Canadian Government Freezing Hockey Canada Funding- (2018 Canada World Jr Team Alleged Sexual Assault)

[Nut Upstrom]

I hadn't come to this board for awhile and now I kind of wish I had stayed away. So much awfulness in big sports nowadays.

I hear you. I've been on these disgusting assault threads so much that I just learned about the tkachuk trade an hour ago.

 

[H3ckt1k]

Proving intent is almost always impossible in any situation. That really doesn't matter.

The girl and her family prioritized their own financial gain over the risk to other females by staying silent.

Are there no mods looking at this thread? Why are people still allowed to post bullshit like this about a very serious issue?

I hadn't come to this board for awhile and now I kind of wish I had stayed away. So much awfulness in big sports nowadays.

Careful, people are going to be telling you that theres awfulness in life and its not a big sports thing

 

[Ncit3]

The police already investigated and they found no evidence of sexual assault.

You're actually calling the police liars.

As we know that police never lie. Or make mistakes. Or cover things up. Or perpetrate the same shit they are supposed to protect people from.

I'd like to say you're something more severe but since we're on a public board I'll just say you're naive if you don't believe that a large number of officers are are not looking out for the well-being of people. And that a large number of police are misogynistic assholes okay with these types of actions being performed by young men.

 

[Craigo85]

I have a feeling Lupul was at the center of this gang bang

You know, I was catching up my wife about both of the cases (she's basically oblivious to most news coverage/current events), when I told her the names of all the players, especially the 7 former Leafs on the 2003 team ... First thing she said was Lupul was probably one of them and I said that wouldn't shock me.

 

[PostBradMalone]

The police already investigated and they found no evidence of sexual assault.

You're actually calling the police liars.

The police themselves chose to re-open the investigation. Does that mean they are calling themselves liars?

 

[wetcoast]

You mean, the investigators from the two investigations that have been proven to be completely bogus?

This simply isn't true though, at best one could say the first 2 investigations are incomplete because of the victim not wanting to cooperate and others as well.

A complete bogus investigation would have come to a bogus conclusion one would think.

It's obvious this girl was pressured by extremely powerful individuals into not pursuing the matter back then.

We don't have that information but perhaps it was obvious to you even before you found any "evidence?

It might very well be what you say here is completely true but we don't know enough facts to come to that conclusion and since you thought the 2 investigations were completely bogus that information certainly didn't come from there right?

And you can't use corrupted investigations as evidence that the victim did not want to collaborate with them.

Exactly how were the investigations corrupted or even bogus for that matter?

Easy to just say things but a little harder to provide even a shed of plausible evidence.

Did you even bother to consider that maybe jumping to conclusions might not be the most useful thing here?

 

[Leafsfan74]

What is peculiar to me is that even it a victim didn't want to participate (due to the NDA I presume) and police want to use that as an excuse to NOT pursie charges, I am astonished that names haven't been leaked.

If this occurred in the U.S, names would have been leaked and media would call these players and ask them point blank if they were involved.

Even if not taking a position on if leaking the names is right or wrong, this silence is deafening in it's rarity in big league sports (assuming some made the NHL).

We hear leaks of trades all the time in different sports, but somehow this remains under wraps years or even decades later.

 

[Pip]

Proving intent is almost always impossible in any situation. That really doesn't matter.

The girl and her family prioritized their own financial gain over the risk to other females by staying silent.

What is this shit? Give your head a shake

 

[wetcoast]

So HC is just screwed with a certain segment of society I guess because if they do a good thing like here (or when they went directly public with the 2003 allegation in contrast to what they didn't do before) they are still all bad.

How exactly does this help in any healing or awareness advancements.

 

[Samsquanch]

100% Correct. Building on this, a "yes" can be rescinded at any point as well. You can feel comfortable with something and then say no 15 minutes later. At that point both the other party needs to stop whatever they are doing.

I feel like this is something a lot of people in this thread don't comprehend.

