Canadian Government Freezing Hockey Canada Funding- (2018 Canada World Jr Team Alleged Sexual Assault) PART 2

[Melrose Munch]

Did I go to a different high school environment than other people here who think simply abolishing the CHL and having the kids play for their high school teams is the answer to avoiding the issues that plague the CHL?

My high school team (and other high school teams in the city) have similar stories of hazing, culture of misogyny, elitism, etc. that you hear coming out of junior hockey. The difference is it's on a much smaller scale (ie. no TSN reporter is going to be covering a 1000 student high school in a random city in Ontario) versus the country-wide focus that the CHL gets.

If we can't then we suck. There is nothing inherently about the CHL and sexual assaults.

By the way, Google sexual assaults by high school sports teams in the US. Talk to someone who went to a big football school in Texas. Do you really think the culture is better there?

Accountability, education and oversight is the only way forward.

I actually think the guardrails in the schools are better, but those issues exist there too.

We need solutions. What do we do to stop this, if we do nothing the sport itself will suffer damage.

 

[Uncle Rotter]

By the way, Google sexual assaults by high school sports teams in the US. Talk to someone who went to a big football school in Texas. Do you really think the culture is better there?

The Canadian government needs to pull all funding from the CHL until a better system is created.

Does the federal government give the CHL anything?

Junior Hockey should go, it's not like drafting from schools would lower quality.

Maybe lower the quality of the schools.

 

[Uncle Rotter]

Football and Basketball seem to be doing fine with high schools (although the stupid AAU circuit is gaining popularity)

They still have a problem with rape culture with the added bonus of academic eligibility scandals

 

[MXD]

The switch from junior model to academic model would solve problems, create others and, more specifically, not really solve the ones at issue here.

 

[caymanmew]

I actually think the guardrails in the schools are better, but those issues exist there too.

We need solutions. What do we do to stop this, if we do nothing the sport itself will suffer damage.

Best way to stop this is to stop treating the athletes like gods, they can't view themselves as special or different from everyone else.

That means we don't go in mass and watch them, we don't cheer their names or their teams, and we don't give them any more attention than any other random high school student.

Doesn't stop there though. They can't be special within the school. They can't be popular just because they are hockey players or just because they are good-looking. They can't get special treatment form teachers, coaches, or parents.

As a society, we have to come together and not only say, but believe that a guy like Connor McDavid is no more special or important than me or you. His name should be no more idolized than mine is or yours is. He should be no more popular than I am in society, or you are...

If you achieve that, then you no longer have a group of people believing they are better than everyone else and that they are special and should be treated differently because they are special.

 

[I am toxic]

Whether we 1) keep major junior et al and instead institutes other strategies to eliminate the toxic code of silence found in hockey culture that combined with blacklisting that inevitably results in hazing, misogyny, racism, homophobia and rape-enabling, or 2) whether we demolish major junior et al and replace it with something, the current leadership of Hockey Canada including the Board are the last people in the entire multiverse we would want involved in any way.

Given that the entire culture surrounding sports and its toxic win at all costs attitude and codes of silence, we should probably overhaul the major junior system at the same time as we root out the code of silence and blacklisting and hazing and misogyny and racism and homophobia and rape-enabling.

But the topic of overhauling junior certainly deserves its own thread somewhere.

On the topic of Hockey Canada's (lack of ethical) leadership, here is Jack Todd courtesy of the Montreal Gazette:

The only “action plan” Canadians want to hear at this point is the one that begins “I tender my resignation from Hockey Canada, effective immediately.”

Still haven't heard if the Globe and Mail editorial board has weighed in on resignations. If they haven't, then shame on them. Gutless cowardice in the face of an issue of national importance. If they have, correct me please and I will apologize profusely. Even though I don't know how to.

 

[Uncle Rotter]

But the topic of overhauling junior certainly deserves its own thread somewhere.

If you want people to see it, better not put it in the Canadian Junior Hockey sub-forum.

 

[aresknights]

This is a whole bunch of whataboutism. We're talking about hockey and the socio-behavioural impact of it on young men.


