Canadian Government Freezing Hockey Canada Funding- (2018 Canada World Jr Team Alleged Sexual Assault) PART 2

[Jacob]

Maybe one small tweak you could make immediately would be to just have more adults around. Specifically screened and approved by someone outside of the team and maybe even Hockey Canada. Coaches and billets can’t be everywhere all at once and there’s no reason to think they can handle a bad situation properly if they do encounter one.

 

[bert]

I do think the CHL system is the core of this problem and likely needs to be abolished if this problem is ever going to be fixed.

Taking young boys out of their home at 15/16, sending them to live in usually a small town away from their families and living 24/7 at the rink with barely any contact with the normal social situations teenagers go through likely is a serious issue with their socialisation. It reminds me of Goffman’s total institution. Hazing, abuse, and misogyny become normalised and the cycle repeats itself.

I think the entire junior system needs to be abolished in its current form.

They go to high school in the cities they play in. The USA has Jr teams too. Abolishing Jr which has done incredible things four millions of Canadians which includes school packages to post secondary is not the answer. We get it you're upset. These incidents are terrible but there are way less drastic measures to be taken here to fix this. I also hate to break it to you but this type of thing isn't only in hockey..... Group sex/ gang rape / hazing happens in many different walks of life. Destroying all business's and institutions it's happened in is a very slippery slope. Obviously measures have to be taken and the culture needs to be changed for it to stop however this blanket statements is way over the top. Ever heard of church? It's 100000 times worse throughout history yet it's still going strong. I truly find it interesting how so many people care so much more when it's a teenage hockey players but not an institution that has done worse to children way more often for far longer. Would be a great study on human psychology.

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

They go to high school in the cities they play in. The USA has Jr teams too. Abolishing Jr which has done incredible things four millions of Canadians which includes school packages to post secondary is not the answer. We get it you're upset. These incidents are terrible but there are way less drastic measures to be taken here to fix this. I also hate to break it to you but this type of thing isn't only in hockey..... Group sex/ gang rape / hazing happens in many different walks of life. Destroying all business's and institutions it's happened in is a very slippery slope. Obviously measures have to be taken and the culture needs to be changed for it to stop however this blanket statements is way over the top. Ever heard of church? It's 100000 times worse throughout history yet it's still going strong. I truly find it interesting how so many people care so much more when it's a teenage hockey players but not an institution that has done worse to children way more often for far longer. Would be a great study on human psychology.

This is a whole bunch of whataboutism. We're talking about hockey and the socio-behavioural impact of it on young men.

I understand that many do go to highschool, but a significant amount opt out to do homeschooling. The kids who go to highschool 1) miss extended periods of time of actual class 2) Are present for usually only hours a week in actual school. Most get packages to take home and work on, and then they're prepping for 80 games a season played usually throughout the school year where half of them are on the road. I went to highschool with 4 current NHL players and their experience and mine were night and day.

I don't think junior hockey needs to be abolished, I think the current structure needs to. Sending kids off away from their families for formative developmental years, placing them in homes where "hockey culture" is normalized, having them primarily be around older men who had the same socialization, and having an inherently misogynistic culture forced upon them has brought us to this point.

The system is broken and if it means tearing down millions of dollars of government funded private infrastructure, I don't care. f*** them. These CHL teams have known about the abuse going on in their locker rooms for decades and haven't done anything to address systemic issues. Graham James was supposed to be the moment where they said no more.

The Canadian government needs to pull all funding from the CHL until a better system is created.

 

[I am toxic]

People need to study this:

As mentioned earlier, whataboutism can occur in many other contexts besides debates surrounding politics, including conversations about racism, sexism, and rape culture: some great examples would involve the #BlackLivesMatter movement, as well as the #MeToo movement.

Whataboutism also appears in discussions surrounding sexism, rape culture and concepts like the #MeToo movement frequently. To better understand how and when this typically occurs, imagine having a conversation about the #MeToo movement and the statistics of women who have come out as rape victims, and someone counter-argues about the number of men who are unfortunate enough to be in the same position. While their argument is valid, by expressing it without focusing on the issue of female rape victims that were being discussed, they are engaging in whataboutism. The same thing goes for the reversed scenario: if a group is talking about how men are also victims of rape, and someone decides to focus on how women are going through the same struggle, then they, too, are engaging in whataboutism.