I feel like anyone with half of a brain comprehends this. Saying no is a simple concept that every person - from the mentally challenged and all the way up the ladder to the geniuses of society - we all learned as a child that if someone says no or stop in any situation that requires their consent- and you keep doing it - your being bad. And depending on what it is that your doing - you might even now be a criminal.

What you dont know, nor I, nor anyone here knows - is whether or not her consent was revoked at any point during that night. It appears like the okay was given at one point before, and then once again afterwards if we go by the video. But again we dont know for sure any of key details about what was really said or how it went down behind the scenes. Thats a fact. The criminal case hinges on it.

But should it be a case where no one was given any indication that her consent was revoked - this whole mess becomes a lot less cut and dry for me. And I personally have a hard time placing a rapist label on someone (a drunk teenaged kid) who didnt know they were actually raping someone until they found out days later through a surprise visit from the authorities.

I do believe that its okay to be sexually adventurous in a responsible setting (not talking about this event just in general). And the basic understanding from all consenting adults in the bedroom is that "no" means "no" if anyone gets a little bit too carried away in the moment. It happens. But all it takes is saying "no" or "stop" - and that will be enough to immediately stop 99% of law biding citizens from whatever their doing.

Those words might not stop a gang rape from happening in a prison or in the backroom of a bikers clubhouse - but I have at least a bit of doubt that 8 prominent young hockey players in the eye of the public and with huge future stakes to lose, would all be malicious and evil enough to ignore her pleas to stop or any obvious sign of distress, and then just go ahead with raping her anyways.

Even if they were all deranged sociopaths that were more worried about their own self interests than harming another person - I still find it hard to believe they would all just ignore the fact that they would be majorly jeopardizing their future careers and go ahead with committing a major crime thats full of personal risk. Something just doesnt fully add up for me, personally speaking.

It might have gone down the exact way she said it did. But Im allowed to have at least a bit of doubt on that based on what we know today. So ill avoid making any kind of real judgement whatsoever for now - as should all of you,

 

[theVladiator]

So HC is just screwed with a certain segment of society I guess because if they do a good thing like here (or when they went directly public with the 2003 allegation in contrast to what they didn't do before) they are still all bad.

How exactly does this help in any healing or awareness advancements.

Well, for one, it gives HC an excellent opportunity to educate themselves about consent.

Of course failing at basic etiquette isn't anywhere as bad as covering up sexual assaults, but it is just sad seeing HC fail at those smaller things too.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

No, 05 was the stacked roster. I think you're thinking of the 03 Draft which was pretty stacked (and a number of guys from the 03 draft were on the 05 WJC team). The 03 roster (which didn't win gold) had a number of guys that went on to be depth guys but the only real future star on the team was Marc-Andre Fleury.

Ya your right was thinking of the 05 team which and 03 draft

 

[BayStBullies]

So HC is just screwed with a certain segment of society I guess because if they do a good thing like here (or when they went directly public with the 2003 allegation in contrast to what they didn't do before) they are still all bad.

How exactly does this help in any healing or awareness advancements.

The lesson for them is that they can't spend out of problems. They shouldn't shelter rapists or systemically allow these issues to exist.

 

[centipede2233]

Kinda weird how no names have been leaked….

 

[Random Comment]

I feel like anyone with half of a brain comprehends this. Saying no is a simple concept that every person - from the mentally challenged and all the way up the ladder to the geniuses of society - we all learned as a child that if someone says no or stop in any situation that requires their consent- and you keep doing it - your being bad. And depending on what it is that your doing - you might even now be a criminal.

What you dont know, nor I, nor anyone here knows - is whether her consent was revoked at any point that night. It sounds like the okay was given at one point. But again we dont know for sure any of the important details about what was really said or how it went down. Thats a fact. The criminal case hinges on it.

