Canadian Government Freezing Hockey Canada Funding- (2018 Canada World Jr Team Alleged Sexual Assault)

[Mr Kot]

I think he's right in that they are celebrities at home.

Would be interesting to see if this is a common issue with other junior/teen sports. It would make determining if this is a hockey or general sports issue.

 

[Non Player Canadiens]

It's not the severity of the crime that makes it a civil or criminal case. The standard of proof is different, the punishment is different (jail time or money) and the outcomes can be different for the same crime. (See OJ Simpson case)

The civil approach is the obvious one in most rape cases because "beyond a reasonable doubt" is a very difficult standard to meet, even when the woman has significant injuries. (Defendant: "She likes it rough!") When you have 7 guys all implicated by their presence, and bonded by their team experience so no one will break rank, and one woman alone with a different story, the chances of a criminal conviction are zero.

The alternative, a criminal trial, involves subjecting the woman to an absolute shitstorm of slu+ shaming and blame; this is true EVEN when the woman was raped publicly, with witnesses, and was UNCONSCIOUS! She can still be blamed and men will still claim that she enjoyed it!
See Stanford swimmer Brock Turner case: Telling the Story of the Stanford Rape Case
Read the linked victim impact statement about the trauma, not of the rape itself which she was unconscious for, but everything that happened afterward, the loss of sense of safety and bodily integrity, the humiliation and degradation, and the realization that the criminal justice system treats assaulted women as trivial, and that the legal system itself allows the prosecution to assault the victim's character, gaslight her, invade her privacy, claim that the assault was desired, the psychological effects minimal, all while doing everything possible to protect the career of the assaulting athlete.

Anyone who knows anything will go civil. If you win, you can afford therapy and you can feel that someone was made to pay for what happened to you.

An example from last week of how insanely biased the criminal justice system is against raped women: a man sexually assaulted and photographed a sleeping woman, who woke up during the assault. There was no question as to his guilt as the woman escaped the room and others were present in the apartment. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/sexual-assault-trois-rivieres-1.6510610
The judge gave him a conditional discharge (NO jail time; NO criminal record) because according to the judge: the assault "did not last that long," the aggressor was "otherwise of good moral character," having previously sexually assaulted only one other woman, and because a criminal conviction would make it difficult for him to travel for his work.

Consideration of the consequences of this assault for the woman in the criminal system? Zero.

She could have gone the civil route, and she should have, and I hope she still does.

excellent post. the system is garbage

 

[francis246]

I think he's right in that they are celebrities at home.

Have you seen high school football players in USA?

 

[NyQuil]

Have you seen high school football players in USA?

I think he's referring to Canadian Junior team incidents taking place in Canada.

 

[francis246]

I think he's referring to Canadian Junior team incidents taking place in Canada.

Ohhhh yes that makes sense then

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

I think he's referring to Canadian Junior team incidents taking place in Canada.

You can’t hold glasses up to someone’s eyes online.

 

[wetcoast]

Rich people perpetuating odious patterns and protecting criminals and then throwing cash at charities or the church is nothing new.

It's not nitpicking to point out that their donations are entirely self-serving and don't fix the issues. It's something that needs more attention. Hats off to an organization that spoke up about this instead of just accepting corruption money!

You've said that since the start, despite all logic pointing to the contrary. And you maintain that despite the evidence mounting.

Hockey Canada's inhumane, crooked handling of the 2018 gang rape is 100% a coverup. From the second they were informed, Hockey Canada spent all its energy, 100% of it, protecting themselves and their players and doing their best to make the incident go away, with no interest whatsoever in finding out the truth, hearing out the victim or even making the slightest change. Even years later, during the federal committe hearing, you could see their answers were still attempts to lie and protect themselves. They just weren't smart enough to prepare adequately, thank God.

It's only in the last 10 days or so that they have fully realized that they can't get away with it, and that people like you, the "still waiting for the facts" crowd, can't drown out the voices that are asking for our institutions to do better.

I thought about it but replying to you isn't worth it as you have already made up your mind and don't care about the facts of the matter or small things like a legal process and making the world black and white in your own image.

The world is grey and we don't know and probably will never know, if people want to pass judgment great whatever works for them, it isn't doing a single thing for anyone else or to try and solve the incident from repeating itself but that's kind of the point or at least it should be.

I'll get back to hockey and will watch the news unfold about this as it happens as this thread isn't about making anyone's world better.

 

[wetcoast]

Individual sports don't have the element of putting the team above all else, do they? Is it a coincidence that we have not heard Golf Canada has hushed up multiple accusations of gang rape? Badmin . . . oh wait, I forgot doubles badminton, where bonds of brotherhood are forged and the doubles team is put before everything else.

And of those team sports that do, which ones have a $14M secret hush money slush fund to bury any scrutiny of alleged rapes?