Hockey has a rape-enabling culture problem surrounding its cherished code of silence and blacklisting that also enables hazing, misogyny, racism and homophobia.

This problem needs to be addressed without intellectually dishonest debating tactics like whataboutisms.

Am I surprised we see near endless strawman, projection, ad hominem and - of course - whataboutism?

No. No I am not.

Now that another bad faith intellectually dishonest debating tactic has been addressed, to return to the actual relevant topic in good faith, here is what one Quebec mha has already been proactive enough to do:

A local Quebec hockey association says it won't be sending any more funds to Hockey Canada, and it's calling on other associations to also cut ties with the beleaguered organization.

The Granby Minor Hockey association announced the decision after parent and coach Francois Lemay called for the resolution to freeze funds and for others to follow suit.

Kudos to Francois Lemay and the Granby association. Thank goodness he didn't just throw up his hands and say "Oh well, the church, the boy scouts, the military and the RCMP all do it as much or more, I shouldn't do anything about it."

 

[bert]

This is a whole bunch of whataboutism. We're talking about hockey and the socio-behavioural impact of it on young men.

I understand that many do go to highschool, but a significant amount opt out to do homeschooling. The kids who go to highschool 1) miss extended periods of time of actual class 2) Are present for usually only hours a week in actual school. Most get packages to take home and work on, and then they're prepping for 80 games a season played usually throughout the school year where half of them are on the road. I went to highschool with 4 current NHL players and their experience and mine were night and day.

I don't think junior hockey needs to be abolished, I think the current structure needs to. Sending kids off away from their families for formative developmental years, placing them in homes where "hockey culture" is normalized, having them primarily be around older men who had the same socialization, and having an inherently misogynistic culture forced upon them has brought us to this point.

The system is broken and if it means tearing down millions of dollars of government funded private infrastructure, I don't care. f*** them. These CHL teams have known about the abuse going on in their locker rooms for decades and haven't done anything to address systemic issues. Graham James was supposed to be the moment where they said no more.

The Canadian government needs to pull all funding from the CHL until a better system is created.

I don't think you truly understand what happens in 99% of Jr hockey or how elite sports works. The CHL isn't the only Jr league..... In almost every level of elite sports people leave their homes as teens. Grouping absolutely every single person in the Jr hockey system together like this is clueless and shows you absolutely have no understanding of something you are petitioning to be cancelled. As a 39 year old who went through the system and never experienced any of it the way you are describing it as a norm sickens me. To think someone can have the audacity to speak to such extremes about something they're so unfamiliar about. I did witness teams and organizations changing this culture. I was there. It has been active in almost all situations, it's way different now than 20 years ago. The real problem here is the organization of Hockey Canada and its infuluence on its elite players. That's where this is coming from that's what needs to be torn down. These players are put on a platform that has made them feel and act superior.

Considering what's happened with the 'slush fund' yes there should be no government funding. There is no debate but there are millions of people you are looking to punish that have great intentions and have been positive examples within hundreds of thousands of people's lives. This is the danger with cancel culture.

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

I don't think you truly understand what happens in 99% of Jr hockey or how elite sports works. The CHL isn't the only Jr league..... In almost every level of elite sports people leave their homes as teens. Grouping absolutely every single person in the Jr hockey system together like this is clueless and shows you absolutely have no understanding of something you are petitioning to be cancelled. As a 39 year old who went through the system and never experienced any of it the way you are describing it as a norm sickens me. To think someone can have the audacity to speak to such extremes about something they're so unfamiliar about. I did witness teams and organizations changing this culture. I was there. It has been active in almost all situations, it's way different now than 20 years ago. The real problem here is the organization of Hockey Canada and its infuluence on dow its elite players. That's where this is coming from that's what needs to be torn down.

Considering what's happened with the 'slush fund' yes there should be no government funding. There is no debate but there are millions of people you are looking to punish that have great intentions and have been positive examples within hundreds of thousands of people's lives. This is the danger with cancel culture.

I have a lot of familiarity with the system, so you may want to curb your assumptions. I understand how junior leagues work outside of the CHL, however the CHL receives the most public money in all of Canada.

This isn’t cancel culture, it’s basic sociology and lived experience. I’m glad you had a positive experience. I didn’t, and neither did numerous people I knew as well as millions of other Canadians who have started speaking out.