Sending kids off away from their families for formative developmental years, placing them in homes where "hockey culture" is normalized, having them primarily be around older men who had the same socialization, and having an inherently misogynistic culture forced upon them has brought us to this point.


The Canadian government needs to pull all funding from the CHL until a better system is created.

The statement about homes ( billet families) you generalized is completely wrong in the city I live in. Most aren't just misogynistic older men forcing culture on them.

 

[JadedRandom]

I completely disagree with that, but if you're right the sport needs a complete overhaul. Football and Basketball seem to be doing fine with high schools (although the stupid AAU circuit is gaining popularity)

I can attest to that. When I was younger and couldn't/didn't want to continue playing ice hockey and run my family tens of thousands of dollars to be a middling player, perhaps a bit better than that, in Midget Espoir (where hockey dreams come to die) after being among the last players cut by a Midget AAA team, I switched to playing high school Football.

I played with the Archers de Montréal my last two years before cégep, and I've got to say, the whole experience was nothing short of positive, with no downside whatsoever.

Whole team was funny as hell, and we got along pretty great, though there were still a couple guys I didn't mesh well with, but that's just life I guess. Trainings were TOUGH, but our coach varied the regimens and kept us entertained through clever changes of exercises and just being an overall funny but focused guy and good motivator.

Matches were a blast to play (WAYYYY easier than practice) and I still have friends from then that stayed with me through the decades. Win or lose, after games we'd get a small group together and simply "chill" while catching a movie, playing video games and stuff like that. There were no insane parties, no get-together with some girls and drinks, and If there was toxicity there and misogynistic behaviour, then I didn't see the slightest shadow of it.

But, we were nowhere near as rigorous in our training and playing as the higher leagues of the junior circuit are, and that contributed to the atmosphere of the team being good and cheery, even in defeat. Because we were doing it 100% for fun, with no "pro aspirations" to speak of, and nothing to hold us back from just quitting if we ever found it boring.

Players who go on to billet families, the CHL, who play for their future, and carry on the expectations of sometimes their whole families on their shoulders, all that, even if they're playing a sport that they obviously love, means that they inherently face a pretty great deal of pressure. A burden of expectations and hope is placed on their shoulders, mostly by themselves but also their environment.

That pressure helps them grow as hockey players, and in a lot of the cases as well, it helps them mature faster as human beings, what with being given greater relative freedom and opportunity to live on their own, with supervision of course. But it also distorts them in a way, instills in them a fiercely competitive nature, which is good to perform as a hockey player, but also leads to some amount of latent anxiety and a mentality that sometimes makes it hard for them to "back off".

As far as anxiety goes, stand still, stop or fail to constantly improve as a player, and you lose ground, you lose your spot on the team, and inevitably "get left behind". Do so, and your NHL aspirations are gone. What remains then? What should they do with their lives when Hockey has been far and large the biggest and most important goal of their lives for 10, 12, 15+ years of their young lives?

Of course, that can be quite hard to answer for CHL players given their young age and often lack of back-up plan, despairingly difficult even. And that uncertainty might permeate their lives for quite a while, whether they admit it to themselves or not.

So, when those rookie players graduate from Midget and get to their CHL teams, excited for the future but also riddled with insecurities, they are then brought in and included in the "brotherhood" of their locker room by veteran players, unconsciously seeking both support and affirmation from those they interact with. Put simply, their coaches' ways to instill guidance and leadership, the "culture" of their team and its constituents, the way their billet families treat them, all that has a very large influence on how those rookies live out their years in the CHL and beyond, shaping them in a certain way from stimuli as direct as simple example, or as pernicious as silent peer pressure, herd thinking, and whatnot (won't go into too much details, but go read Durkheim, Bourdieu, and Leibniz on the whole notion of "habitus" and its impacts on one's beliefs, actions swayed by influence and choice patterns through life, very interesting if nerdy reads but I digress).

In most cases, those interactions with coaches and veterans on their teams prove overwhelming positive, as some true friendships develop, and young people (and also those coaching them) bond with each other over their shared passion of hockey. If only that almost idyllic statement was the sole and complete truth...

