Canadian Government Freezing Hockey Canada Funding- (2018 Canada World Jr Team Alleged Sexual Assault)

[Leafsfan74]

I feel like anyone with half of a brain comprehends this. Saying no is a simple concept that every person - from the mentally challenged and all the way up the ladder to the geniuses of society - we all learned as a child that if someone says no or stop in any situation that requires their consent- and you keep doing it - your being bad. And depending on what it is that your doing - you might even now be a criminal.

What you dont know, nor I, nor anyone here knows - is whether or not her consent was revoked at any point during that night. It appears like the okay was given at one point before, and then once again afterwards if we go by the video. But again we dont know for sure any of key details about what was really said or how it went down behind the scenes. Thats a fact. The criminal case hinges on it.

But should it be a case where no one was given any indication that her consent was revoked - this whole mess becomes a lot less cut and dry for me. And I personally have a hard time placing a rapist label on someone (a drunk teenaged kid) who didnt know they were actually raping someone until they found out days later through a surprise visit from the authorities.

I do believe that its okay to be sexually adventurous in a responsible setting (not talking about this event just in general). And the basic understanding from all consenting adults in the bedroom is that "no" means "no" if anyone gets a little bit too carried away in the moment. It happens. But all it takes is saying "no" or "stop" - and that will be enough to immediately stop 99% of law biding citizens from whatever their doing.

Those words might not stop a gang rape from happening in a prison or in the backroom of a bikers clubhouse - but I have at least a bit of doubt that 8 prominent young hockey players in the eye of the public and with huge future stakes to lose, would all be malicious and evil enough to ignore her pleas to stop or any obvious sign of distress, and then just go ahead with raping her anyways.

Even if they were all deranged sociopaths that were more worried about their own self interests than harming another person - I still find it hard to believe they would all just ignore the fact that they would be majorly jeopardizing their future careers and go ahead with committing a major crime thats full of personal risk. Something just doesnt fully add up for me, personally speaking.

It might have gone down the exact way she said it did. But Im allowed to have at least a bit of doubt on that based on what we know today. So ill avoid making any kind of real judgement whatsoever for now - as should all of you,

This is a Canadian cultural issue about power. Whether it's corrupt politicians, abusive covert police in Thunder Bay, Toronto, OPP or RCMP, or in this case, athletes who are protected by deep pockets; Canadians learn that power ensures a lack of accountability.

In some countries, those who take an oath to defend citizens rights and principles pursue the most powerful abusers of said principles. In Canada, they PROTECT and ignore powerful targets and instead focus on the low hanging fruit, the path of least resistance against those who don't have the resources to defend themselves.

When you have young people aware of this hierarchy of general cowardice, of course it will be exploited. Throw in alcohol and a group mentality of diffusion of responsibility and it becomes substantially more problematic.

 

[I am toxic]

Hockey Canada did not go public with the 2003 information until forced to two weeks later by Westhead. Or by whomever reported it to the Halifax police.

If that had not happened, Hockey Canada would still be hiding the 2003 information.

Hockey Canada siphoned funds from little kids playing hockey - mandatory fees - to create a secret $14million slush fund for paying attack dogs to investigate and silence plaintiffs and pay out hush money for serious, credible rape allegations.

Hockey Canada employs the language and tactics of defending rape enabling culture and the toxic code of silence, and backs those words up with millions to ensure alleged rapists never face scrutiny.

Virtually no other segment of our society has a code of silence that protects each other - "I saw a video of a half dozen guys raping an unconscious woman, so I deleted it" - forged in closed door locker rooms, in an atmosphere where they brag and glorify putting the "team" ahead of all else, trained in violence, backed by an old boys network who have secreted away millions to ensure things stay this way.

Did I say virtually? Let me know of any other segment of society that has all those elements.

If I was a rapist, I would look to Hockey Canada as the near perfect model to allow me to advance my rapey ways.

Other rapists may choose different models. To each their own.

 

[Nihiliste]

It really is a simple question isn't it?

All else equal, if a woman accuses a man of raping her then who do you believe? Assume you have no real evidence or knowledge of the event in question. You just know that Woman A said that Man B raped her.

When you look at it through that very simple lens "we need to wait and see" is not a satisfactory answer. Maybe "innocent until proven guilty" isn't always the right standard? Maybe that standard reinforces certain power dynamics that are designed to perpetuate themselves?

And I'm a lawyer...