Just because good things happen in a broken system doesn’t mean it isn’t broken. The CHL has done some remarkably good things for the lives of some young men. But it has also fostered a culture of misogyny, violence, and antisocial behaviour. Removing young men from their family environments and placing them into essentially an isolated bubble of toxic masculinity is a problem that cannot be easily fixed.

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

Defund Hockey Canada.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

They go to high school in the cities they play in. The USA has Jr teams too. Abolishing Jr which has done incredible things four millions of Canadians which includes school packages to post secondary is not the answer. We get it you're upset. These incidents are terrible but there are way less drastic measures to be taken here to fix this. I also hate to break it to you but this type of thing isn't only in hockey..... Group sex/ gang rape / hazing happens in many different walks of life. Destroying all business's and institutions it's happened in is a very slippery slope. Obviously measures have to be taken and the culture needs to be changed for it to stop however this blanket statements is way over the top. Ever heard of church? It's 100000 times worse throughout history yet it's still going strong. I truly find it interesting how so many people care so much more when it's a teenage hockey players but not an institution that has done worse to children way more often for far longer. Would be a great study on human psychology.

Once again: just because it happens elsewhere does not mean it is not a hockey problem.

We are on a hockey forum: why would we talk about the church or other institutions?

Shitty whataboutism is shitty.

 

[bert]

Once again: just because it happens elsewhere does not mean it is not a hockey problem.

We are on a hockey forum: why would we talk about the church or other institutions?

Shitty whataboutism is shitty.

What a shitty reply to a post that had far more depth than your catch line. It is a problem there's no denying it. There has to be change and there certainly will be and believe it or not there has been alot of progress. However these radical suggestions to destroy all Jr hockey and make it like 'american high school' (when they actually have jr too). Shows a disconnect to Jr hockey in Canada in general. Specifically from the posters saying it.

 

[Silky Johnson]

This is a whole bunch of whataboutism. We're talking about hockey and the socio-behavioural impact of it on young men.

I understand that many do go to highschool, but a significant amount opt out to do homeschooling. The kids who go to highschool 1) miss extended periods of time of actual class 2) Are present for usually only hours a week in actual school. Most get packages to take home and work on, and then they're prepping for 80 games a season played usually throughout the school year where half of them are on the road. I went to highschool with 4 current NHL players and their experience and mine were night and day.

I don't think junior hockey needs to be abolished, I think the current structure needs to. Sending kids off away from their families for formative developmental years, placing them in homes where "hockey culture" is normalized, having them primarily be around older men who had the same socialization, and having an inherently misogynistic culture forced upon them has brought us to this point.

The system is broken and if it means tearing down millions of dollars of government funded private infrastructure, I don't care. f*** them. These CHL teams have known about the abuse going on in their locker rooms for decades and haven't done anything to address systemic issues. Graham James was supposed to be the moment where they said no more.

The Canadian government needs to pull all funding from the CHL until a better system is created.

You are confusing whataboutism with double standards.

You do not need to destroy junior hockey to fix the culture. Junior hockey is a tremendously positive experience for most people.

Also, teenage boys living together away from home is not a big problem. Most of my family went to boarding school and it never lead to sexual assaults, just a way better education than public school.

Just bring accountability and supervision to the system and things will get better.

No need for hysterical pearl clutching or over the top "Virtue Signaling".

 

[Melrose Munch]

They go to high school in the cities they play in. The USA has Jr teams too. Abolishing Jr which has done incredible things four millions of Canadians which includes school packages to post secondary is not the answer. We get it you're upset. These incidents are terrible but there are way less drastic measures to be taken here to fix this. I also hate to break it to you but this type of thing isn't only in hockey..... Group sex/ gang rape / hazing happens in many different walks of life. Destroying all business's and institutions it's happened in is a very slippery slope. Obviously measures have to be taken and the culture needs to be changed for it to stop however this blanket statements is way over the top. Ever heard of church? It's 100000 times worse throughout history yet it's still going strong. I truly find it interesting how so many people care so much more when it's a teenage hockey players but not an institution that has done worse to children way more often for far longer. Would be a great study on human psychology.

You are confusing whataboutism with double standards.

You do not need to destroy junior hockey to fix the culture. Junior hockey is a tremendously positive experience for most people.