The problem though, is that teenage boys and those in their very early-twenties, often have sky-high libido due to similarly sky-high hormone levels, close to zero restraint, and are very rarely if ever truly mature as individuals (AKA they're somewhat dumb, and extremely volatile when you put them in the same room as girls).

Another problem is that CHL teams are 100% comprised of those restraint-less boys aged from 15 to 21 or so. As such, they don't really have a "stopper" in their "party group" (let's face it, they don't party with the coaching staff or responsible adults in place, only with young people) to steer them away from their baser instincts. And given how "popular" those guys are in their respective communities let's just say that they have MANY "opportunities" to commit sexual crimes towards women.

Coaching staff and billet families will generally try to shepherd players to prevent aforementioned parties from happening too often, or on too wide a scale, and silently watch over them, generally in good faith. But sometimes they either don't move quickly enough to curtail sexual crimes (honest mistake), don't watch closely enough to get involved until it is too late (silent consent to rape culture in a way), or they outright defend their players while consulting lawyers and liability specialists and doing all they can to sweep things under the proverbial rug (what Hockey Canada did, a gross exercise in empowering rape culture).

When together, and "high" off the group energy and that team mentality, then young people (old ones too, but we're addressing Hockey Canada's dirty laundry here) can get up to nasty stuff at those parties that they like to hold. And since those players often don't have much experience being in actual romantic relationships with women by that age, then they don't know how to tell signs of consent from refusal, while also being unable to restrain themselves worth half a damn once their "engines are revved up".

Others can alternatively get lost in narcissistic, self-centered delusions of the sexual relationship they're having with the girl, as they only focus on their own pleasure in detriment to all else, mistaking her refusal, or misery, as enjoyment. Then, we get to the hardcore psychopaths (of which there are more than we care to think), who simply enjoy violating the girls as they "own" them, figuring out themselves that the girl "got exactly what she was looking for". Suffice to say, all of those behaviours are crimes, and the boys, in their own ways, either "manufacture consent" (I LOVE plugging Chomsky whenever I can, fight me) where it does not exist, or find their joy in the suffering of others though they would never publicly admit it.

And while the boys lose themselves to their misplaced lust, the girl has to bear the brunt of the sexual crime being enacted on her in spite of her will. There she is, utterly powerless, unable to defend herself while feelings of outrage, humiliation, despair, despondency, anger, shame, hatred, violation, more than I can briefly describe here, coalesce into one grim mix of emotions swirling, tearing her and her self-esteem apart as she tries not to break.

And then, after the beasts inevitably stop and the girl has run out of tears and is still nursing herself, Hockey Canada's lawyers come. They try to strong-arm NDAs out of her with threats of long and financially-draining litigations against a well-funded operation, of all the public scrutiny that will come, of making herself a fool on national television when her case inevitably fails and the players are pronounced "not guilty" (but not innocent), as countless other trials for rape did in the past umpteen years in Canada they no doubt bring to her attention. Those inhumane lawyers continue spewing what must seem like poison to the girl, sure of their victory and the girl's inevitable surrender, wallowing all the while in the inglorious inheritance of the rape-enabling culture of our country's past and the precedents it sets, which will surely help them in court.

Then they argue that she should take what is being given to her, not as a reparation, not as an apology, but as fee for her silence and not wasting theirs and everyone's time. They posit that their offer will only ever get lower and all of that psycho-lawyer bullshit as she stares miserably across the room at their cold and dead eyes. There's only indifference there, the bullying of a distraught young girl, and damage control for the corporate lawyers and insurers of the monolith that is Hockey Canada.

...

Well, that went on a tangent pretty quick, huh?

Anyways, back to the point now.

The locker room Hockey culture in the CHL and even lower leagues MUST change. There's racism there, misogyny, and a lot of psychos, as there is literally everywhere else; of that there is no doubt at all.

But abolishing the entire Hockey Canada structure would do little in the grand scheme of things given that peer pressure and anxiety, leading to increased group influence on behaviour and dependency, would not go away magically.