I get what you’re trying to to say here but actually don’t think this is helpful. If I have literally zero information about the people or the claim, I would actually suddenly shift into the wait and see camp, until I had at least a little bit of information to go on. If you asked me what the probability was that woman A was telling the truth based on historical cases, I would cite some studies that suggested the probability was high, but at the same time I can’t assume average statistics apply to any specific case if you tell me literally nothing

 

[RoadWarrior]

This post has already been ripped to shreds thankfully.

The state proves intent all the time. It’s called mens rea.

Well you can deny the facts all you want. What I said is true.

 

[RoadWarrior]

This is a Canadian cultural issue about power. Whether it's corrupt politicians, abusive covert police in Thunder Bay, Toronto, OPP or RCMP, or in this case, athletes who are protected by deep pockets; Canadians learn that power ensures a lack of accountability.

In some countries, those who take an oath to defend citizens rights and principles pursue the most powerful abusers of said principles. In Canada, they PROTECT and ignore powerful targets and instead focus on the low hanging fruit, the path of least resistance against those who don't have the resources to defend themselves.

When you have young people aware of this hierarchy of general cowardice, of course it will be exploited. Throw in alcohol and a group mentality of diffusion of responsibility and it becomes substantially more problematic.

Nice lecture. Unfortunately it doesn’t necessarily apply to this specific case. The power dynamic here was with the parents who could threaten to go public with the players sexual behaviour. Consensual or not they know that hockey Canada has money to pay them for silence.

Don’t underestimate the power of extortion.

 

[Jeune Poulet]

Seriously are people nitpicking about HC giving a donation and then naming the hotline so actual real people might hear about it in a sound bite?

Rich people perpetuating odious patterns and protecting criminals and then throwing cash at charities or the church is nothing new.

It's not nitpicking to point out that their donations are entirely self-serving and don't fix the issues. It's something that needs more attention. Hats off to an organization that spoke up about this instead of just accepting corruption money!

Also the term "cover up" is being used very loosely around here by some and isn't really supported by the facts of the matter.

You've said that since the start, despite all logic pointing to the contrary. And you maintain that despite the evidence mounting.

Hockey Canada's inhumane, crooked handling of the 2018 gang rape is 100% a coverup. From the second they were informed, Hockey Canada spent all its energy, 100% of it, protecting themselves and their players and doing their best to make the incident go away, with no interest whatsoever in finding out the truth, hearing out the victim or even making the slightest change. Even years later, during the federal committe hearing, you could see their answers were still attempts to lie and protect themselves. They just weren't smart enough to prepare adequately, thank God.

It's only in the last 10 days or so that they have fully realized that they can't get away with it, and that people like you, the "still waiting for the facts" crowd, can't drown out the voices that are asking for our institutions to do better.

 

[Leafsfan74]

Nice lecture. Unfortunately it doesn’t necessarily apply to this specific case. The power dynamic here was with the parents who could threaten to go public with the players sexual behaviour. Consensual or not they know that hockey Canada has money to pay them for silence.

Don’t underestimate the power of extortion.

There can always be such motivations, I am not naive in the how the world works. Not knowing all of the facts, I can't say one way or another if that is the case here.

However, my statement still stands. It isn't a lecture to point out the truth about Canada and the abuses of our police agencies which ensure the lack of accountability for those in positions of authority here.

For all the faults our closest allies might have, we are on a virtual island compared to them when it comes to unaccountable power and lack of transparency.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Nice lecture. Unfortunately it doesn’t necessarily apply to this specific case. The power dynamic here was with the parents who could threaten to go public with the players sexual behaviour. Consensual or not they know that hockey Canada has money to pay them for silence.

Don’t underestimate the power of extortion.

If nothing illegal happened (ie. fully consentual act of sex), then why the f*** would Hockey Canada give a damn about covering it up? In no, way, shape or form would they be worried that a consentual gangbang be a bad look for their players.

 

[Jeune Poulet]

That type of reaction just isn't helpful and won't help lead to change.

To see effective changes you need to recognize the problems. You have bickered with everyone in these threads or in the news that pointed the problems out or demanded immediate actions instead of just uttering empty words about "change".

I get that you're not a cartoon vilain and that in your own way, you feel you want to see changes but you never make any stand. It's not magically going to happen. You can't pontificate about others not helping the culture change and at the same time systematically oppose everyone that's helping, and throwing "likes" on some seriously twisted posts.

You've reached the point where you're shaming organizations that do some actual good because they refuse money from a corrupt entity. You need to seriously reconsider your thought patterns on these issues.