But should it be a case where no one was given any indication that her consent was revoked - this whole mess becomes a lot less cut and dry for me. And I personally have a hard time placing a rapist label on someone (a drunk teenaged kid) who didnt know they were actually raping someone until they found out days later through a surprise visit from the authorities.

I do believe that its okay to be sexually adventurous in a responsible setting (not talking about this event just in general). And the basic understanding from all consenting adults in the bedroom is that "no" means "no" if anyone gets a little bit too carried away in the moment. It happens. But all it takes is saying "no" or "stop" - and that will be enough to immediately stop 99% of law biding citizens from whatever their doing.

Those words might not stop a gang rape from happening in a prison or in the backroom of a bikers clubhouse - but I have at least a bit of doubt that 8 prominent young hockey players in the eye of the public and with huge future stakes to lose, would all be malicious and evil enough to ignore her pleas to stop or any obvious sign of distress, and then just go ahead with raping her anyways.

Even if they were all deranged sociopaths that were more worried about their own self interests than harming another person - I still find it hard to believe they would all just ignore the fact that they would be majorly jeopardizing their future careers.

It might have gone down the exact way she said it did. But Im allowed to have at least a bit of doubt on that based on what we know today. So ill avoid making any kind of judgement whatsoever for now - as should all of you,

Bingo. This ain’t a clear cut case the way most posters are acting like. Going to be a v difficult to prove, but I think it will be a great case study for all future athletes. Hopefully avoiding these similar situations.

 

[Melrose Munch]

I think the smart people realize this is only getting started

I find it funny how 15 years ago we were talking about abusive parents and now a lot of their kids are trash. Maybe we should have nipped this in the bud in 2006 after Patrick O'Sullivan spoke out?

 

[Samsquanch]

Bingo. This ain’t a clear cut case the way most posters are acting like. Going to be a v difficult to prove, but I think it will be a great case study for all future athletes. Hopefully avoiding these similar situations.

Agreed. I really do put a sizeable chunk of the blame on team Canada here myself.

This was an event for what were essentially teenaged kids. It should have been a dry evening. And Im sure that many blind eyes were turned with regards to the players drinking and partying. And aside from that, Im sure TC have continuously played a big part in creating a sense of entitlement and huge ego's in the heads of their special chosen players/

When instead they should have been teaching them humility and about being model Canadian citizens and athletes. Role models for all of the young kids who play the game and help to pay for TC to go compete for us internationally through their insane minor hockey fees. They should have always been enforcing them to follow a high code of conduct while representing the maple leaf in any capacity, instead of treating them like the princes of Canada. Even more so for the gold winners...

The US national program does it better imo, more of a professional approach. Their kids are all expected to be students preparing for college away from their hockey lives. They have more responsibilities. The US drinking age is appropriately set at 21yrs old (Lets be honest they have it right as of today because the maturity level of kids is only going down as time goes forward). While the CHL players may or may not have finished high school, and dont know anything about life other than getting special treatment for being a great hockey player. Oh and most of them are in the process of hitting the legal drinking age for the time too....Lots of life long regrets/cringy memories come out of those first couple years of being a legal bargoer for most of us I think...

But the fact that Team Canada spends far more money paying for silence rather than putting it towards more general awareness and education/future prevention, tells you all you need to know about how they run their own house, And make no mistake - it was their house and their own rowdy kids that threw the house party, so they are fully liable for the mess whatever damages followed after it.. Just like a drunk driver that kills someone after leaving a house party he was getting served at - the homeowner at the party is where the buck ultimately stops at.

And even if the boys are ultimately proven to be innocent of rape (which I believe they will be), I dont blame the girls mother for going crazy and out for the blood of TC, and can see how she might be much more convinced that it turned into rape than anyone else in that room felt that night (including her own morally conflicted daughter).

And I still wouldnt be bothered at all that they got a settlement from Team Canada for being the enablers that they appear to be. And I would not call the girl or her family gold diggers even if the players are sincerely innocent of rape (just a bunch of assholes that abused their celebrity status in a terrible way).. I think it was still an ugly night and a clear abuse of the maple leaf by TC and its players no matter what the verdict.