Following the whole "Burn the CHL to the ground!" idea, high school leagues would become much more competitive. Kids would be "sheltered", if there is such a thing, from older, more pervasive influences until after their 17th birthday, but seeing as they would all still be playing Hockey competitively, the microcosm of the locker room would remain pretty much the same bar the existence of older guys and it would do little to really change the culture except "shuffling the seats around" a bit if you will.

And players aged 18-20+ would still congregate together in cégep leagues or something similar, barely meeting attendance and doing whatever else they please, and not much but the format and how the talent is spread would change. Girls would continue to get raped, or sexually harassed, with little in the way of concrete change ongoing.

The best thing to do here would be to keep Hockey Canada while massively changing the inner power structure, fire everyone that was involved in the cover-up incidents, in addition to getting some more gentle-folk into management roles for both parity's sake but also to more strictly safeguard against rape-enabling culture.

Afterwards, get a real third-party (and not Hockey Canada cronies) investigation team to keep a constant pulse on sexual crimes in Hockey, as well as setting harsher and more stringent standards for off-ice behaviour for both coaches, staff and players. Try and crackdown on hazing, abuse of power by coaches, pedophilia, misogyny, and racism (to start with) all across the board and institute rules that preclude coaches from applying for/keeping jobs in Hockey Canada if they have dubious precedents in any of those categories.

Then you set up some additional guidelines for players in regards to their off-ice conduct, force coaches to go to seminars about how to better manage their team's off-ice antics and maintaining a good Hockey environment for players.

Finally, you also move towards more proactive prevention, by increasing spending for classes that teach inclusion, tolerance and respect for the rights of all.

...

But that would take too much money, political as well as societal involvement, so let's not do any of that and keep our old corrupt system in place while firing everyone involved, slightly shuffling the chairs of the deck around while going around pretending things have been magically fixed overnight and patting ourselves in the back for this...

That's about as much faith as I have in how this situation will be resolved.

Anyways, on this cheery note I bid you good day. Cheers, and forgive me for one of the longest posts in the history of HfBoards.

 

[Fixxer]

I disagree with that wholeheartedly. Many normal healthy adults watch porn and they don’t think about committing any sexual assaults.

Watch some and have fun then. That is not for me.

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

The statement about homes ( billet families) you generalized is completely wrong in the city I live in. Most aren't just misogynistic older men forcing culture on them.

You’re conflating two statements. The older misogynistic men are the operators of the team.

 

[aresknights]

You’re conflating two statements. The older misogynistic men are the operators of the team.

Well I've seen/heard of some terrible "operators" but also some very positive ones. Same as all walks of life.

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

Well I've seen/heard of some terrible "operators" but also some very positive ones. Same as all walks of life.

Lol way to dismiss the problem. I hate this thread.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I think that even in states like Texas, the big difference is they are high school students that play football (until they get to college) whereas in Junior Hockey, they are hockey players that go to high school. The HS Football players are still on the same plane as anybody else in the student body that participates in a school sport. Junior Hockey players have their whole lives revolve and built around hockey with the academics accommodating the hockey versus the other way around. High school football players in Texas can't be traded. It's way more "professional" in the Junior context.

 

[aresknights]

Lol way to dismiss the problem. I hate this thread.

Not dismissing anything. I think some of the events that have happened AND how some leadership have dealt with them are terrible. And sickening. And Disgusting.
Not sure where ya came up with me dismissing anything but carry on.

 

[Uncle Rotter]

I think that even in states like Texas, the big difference is they are high school students that play football

Like Dexter Manley?

 

[wetcoast]

Defund Hockey Canada.

Sure and maybe taxpayers can buck up then?

Or we can have many smaller hockey federations so the bad actors can just transfer among the confusion?

Reforming the structure of HC is not only easier but it is cheaper than burning it down and then building from scratch, which some people are asking for like you without actually making meaningful suggestions on how to make things better.

Replacing some hockey people at HC with just some other new hockey people isn't going to be the answer nor is just burning it down then bringing in non hockey people.