 

[francis246]

Rich people perpetuating odious patterns and protecting criminals and then throwing cash at charities or the church is nothing new.

It's not nitpicking to point out that their donations are entirely self-serving and don't fix the issues. It's something that needs more attention. Hats off to an organization that spoke up about this instead of just accepting corruption money!

You've said that since the start, despite all logic pointing to the contrary. And you maintain that despite the evidence mounting.

Hockey Canada's inhumane, crooked handling of the 2018 gang rape is 100% a coverup. From the second they were informed, Hockey Canada spent all its energy, 100% of it, protecting themselves and their players and doing their best to make the incident go away, with no interest whatsoever in finding out the truth, hearing out the victim or even making the slightest change. Even years later, during the federal committe hearing, you could see their answers were still attempts to lie and protect themselves. They just weren't smart enough to prepare adequately, thank God.

It's only in the last 10 days or so that they have fully realized that they can't get away with it, and that people like you, the "still waiting for the facts" crowd, can't drown out the voices that are asking for our institutions to do better.

It wasn’t a cover up. Hockey Canada responded to the allegations immediately. A cover up is avoiding doing anything at all and paying to make everything disappear.

An investigation was done right away. What Hockey Canada is wrong for is that after the investigation no disciplinary action was taken. That is what is the issue. They did the right thing by looking into the situation but ultimately there was no action taken afterwards and that is the systemic issue with Hockey Canada. The investigations don’t yield any changes within the culture of Hockey Canada’s structure.

It has nothing to do with a cover up. Every major sports organization has money set aside to deal with lawsuits and settlements. That isn’t really an issue; though it speaks to the culture and prevalence of assaults within the organization.

 

[cobra427]

Was there an independent investigation or just HC as the investigator? I know the Hawks hired an independent firm to investigate ultimately. Criminally I don't think this will go anywhere, 8 peoples words against 1, I'm not opining legally either way, don't know the facts. Something is wrong with this situation, some of, any of, one of, anybody, any player could have said no thanks, or this is a potentially bad situation and left, not wanting any part of it, did any player do that? Not one player exited? WTF, something is major wrong with nobody just saying NO and leaving.

The payoff and being swept under the rug, kept quiet, makes it look like wrong doing, a cover up, and more of the same culture that is supposed to be eliminated. Hopefully in the future, players avoid these situations while HC and other gate keepers/authorities deal with it differently.

It wasn’t a cover up. Hockey Canada responded to the allegations immediately. A cover up is avoiding doing anything at all and paying to make everything disappear.

An investigation was done right away. What Hockey Canada is wrong for is that after the investigation no disciplinary action was taken. That is what is the issue. They did the right thing by looking into the situation but ultimately there was no action taken afterwards and that is the systemic issue with Hockey Canada. The investigations don’t yield any changes within the culture of Hockey Canada’s structure.

It has nothing to do with a cover up. Every major sports organization has money set aside to deal with lawsuits and settlements. That isn’t really an issue; though it speaks to the culture and prevalence of assaults within the organization.

Sure, but HC is biased, they could have hired an independent investigator for an unbiased recomendation.

 

[francis246]

Was there an independent investigation or just HC as the investigator? I know the Hawks hired an independent firm to investigate ultimately. Criminally I don't think this will go anywhere, 8 peoples words against 1, I'm not opining legally either way, don't know the facts. Something is wrong with this situation, some of, any of, one of, anybody, any player could have said no thanks, or this is a potentially bad situation and left, not wanting any part of it, did any player do that? Not one player exited? WTF, something is major wrong with nobody just saying NO and leaving.

The payoff and being swept under the rug, kept quiet, makes it look like wrong doing, a cover up, and more of the same culture that is supposed to be eliminated. Hopefully in the future, players avoid these situations while HC and other gate keepers/authorities deal with it differently.


Sure, but HC is biased, they could have hired an independent investigator for an unbiased recomendation.

There was an independent investigation done by a firm but players were not required to participate, some players voluntarily participated in the initial investigation. The victim also did not want to pursue charges at that time and did not disclose names of those involved. The facts are out there.

I think what may have influenced the original investigation is that the victim was unwilling to cooperate at first which is really something that is sad. I can only imagine how she was feeling.

 

[NyQuil]

You can't pontificate about others not helping the culture change and at the same time systematically oppose everyone that's helping, and throwing "likes" on some seriously twisted posts.

The horror!

Thought policing an HF thread as a means to make substantial cultural change in the area of consent and rape is a pretty sizeable delusion of grandeur.