Also, teenage boys living together away from home is not a big problem. Most of my family went to boarding school and it never lead to sexual assaults, just a way better education than public school.

Just bring accountability and supervision to the system and things will get better.

No need for hysterical pearl clutching or over the top "Virtue Signaling".

Is it?

Costs? The move away from home? Awful coaches and awful parents, who treat people like crap? Abusive players? Hardly seems positive.

Junior Hockey should go, it's not like drafting from schools would lower quality.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

What a shitty reply to a post that had far more depth than your catch line. It is a problem there's no denying it. There has to be change and there certainly will be and believe it or not there has been alot of progress. However these radical suggestions to destroy all Jr hockey and make it like 'american high school' (when they actually have jr too). Shows a disconnect to Jr hockey in Canada in general. Specifically from the posters saying it.

I like how you completely dodge the callout on the whataboutism, which was the bulk of my post.

You went on about other sports and the church and then wondered why people cared so much about hockey. Genius, it’s a hockey forum discussing a hockey problem.

I will agree that I don’t think Junior Hockey has to go. Needs some serious fixing though.

 

[Silky Johnson]

Is it?

Costs? The move away from home? Awful coaches and awful parents, who treat people like crap? Abusive players? Hardly seems positive.

Junior Hockey should go, it's not like drafting from schools would lower quality.

Yeah. I went through it and it was great. Coaches were great and I still have best friends from that time. Never saw any sexual assault. Most former players I know feel the same way.

And yes, High Schools on Canada would destroy the quality. O

 

[Melrose Munch]

Yeah. I went through it and it was great. Coaches were great and I still have best friends from that time. Never saw any sexual assault. Most former players I know feel the same way.

And yes, High Schools on Canada would destroy the quality. O

I completely disagree with that, but if you're right the sport needs a complete overhaul. Football and Basketball seem to be doing fine with high schools (although the stupid AAU circuit is gaining popularity)

 

[WarriorofTime]

Ever heard of church? It's 100000 times worse throughout history yet it's still going strong. I truly find it interesting how so many people care so much more when it's a teenage hockey players but not an institution that has done worse to children way more often for far longer. Would be a great study on human psychology.

just lol at blatant “whataboutism” followed by some morally superior “would be a great study”. The only interesting study on human psychology is how people reflexively decide to defend corrupt institutions by pointing out other institutions may also be bad.

 

[bert]

just lol at blatant “whataboutism” followed by some morally superior “would be a great study”. The only interesting study on human psychology is how people reflexively decide to defend corrupt institutions by pointing out other institutions may also be bad.

If you actually read my post I didn't defend what's happened. I want hockey Canada to be torn down and built from the ground up. "whataboutism" is the new catch phrase around here I guess. I see a bunch of insecure posters trying to justify their moral values and fandom by condemning an entire sport that they know nothing about. I don't want the entire Jr hockey system destroyed. I want change. There has been major strides, this type of thing doesn't happen over night and no switching to a high school system 'like the usa' is not the answer. If you truly want Jr hockey abolished you'll be destroying the lives of millions that have had nothing but good intentions and have helped countless Canadians be great people. On and off the ice. The irony here is you using 'Moral superiority'.

 

[KnockHobbler]

If you actually read my post I didn't defend what's happened. I want hockey Canada to be torn down and built from the ground up. "whataboutism" is the new catch phrase around here I guess. I see a bunch of insecure posters trying to justify their moral values and fandom by condemning an entire sport that they know nothing about. I don't want the entire Jr hockey system destroyed. I want change. There has been major strides, this type of thing doesn't happen over night and no switching to a high school system 'like the usa' is not the answer. If you truly want Jr hockey abolished you'll be destroying the lives of millions that have had nothing but good intentions and have helped countless Canadians be great people. On and off the ice. The irony here is you using 'Moral superiority'.

Bro you’re one of the more insufferable posters on the sens board. I’ve been coming here for like ten years and your username always sticks out to me.
You spend all your time on here and think your subjective opinions are more valuable than others with how condescending you are, and you flaunt having connections to the team.