 

[wetcoast]

Best way to stop this is to stop treating the athletes like gods, they can't view themselves as special or different from everyone else.

That means we don't go in mass and watch them, we don't cheer their names or their teams, and we don't give them any more attention than any other random high school student.

Doesn't stop there though. They can't be special within the school. They can't be popular just because they are hockey players or just because they are good-looking. They can't get special treatment form teachers, coaches, or parents.

As a society, we have to come together and not only say, but believe that a guy like Connor McDavid is no more special or important than me or you. His name should be no more idolized than mine is or yours is. He should be no more popular than I am in society, or you are...

If you achieve that, then you no longer have a group of people believing they are better than everyone else and that they are special and should be treated differently because they are special.

Great idea but really doesn't work in the human world and when people try it like Pol Pot starting at year zero then even larger problems often happen.

I do agree that people shouldn't be treated as gods or as role models just because they are popular figures in sports or entertainment but many also use their platforms and status for good and overall I think those people vastly outnumber the bad apples.

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

You are confusing whataboutism with double standards.

You do not need to destroy junior hockey to fix the culture. Junior hockey is a tremendously positive experience for most people.

Also, teenage boys living together away from home is not a big problem. Most of my family went to boarding school and it never lead to sexual assaults, just a way better education than public school.

Just bring accountability and supervision to the system and things will get better.

No need for hysterical pearl clutching or over the top "Virtue Signaling".

I think you are misunderstanding what that term means. A whataboutism the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue.

What was being said is literally the definition. That poster countered a problem in hockey with a response about the church and other institutions that have harboured abuse. We are not talking about hockey in comparison to other institutions, we're talking about hockey.

People aren't saying destroy junior hockey, they're saying that the current system is not working and needs to be completely restructured. I ending the practice of drafting kids and having them move to different towns without their families is the first real step.

 

[racerjoe]

I think the first step is admitting there is a problem. Saying the problem exists else where to doesn't matter. That doesn't mean you shouldn't fix whats broken in front of you. Be better.

There is no doubt Hockey Canada needs to come down and replaced. Clearly from the top, with them just trying to pay to make a problem go away instead of dealing with these actions and sending a message is the start of the problem.

How they haven't stepped down boggles my mind. How NHL players haven't spoken out against Hockey Canada is just as sad and says enough about the culture.

What we are looking at is a Culture problem. Yes this stems from CHL as well. While I wouldn't say that needs to be disolved, it still needs major changes. These young men need to be taught to be men. We are not teaching them how to become adults, but how to be "stars". I don't have the answers, but I think it starts with accountability.

As a Canadian who treasures some of the memories Team Canadas have brought me from 2010 double gold, including that amazing note from Hayley Wickenheiser, and the Golden Goal. Its time to realize we need better from Hockey Canada and it needs to be taken down from the top to the bottom.

 

[wetcoast]

I think you are misunderstanding what that term means. A whataboutism the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue.

What was being said is literally the definition. That poster countered a problem in hockey with a response about the church and other institutions that have harboured abuse. We are not talking about hockey in comparison to other institutions, we're talking about hockey.

People aren't saying destroy junior hockey, they're saying that the current system is not working and needs to be completely restructured. I ending the practice of drafting kids and having them move to different towns without their families is the first real step.

No Silky Johnson had it right when he said that Bert wasn't be dismissive of the problem, just saying whataboutism over and over isn't adding to the discussion as it's being used willy nilly here.

The poster you accused of whataboutism actually did acknowledge that changes and progress was needed then added some societal content (what you call whataboutism) to illustrate the overall "structural problem" which isn't really what "whataboutism" really is.

I wonder if some of the people saying "whataboutism" have read this article or even really taken the time to consider what that term really means.

Whataboutism: How does this finger-pointing tactic work?

By Rania Tsoli, As we grow older, we get to peek at many sides of our society's spectrum. Ethnicity, culture, religion, gender, sexual orientation; the list goes on and on, with the notions and characteristics that make each and every one of us unique, being innumerable. Like the distinctive creatu

www.offlinepost.gr

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

No Silky Johnson had it right when he said that Bert wasn't be dismissive of the problem, just saying whataboutism over and over isn't adding to the discussion as it's being used willy nilly here.