"I'm way more anti-rape than you" is the equivalent of "my Dad can beat up your Dad".

 

[I am toxic]

I am always amazed by how many people fall for the "independent" investigation falsehood. Hook, line and sinker.

Just kidding - I am not amazed. I wasn't born yesterday.

It is the furthest thing from "independent". The correct term is third party investigation, designed to protect the interests of the organization.

When an organization engages a third party to investigate, it is the organization that sets the terms, the organizaton pays the third party, the third party answers to the organization, and the third party only releases any report - assuming they even complete one - upon instruction from the organizaton. Sure, the third party investigator can offer a template engagement letter, but it is the organization that sets the terms. And get a report that they don't like? Bury it, and find another third party that will get them what they want to protect the interests of the organization.

In no world in any universe in the multiverse is that "independent".

But if I was hellbent on preserving rape-enabling culture, it is exactly how I would refer to it, knowing that people don't pay attention to details - remember the wording of the May 26 Hockey Canada statement? I do; where they lied about contacting the police as soon as Hockey Canada became aware of this matter in 2018 - and through repetition of falsehood ("independent" investigation, when it is in fact a third party investigation designed to protect the interests of the organization) people begin to restate the falsehood as the truth.

Brilliant. Getting other people to unknowingly - or worse, knowingly - do the dirty work for you, of preserving rape-enabling culture.

But restating a falsehood a billion times simply doesn't make it true.

One must state it a billion and one times. Then it is true. We are almost there.

Rapists everywhere, rejoice.

 

[Jeune Poulet]

It wasn’t a cover up. Hockey Canada responded to the allegations immediately. A cover up is avoiding doing anything at all and paying to make everything disappear.

That's exactly what happened.

An investigation was done right away.

Right away? When informed of the rape, they called the insurance company before even calling the police. That's how "concerned" these guys were.

What Hockey Canada is wrong for is that after the investigation no disciplinary action was taken. That is what is the issue. They did the right thing by looking into the situation

They hired an elite law firm that specializes in being hostile to rape plaitiffs. Like, world-reknown crooked lawyers.

They didn't put any measures or incentives in place for the players to cooperate. "No biggie guys, even if you refuse to talk to our bogus investigators, we'll see you in camp and then we'll party at the next orgy!" In other words, they didn't want the rapists to collaborate with the investigation.

And then, they used the special rape hush fund to pay the victim off in exchange for her complete silence. They then worded it in lawyer-speak as "the woman has chosen not to reveal the names of the people involved and we totally respect that, yo". Nobody smart is falling for that.

That's not "looking at the situation". That's burying the story.

To top it off, they also most probably swayed London Police into not putting much effort into their own investigation, which has since then also proven to be bogus. Which is why London PD are also launching a new investigation.

So, two large, publicly-funded institutions have admitted that each of their previous investigations on a gang rape were bogus. One has already apologized for it. The other will soon enough.

It's officially a massive coverup. One that is getting exposed more and more in the last few weeks.

 

[Static]

The horror!

Thought policing an HF thread as a means to make substantial cultural change in the area of consent and rape is a pretty sizeable delusion of grandeur.

"I'm way more anti-rape than you" is the equivalent of "my Dad can beat up your Dad".

Incredibly ironic comment considering it was a retort to a "if you don't know how to fix it don't complain" mentality.

Whether you like it or not grassroot education and awareness is how societal changes come about, especially now during a culture war where the mere public outcry of terrible behavior is equated as being as bad as the behavior itself.

 

[NyQuil]

Incredibly ironic comment considering it was a retort to a "if you don't know how to fix it don't complain" mentality.

Whether you like it or not grassroot education and awareness is how societal changes come about, especially now during a culture war where the mere public outcry of terrible behavior is equated as being as bad as the behavior itself.

Don't worry, I'll "like" all the right posts from now on.

 

[Static]

Don't worry, I'll "like" all the right posts from now on.

If you choose to be childish that's on you.

 

[NyQuil]

If you choose to be childish that's on you.

I'm helping already.

 

[Jeune Poulet]

The horror!

Thought policing an HF thread as a means to make substantial cultural change in the area of consent and rape is a pretty sizeable delusion of grandeur.

"I'm way more anti-rape than you" is the equivalent of "my Dad can beat up your Dad".

Oof.

Any thoughts on what is actually going on with Hockey Canada and the gang rape? Or did you just drop by to gratuitously bicker without offering your thoughts on the actual issues?