And does the military - a public institution subject to government scrutiny and which also needs to have virtually it's entire leadership removed and culture overhauled - have a $14M secret hush money slush fund to bury any scrutiny of alleged rapes?

And does the RCMP - a public institution subject to government scrutiny and which also needs to have virtually it's entire leadership removed and culture overhauled - have a $14M secret hush money slush fund to bury any scrutiny of alleged rapes?

And do the fireman (sic) have a $14M secret hush money slush fund to bury any scrutiny of alleged rapes? Are "firewomen" calling for a complete overhaul of whatever fireman (sic) union there it? I dunno.

If those organizatons do have millions or tens of millions of secret hush money slush fund to bury any scrutiny of alleged rapes, then huzzay for them! They are in the rarified company of Hockey Canada, virtually the only segments in our society with all those elements.

Yay?

Maybe people should read this article here,

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/hockey-canada-abuse-claim-reserve-fund-1.6524124

to quote

An affidavit filed in an Ontario court case suggests Hockey Canada has maintained a fund to pay for uninsured liabilities, including sexual abuse claims.

I wonder if you have listened to the interview with Greg Gilhooly where he says that it's actually a good thing that an organization such as hockey Canada has a fund for uninsured liabilities like sexual assault given the thousands of volunteers that work under it's umbrella.

It actually allowed for victims to seek and get civil settlements but you are 100% opposed to the victim and her settlement now maybe?

So that's the problem with pontificating and not seeing the big picture and maybe seeing all of the facts as we know them.

I suggest you listen to the interview.

My guess is that the public institutions when they have to pay out sexually suit civil claims take it directly for the taxpayers, them not having a fund doesn't stop the same culture and indeed those organizations are more likely to try and "cover things up" much more than HC has done according to your allegations.

Firefighters culture has evolved from before there were female firefighters it happened that females were in some fire halls the 1960s and 70s weren't as enlightened or progressive as they are today even if obviously things need to get better everywhere.

 

[Off Sides]

Force organizations to be transparent. Let’s NORMALIZE DISCLOSURE for the love of God.

This part of your post I agree with, (the rest no so much)

Whether or not Hockey Canada's intention was to bury this or not, it was buried and would have remained so without the media coming out with this story.

I don't think names should be named, outside of a legal investigation and indictment, yet being able to not disclose a settlement having to do with sexual misconduct should not be a thing, especially considering who takes part in their programs, and their funding sources.

 

[Gainesvillain]

So many falsehoods in Jeune Poulet's previous posts it's almost comical.

London Police are not opening a "new investigation". They are simply saying they are open to receiving any new additional information. Just because an investigation doesn't reach your desired conclusion doesn't make it "bonus".

The law firm HC hired for their own investigation is indeed considered to be leaders in their field. The idea that good lawyers can only argue one side of a case is, frankly, bizarre. Sorry that someone at the firm hurt your feelings by advocating aggressively on behalf of their client, but that is what good lawyers do. Great lawyers can argue both sides of any given case or issue.

Your entire rationale in this thread seems to be a variation of: the Police investigation was bogus because it didn't reach the conclusion I prefer. The specialist law firm investigation was bogus because they previously defended clients who I assume were guilty.

 

[Coachcorner]

Are those players who will get caught of this being able to play during the next nhl season 2022-2023?

 

[GrumpyKoala]

Don't expect the name to go public, they settle so both the plaintiff and the defense will be requested to not divulge informations.

Win win for both parties and only team canada as an organization is dragged trough the mud.

 

[Cleatus]

Shockingly enough, even if you're built like a male model AND rich, not every girl wants to have sex with you

I know, but even without the riches, people as good looking as Lupul (man or woman) basically get to play life in easy mode, so he'd be an especially gigantic PoS if he was the kind to use his looks and charm to take complete advantage of someone weaker.

 

[Off Sides]

So many falsehoods in the previous post it's almost comical.

London Police are not opening a "new investigation". They are simply saying they are open to receiving any new additional information. Just because an investigation doesn't reach your desired conclusion doesn't make it "bonus".

The law firm HC hired for their own investigation is indeed considered to be leaders in their field. The idea that good lawyers can only argue one side of a case is, frankly, bizarre. Sorry that someone at the firm hurt your feelings by advocating aggressively on behalf of their client, but that is what good lawyers do. Great lawyers can argue both sides of any given case or issue.

Your entire rationale in this thread seems to be a variation of: the Police investigation was bogus because it didn't reach the conclusion I prefer. The specialist law firm investigation was bogus because they previously defended clients who I assume were guilty.

For the sake of accuracy,

“Through this review, they have determined there are further investigative opportunities available to us, and as such, the criminal investigation has been reopened to allow those opportunities to be explored,” he said in a statement Friday.

