love to have on Horvat's left side, let alone the option of moving Sutter to RW.

Last season we heard repeatedly that Mike Santorelli is a comparable player to Bonino. So we could find a Bonino calibre player easily with a 1 year, $1mil contract. How then can we argue we paid a high price to acquire Sutter?

Kassian standing still is still faster than Prust. Also, I don't want Sutter in the top 6, he hasn't shown anything in his career to date showing he is a top 6 player regardless if he's on the wing or at C.

You've just stated that Sutter 'may' be better than Bonino, so how exactly is that a downgrade again?

Hefty price to get him? You mean Bonino and a longshot porspect? Hefty contract, ie 2M more than Bonino? It's hard to take you seriously when you use hyperbole to describe literally everything you don't agree with or like.

Richardson priced himself out of the market, you complain about Sutter's contract, and even recognize that there aren't that many centre spots to go around, but then you want to give Richardson several years at 2M? Huh?

I only say Sutter is arguably better than Bonino to appease those who believe that when it certainly isn't the case in when you look at any type of statistics and the way they play. I just don't want the thread to devolve into an argument about Sutter being the greatest defensive center of our generation or some nonsense. Bonino is at the very worst a slight downgrade, but in reality he's probably better than Sutter while on a cheaper, better contract. Also, that longshot prospect was acquired for one of the scoring leaders in the SHL right now. After we acquired him, it turns out we apparently didn't scout him at all because management decided his skating wasn't NHL level. Oops! We also gave them a higher pick. We got the worse player on the worse contract and added for it. If you call Clendening a middling prospect, then you have to admit that Benning got absolutely fleeced by Chicago anyway.

Richardson priced himself right out of the market by getting signed on day 1 while other players had to wait around. Absolutely for sure. Sutter next year makes more than Richardson and Bonino would have, plus there is a good chance Richardson would have taken a slight pay cut to stay here and avoid moving. Plus Richardson wouldn't have got the NTC that Sutter got, and burying him in the minors is easier due to the way that works now, though I doubt he would be unmovable unless his play declined significantly.

I'm sorry that you're offended that people disagree with you, but I'm not using hyperbole or unfair arguments to explain my reasoning . I've even liked some of Benning's moves, and gave him the benefit of the doubt on some of his trades early on and the Clendening trade. Just quite frankly, most of his moves have been objectively bad.

Not only that, but like I said, Bonino could have been used to acquire a pick at the deadline and then we either get Sutter at free agency since he 100% doesn't get signed by the Pens, or we trade like a 5th for his rights and still come out ahead of where we are now. Ugh, so much hyperbole in that argument!

 

[opendoor]

What? If McCann pans out, which coincidentally and most likely will be in 2 years, ie just when the Sedins retire, Sutter will be playing 3rd line minutes.

Why would the Sedins retire in 2 years if they're still playing at a high level?

 

[Diamonddog01]

Doesn't matter, he doesn't have a NTC, we could flip him at the deadline for a 1st rounder. His minimal cap hit would make him attractive. With McCann's emergence, that would make sense as well.

This is all fantasy dude. First of all McCann may not even make the team this year, or even the next. He's looked good in one game and mediocre in the others. It would've been incredibly foolish to go into this season with Sedin & Horvat in the top 9 and praying / hoping McCann is good enough to make the team.

Yes, we could trade all of our good players for prospects, but the organization would like to remain competitive. I'm fine with that personally. Rather that the bring our prospects up in a culture of losing and defeat a la the coilers.

 

[Diamonddog01]

Why would the Sedins retire in 2 years if they're still playing at a high level?

The other poster quoted them saying that, not me. Regardless I doubt they'll be playing for another 6 years.