How’s that for whataboutism? Stop shitting up the main board with you ignorant takes, it’s bad enough you do that to Ottawa

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

If you actually read my post I didn't defend what's happened. I want hockey Canada to be torn down and built from the ground up. "whataboutism" is the new catch phrase around here I guess. I see a bunch of insecure posters trying to justify their moral values and fandom by condemning an entire sport that they know nothing about. I don't want the entire Jr hockey system destroyed. I want change. There has been major strides, this type of thing doesn't happen over night and no switching to a high school system 'like the usa' is not the answer. If you truly want Jr hockey abolished you'll be destroying the lives of millions that have had nothing but good intentions and have helped countless Canadians be great people. On and off the ice. The irony here is you using 'Moral superiority'.

Insecure posters, good one. For the longest time, you believe (and probably still do) that there’s nothing wrong with hockey culture because you played the game in some minor league level.

Spare us the moral superiority argument.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Bro you’re one of the more insufferable posters on the sens board. I’ve been coming here for like ten years and your username always sticks out to me.
You spend all your time on here and think your subjective opinions are more valuable than others with how condescending you are, and you flaunt having connections to the team.

How’s that for whataboutism? Stop shitting up the main board with you ignorant takes, it’s bad enough you do that to Ottawa

Amen to this.

 

[I am toxic]

Don't get sucked into personal attacks, that is likely what they want - their position is indefensible, the only thing they have left is to get the thread temporarily closed.

Back on topic, awareness is spreading south of the border, Larry Brooks has also opined that the leadership of Hockey Canada must go, in a piece in the New York Post.

The harm that the leadership of Hockey Canada has caused and hopes to continue to cause to the game and its stakeholders is tragic.

 

[Silky Johnson]

I completely disagree with that, but if you're right the sport needs a complete overhaul. Football and Basketball seem to be doing fine with high schools (although the stupid AAU circuit is gaining popularity)

We don't play football or basketball at a high level in Canada. Dispersing the talent from 60 Major Junior teams to thousands of highschools will make the competition trash. High level competitions breeds better players. University is after most peoples draft age.

Disagree if you want but you are wrong.

Also, what will end up happening is private schools will get the best talent either through scholarship or parents paying. The kids will end up leaving home none the less.

Better to work on fixing the cultural problems in the CHL and HC.

 

[Melrose Munch]

We don't play football or basketball at a high level in Canada. Dispersing the talent from 60 Major Junior teams to thousands of highschools will make the competition trash. High level competitions breeds better players. University is after most peoples draft age.

Disagree if you want but you are wrong.

Also, what will end up happening is private schools will get the best talent either through scholarship or parents paying. The kids will end up leaving home none the less.

Better to work on fixing the cultural problems in the CHL and HC.

And what if we can't? Hard to change something that's been going on for almost 40 years. High School would also give more kids the opportunity to play that would not otherwise.

 

[Silky Johnson]

Bro you’re one of the more insufferable posters on the sens board. I’ve been coming here for like ten years and your username always sticks out to me.
You spend all your time on here and think your subjective opinions are more valuable than others with how condescending you are, and you flaunt having connections to the team.

How’s that for whataboutism? Stop shitting up the main board with you ignorant takes, it’s bad enough you do that to Ottawa

The lowest form of argument is a purely Ad Hominem attack. It generally means that someone has no valid point and/or the intelligence to fake it

Bert is a good poster who know alot about hockey. He is also being reasonable here if you actually listened to what he is saying.

It's very clear that you never played sports at a high level and have no idea what you are talking about.

You can actually want positive change while not being performative in your righteous indignation, calling for pointless (over) reactions & personally attacking anyone who doesn't share your orthodoxy.

 

[Silky Johnson]

And what if we can't? Hard to change something that's been going on for almost 40 years. High School would also give more kids the opportunity to play that would not otherwise.

If we can't then we suck. There is nothing inherently about the CHL and sexual assaults.

By the way, Google sexual assaults by high school sports teams in the US. Talk to someone who went to a big football school in Texas. Do you really think the culture is better there?

Accountability, education and oversight is the only way forward.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Did I go to a different high school environment than other people here who think simply abolishing the CHL and having the kids play for their high school teams is the answer to avoiding the issues that plague the CHL?

My high school team (and other high school teams in the city) have similar stories of hazing, culture of misogyny, elitism, etc. that you hear coming out of junior hockey. The difference is it's on a much smaller scale (ie. no TSN reporter is going to be covering a 1000 student high school in a random city in Ontario) versus the country-wide focus that the CHL gets.