“As this is now an active criminal investigation, I am unable to speak further to the matter. Appropriate information will be shared once the investigation has concluded.”

London police reopen sex assault probe involving world junior hockey players

London police have reopened an investigation into a woman’s allegations that she was sexually assaulted by eight members of Canada’s 2018 world junior team after a …

lfpress.com

If one wants to read about the 3rd party investigation much can be read here beyond the part I quoted below.

Mr. Tom Renney:

Although the investigation could not come to a conclusion regarding the role that any player may have played in the incident, the investigator provided advice on areas for improvement, which we have been implementing and will continue to pursue in the line of our work to improve the culture of our sport. This work includes enhancing our code of conduct and improving our education programs. We are happy to discuss these efforts in more detail today.

Evidence - CHPC (44-1) - No. 38 - House of Commons of Canada

Evidence - CHPC (44-1) - No. 38 - House of Commons of Canada

www.ourcommons.ca

 

[francis246]

Are those players who will get caught of this being able to play during the next nhl season 2022-2023?

The issue is at present the NHL will likely never find out who the players were. The names weren’t disclosed and probably won’t be disclosed

 

[PostBradMalone]

The law firm HC hired for their own investigation is indeed considered to be leaders in their field.

That is, uh, one way to put it. Number one at railroading rape victims! Yay!

 

[CanHeDoIt99]

The issue is at present the NHL will likely never find out who the players were. The names weren’t disclosed and probably won’t be disclosed

Will not be hard to figure it out if they compel all players to cooperate in the investigation and apply various pressure points.

Question is whether they will care to do that or not.

 

[francis246]

Will not be hard to figure it out if they compel all players to cooperate in the investigation and apply various pressure points.

Question is whether they will care to do that or not.

There will be NDA’s probably, especially since it’s been settled already. I think only way names come out is if victim decides to pursue charges. But I’m not sure how that would work since a settlement was reached.

Realistically the only way the names truly come out is if someone in the know leaks them.

 

[BadgerBruce]

Will not be hard to figure it out if they compel all players to cooperate in the investigation and apply various pressure points.

Question is whether they will care to do that or not.

The NHL recently hired Jared Maples as the new Chief Security Officer. Maples’ work history includes US intelligence community activities so sensitive that they would never be included on a resume. I’d be very hesitant to state that Maples won’t get to the bottom of this issue.

 

[I am toxic]

Can anyone tell me how many multi million dollar rape hush funds Hockey Canada has?

I mean, the ones we know about so far.

 

[Chileiceman]

Rick Westhead has seen the texts between the victim and the player that brought her into the room, it would seem very odd if he didn't know who he is. He's also seen the videos from the room. Is he holding back on naming names because he's getting this info from the victim's camp on condition to not disclose names so as to not violate the NDA?

 

[WarriorofTime]

Would be interesting to see if this is a common issue with other junior/teen sports. It would make determining if this is a hockey or general sports issue.

I think a big issue is just the way Minor and Junior Hockey is set up that makes it very different from other sports.

Minor Hockey at the Bantam and Midget-Minor level is a total circus. (and of course this has a trickle down effect even to Pee Wee), with parents and kids hyper-focused on putting themselves in the best position for their "draft" year (age 15) to get a coveted spot in Major Junior/Junior A/USNDTP/USHL with players bouncing minor clubs to get on the right team that will give them the right amount of ice time to showcase, get invited to camps, etc. with extra powerskating lessons on the side... just an overall hyper-focus on hockey.

The closest parallel I'd say to those age 13-15 hockey years in what you'd see in something like the GTHL in another sport is to the elite AAU circuits (such as the Nike EYBL) for prep basketball. This is also a bit of a circus, as players are all hyper-focused on positioning themselves within their class (similar to Minor Hockey players) and trying to get a coveted college scholarship (or increasingly, other options like G League Ignite are becoming more popular). Even then, I would say there are two crucial difference still - these elite AAU circuits occur at ages 15-17, so you can already push the players ages up a couple years... and an AAU team is never going to be a kid's "primary" team as they will all still play high school basketball where they are still just normal high school students playing with their friends for the joy of representing their school (it can of course still be very serious, but it is not as professional-ized).

So now hockey is the kid's primary focus, making it to Juniors is a big thing in and of itself... and low and behold, they made it. They get drafted into let's say the OHL. There's a draft party or whatever, it's a local news story that you were drafted. So now you become a bit of a minor celebrity. And this is all when you're 15, barely pubescent. So if you aren't super well grounded, if your parents don't do a good job instilling that you're not better than everybody else because you're good at a sport (remember the sport that's consumed you for the last few years to reach this very moment), your ego can grow very big.