 

[Pink Mist]

The horror!

Thought policing an HF thread as a means to make substantial cultural change in the area of consent and rape is a pretty sizeable delusion of grandeur.

"I'm way more anti-rape than you" is the equivalent of "my Dad can beat up your Dad".

Didnt you "thought police" earlier in the thread (or one of the other rape threads on this board) when someone said that lawyers are awful?

 

[NyQuil]

Oof.

Any thoughts on what is actually going on with Hockey Canada and the gang rape? Or did you just drop by to gratuitously bicker without offering your thoughts on the actual issues?

I don't see a lot of new ground being broken in the last few days so posters are just accusing each other of not being sufficiently outraged.

Personally I think the men's Canadian National Team should be banned from competing at all age levels for 10 years, and Hockey Canada should be completely abolished. It should take that amount of time to properly set up a new organization that is free from the stink of this one. An adhoc temporary organization can be funded for women's teams.

Furthermore, while eight were only involved in the actual event, it's pretty obvious that the entire team knew because that's how locker rooms work, and with no one coming forward, everyone on that World Junior Team should be suspended from their current teams without pay using morality clauses in their contracts for a duration depending on their level of involvement.

Anyone affiliated with Hockey Canada over the last 20 years should be investigated and fired from their current employment if it is determined that they had any inclination of the existence of the risk management fund, using public pressure on their existing employers.

Anything less won't make a difference.

Didnt you "thought police" earlier in the thread (or one of the other rape threads on this board) when someone said that lawyers are awful?

The difference being that I don't think that my intercession is going to magically change how the community perceives lawyers writ large.

It requires significant, well-organized and persistent action, not "likes" on an internet message board.

 

[Static]

Oof.

Any thoughts on what is actually going on with Hockey Canada and the gang rape? Or did you just drop by to gratuitously bicker without offering your thoughts on the actual issues?

It's interesting what actually upsets some people in here. It's less the act and more the conversation around the act that provokes a reaction. I don't think many would be able to really put into words why that is, that would require some uncomfortable introspection.

There really is no reality where education on sexual assault leads to a worse environment, even in an informal setting.

But, as you can tell, it really brings a visceral reaction from some. They should ask themselves why.

 

[Jeune Poulet]

I don't see a lot of new ground being broken in the last few days so posters are just accusing each other of not being sufficiently outraged.

I think it's jaded to boil it down to just that. People have shared incredibly interesting articles and offered thoughts, some that didn't necessarly cross my mind before. It's an ongoing conversation.

Personally I think the men's Canadian National Team should be banned from competing at all age levels for 10 years, and Hockey Canada should be completely abolished. It should take that amount of time to properly set up a new organization that is free from the stink of this one.

Furthermore, while eight were only involved in the actual event, it's pretty obvious that the entire team knew because that's how locker rooms work, and with no one coming forward, everyone on that World Junior Team should be suspended from their current teams without pay using morality clauses in their contracts for a duration depending on their level of involvement.

Anyone affiliated with Hockey Canada over the last 20 years should be investigated and fired from their current employment if it is determined that they had any inclination of the existence of the risk management fund, using public pressure on their existing employers.

Anything less won't make a difference.

I really have to strongly with the general idea here, if not the specifics (like number of years, etc...).

The IIHF also really needs to strongly intervene. It can't be just the country self-policing, otherwise it sends the wrong message to the rest of the world by the IIHF.

The difference being that I don't think that my intercession is going to magically change how the community perceives lawyers writ large.

That's not a very generous reading of my posts. I'M not saying abything is magical, BTW.

But I do know that throughout the years, some of my positions on issues like sexual assaults and the legal system have evolved, thanks to writers, articles, survivors sharing their thoughts, conversations with friends and yes, once in a while some posts on forums or social media will really rattle me on an issue and make me see things a bit differently.

I have no delusion that I have a massive impact on my own. But I'm OK with supporting certain social issues (not just this) and being vocal about it.

 

[Uncle Rotter]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo/kitchener-rangers-ohl-onside-hockey-canada-sexual-violence-1.6525536

An OHL program to combat violence against women is proving to be a success among the Kitchener Rangers, though not all teams in the league have been as diligent in keeping players up to date with the program.

According to the Ontario Coalition of Rape Crisis Centres, an independent organization that has been tracking the OHL Onside training, some teams stopped after the onset of COVID-19.

Dave Branch has been the Supreme Leader of the OHL since 1979. Someone at Hockey Canada should be fired over this.