This is anything but an easy or clear situation because there were just failures on so many levels by so many different parties imo.

 

[Nut Upstrom]

So HC is just screwed with a certain segment of society I guess because if they do a good thing like here (or when they went directly public with the 2003 allegation in contrast to what they didn't do before) they are still all bad.

How exactly does this help in any healing or awareness advancements.

How about they get some fresh leadership who are not associated with covering possible criminal actions over a period of years? That might be a good first step. I'm glad the charity called them out for this PR move - their long term modus oporendi shows that they really don't give a damn beyond the public optics.

 

[Cleatus]

You know, I was catching up my wife about both of the cases (she's basically oblivious to most news coverage/current events), when I told her the names of all the players, especially the 7 former Leafs on the 2003 team ... First thing she said was Lupul was probably one of them and I said that wouldn't shock me.

If Lupul was involved, I'd be extremely disappointed because I was a big fan, and with his male model looks, it's hard to comprehend how he'd possibly need to force himself upon anyone (unless he really is a rapist PoS).

 

[H3ckt1k]

If Lupul was involved, I'd be extremely disappointed because I was a big fan, and with his male model looks, it's hard to comprehend how he'd possibly need to force himself upon anyone (unless he really is a rapist PoS).

Shockingly enough, even if you're built like a male model AND rich, not every girl wants to have sex with you

Bingo. This ain’t a clear cut case the way most posters are acting like. Going to be a v difficult to prove, but I think it will be a great case study for all future athletes. Hopefully avoiding these similar situations.

Not raping women is a fantastic strategy for them going forward to avoid these similar situations

 

[Uncle Rotter]

The US national program does it better imo, more of a professional approach. Their kids are all expected to be students preparing for college away from their hockey lives. They have more responsibilities.

They billet with families, where nothing goes wrong...

 

[Samsquanch]

They billet with families, where nothing goes wrong...

Its unavoidable in hockey - at a certain level, you have to go to wherever the best team/league is calling you from. And its very rarely at home.

 

[Mingus Dew]

Proving intent is almost always impossible in any situation. That really doesn't matter.

The girl and her family prioritized their own financial gain over the risk to other females by staying silent.

This post has already been ripped to shreds thankfully.

The state proves intent all the time. It’s called mens rea.

 

[wetcoast]

Well, for one, it gives HC an excellent opportunity to educate themselves about consent.

Of course failing at basic etiquette isn't anywhere as bad as covering up sexual assaults, but it is just sad seeing HC fail at those smaller things too.

Seriously are people nitpicking about HC giving a donation and then naming the hotline so actual real people might hear about it in a sound bite?

The tweet mentioned could have both been upset with HC and what they did in the past and still do a PSA about their organization being negative about an entire situation certainly doesn't help overall IMO.

Also the term "cover up" is being used very loosely around here by some and isn't really supported by the facts of the matter.

That's a problem when people close their minds and make a decision without all of the information.

 

[wetcoast]

How about they get some fresh leadership who are not associated with covering possible criminal actions over a period of years?

Not going public with something is a bit different than covering up something and actually following the facts might help.

Everyone agrees that HC needs to make changes and when they do they are still chastised like in your quote below.

That might be a good first step. I'm glad the charity called them out for this PR move - their long term modus oporendi shows that they really don't give a damn beyond the public optics.

So if HC doesn't make the changes you want but still do something positive it's always going to be tainted as a PR move 100% and not perhaps something else as well?

I guess if that's the case then don't have HC, just have smaller provincial bodies and let amateur hockey have no central leadership of focus and heck just skip international tournaments and inter provincial ones as well.

That would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

HC immediately contacted the police and issued a press release when informed of the article about the 2003 indictment in Halifax, yet some of the firsts posts on here were still 100% negative about it.

That type of reaction just isn't helpful and won't help lead to change.