And of course, relevant in all of this is, by going to Juniors, you are likely packing up, moving to another city, living away from your family and with a billet family who do not have any parental obligations to you to make sure you grow into a respectable young man. And what I said before about hockey being your whole life? Child's play compared to now, as you are now being asked to play a 68 game schedule with additional practice and dryland time. You are going to take long trips to travel around your league for ordinary league games, and you're even in a differentiated form of schooling catered towards your hockey career. At which point, who knows if you even care about school or have any respect for your teachers or fellow classmates because you're a "hockey player" (who has already forfeited NCAA eligibility if you play Major Junior in Canada) and your goal is to make the NHL, not read some books written by dead authors. One shouldn't overlook the power of a good education in taking kids out of their bubble and exposing them to the happenings of people outside of themselves. I think the focus on obtaining an NCAA scholarship, rather than making it to Major Juniors, is one thing USA Hockey does right. A scholarship is a noble and admirable goal in and of itself in so many ways. It means you get to to college for free and come out with zero debt. It is still a feeder into the NHL so you are not closing any doors but there is a big tangible carrot in and of itself waiting for you while you still remain amateur. Major Junior on the other hand? It's a great feeder for professional hockey. That's it. It is otherwise not super valuable, but the hype and perception built around it creates a distorted viewpoint and worldview for teenage boys.

On the road so often, your "family" becomes your teammates, a group of 17-20 year olds who also grew up in this sort of environment and aren't fully mature and developed themselves. Maybe you get lucky and end up with a great group of veterans, but often times, you're gonna get a bunch of boys that subscribe to groupthink, immature attitudes towards things like drinking and sex and a culture built around hazing because "that's just how it's done" and justified with "we all had to do it".

And all of this happens at age 16. The other big North American sports have nothing like this, as you still remain a normal high school student progressing towards college eligibility (which is a must for most sports), in the vast majority of cases living at home surrounded by family. Hockey is unique in that players truly do enter a "hockey bubble" where it consumes their whole life and everything surrounding them. In basketball for instance, the goal is a college scholarship, so you get that, and then at age 18 or 19 (again older and more mature) you enter as an incoming freshman. Yes, there are some key similarities in that you are now also a local celebrity in your college bubble and many will still be susceptible to growing massive egos and senses of entitlement because they are good at a game. However, you're still also a student at the University surrounded by the remaining incoming freshman class, you live in the dorms, eat at the dining halls, etc. There also continues to be the expectation that you are taking coursework with the goal of progressing towards a degree for as long as you are in school that you can use if you do not play professionally. You also cannot be "traded" (pack your bags 17 year old, you're moving to a new city, to attend a new school and stay with a new billet family), while players may (and increasingly do) freely transfer, they are able to continue to remain at the school if they so choose (4 year guaranteed scholarships are becoming the norm, so long as a player remains academically eligible and is not removed from the team for behavioral reasons). Even then, it is not as professionalized as Junior Hockey.

It's no wonder that without better systems and programs in place that these hockey players get a warped perception of their place within reality and come out of it as 19 and 20 year old shitheads that think the world serves to cater to their needs, after all that is all it has done for the last 7 or so very formative years of their life. Add in the weird hazing culture and "fer da boyz" culture and I guess it's no wonder that gang bangs (consensual or not) because some sort of odd bizarro team-bonding ritual.

The whole system is pretty lousy... all to produce around 30-40 future NHL players per year.

 

[57special]

I want the names of the rapists. Enough pressure gets put on the parties involved, and a leak will occur.

 

[pcruz]

Will not be hard to figure it out if they compel all players to cooperate in the investigation and apply various pressure points.

Question is whether they will care to do that or not.

I'm convinced that most people with opinions on legal matters have no idea how the system works.
Also have no clue what burden of proof, reasonable doubt, charter rights, etc mean.

If they try to compel all the players into testifying, the players and their lawyers would only need to clam up and say nothing.
The Charter gives protection from self incriminating and any statement that could vaguely be used by authorities would be shushed by any competent lawyer.

Rick Westhead has seen the texts between the victim and the player that brought her into the room, it would seem very odd if he didn't know who he is. He's also seen the videos from the room. Is he holding back on naming names because he's getting this info from the victim's camp on condition to not disclose names so as to not violate the NDA?

He's not stupid enough to publish names and call those people rapists, while knowing that this likely never gets proven.
He'd open himself to major defamation suits and would likely lose.
Any player who loses a career without being proven to be guilty of this crime, would take Westhead and TSN to the cleaners.

I want the names of the rapists. Enough pressure gets put on the parties involved, and a leak will occur.

Then you should be upset with the woman who was allegedly the victim of this whole ordeal.

 

[Deuce22]

I want the names of the rapists. Enough pressure gets put on the parties involved, and a leak will occur.

Except the woman that this happened to settled and signed an NDA. I would say she's probably been through enough already.