The poster you accused of whataboutism actually did acknowledge that changes and progress was needed then added some societal content (what you call whataboutism) to illustrate the overall "structural problem" which isn't really what "whataboutism" really is.

I wonder if some of the people saying "whataboutism" have read this article or even really taken the time to consider what that term really means.

Whataboutism: How does this finger-pointing tactic work?

By Rania Tsoli, As we grow older, we get to peek at many sides of our society's spectrum. Ethnicity, culture, religion, gender, sexual orientation; the list goes on and on, with the notions and characteristics that make each and every one of us unique, being innumerable. Like the distinctive creatu

www.offlinepost.gr

Uh, no? My description of whataboutism is correct. He used the church as a strawman to put pressure off of the CHL by saying that many institutions have structural issues.

 

[wetcoast]

Uh, no? My description of whataboutism is correct. He used the church as a strawman to put pressure off of the CHL by saying that many institutions have structural issues.

This is what he said in response to you post about abolishing the CHL and that the CHL has to go.

They go to high school in the cities they play in. The USA has Jr teams too. Abolishing Jr which has done incredible things four millions of Canadians which includes school packages to post secondary is not the answer. We get it you're upset. These incidents are terrible but there are way less drastic measures to be taken here to fix this. I also hate to break it to you but this type of thing isn't only in hockey..... Group sex/ gang rape / hazing happens in many different walks of life. Destroying all business's and institutions it's happened in is a very slippery slope. Obviously measures have to be taken and the culture needs to be changed for it to stop however this blanket statements is way over the top. Ever heard of church? It's 100000 times worse throughout history yet it's still going strong. I truly find it interesting how so many people care so much more when it's a teenage hockey players but not an institution that has done worse to children way more often for far longer. Would be a great study on human psychology.

A "whataboutism" wouldn't actually acknowledge that things do nee to change when and where bad things happen they would literally say "what about the church don't look here at all".

Your point on local teams might actually have some merit I even brought it up about the Swedish model earlier but Bert made some good points about most of the system working and lots of good success samples, judging an entire organization from some bad apples is just plain ridiculous.

My suggestion is actually listen to what he posted instead of instantly reacting and labelling.

Then in a later thread you repsonded that no one is talking about abolishing junior hockey or the CHL here

I think you are misunderstanding what that term means. A whataboutism the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue.

What was being said is literally the definition. That poster countered a problem in hockey with a response about the church and other institutions that have harboured abuse. We are not talking about hockey in comparison to other institutions, we're talking about hockey.

People aren't saying destroy junior hockey, they're saying that the current system is not working and needs to be completely restructured. I ending the practice of drafting kids and having them move to different towns without their families is the first real step.

when upthread you said this to start it all off

I do think the CHL system is the core of this problem and likely needs to be abolished if this problem is ever going to be fixed.

Taking young boys out of their home at 15/16, sending them to live in usually a small town away from their families and living 24/7 at the rink with barely any contact with the normal social situations teenagers go through likely is a serious issue with their socialisation. It reminds me of Goffman’s total institution. Hazing, abuse, and misogyny become normalised and the cycle repeats itself.

I think the entire junior system needs to be abolished in its current form.

We need workable solutions not pie in the sky ones that instantly come to mind.

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

This is what he said in response to you post about abolishing the CHL and that the CHL has to go.


A "whataboutism" wouldn't actually acknowledge that things do nee to change when and where bad things happen they would literally say "what about the church don't look here at all".

Your point on local teams might actually have some merit I even brought it up about the Swedish model earlier but Bert made some good points about most of the system working and lots of good success samples, judging an entire organization from some bad apples is just plain ridiculous.

My suggestion is actually listen to what he posted instead of instantly reacting and labelling.

Then in a later thread you repsonded that no one is talking about abolishing junior hockey or the CHL here



when upthread you said this to start it all off


We need workable solutions not pie in the sky ones that instantly come to mind.

Ok, you’re just playing semantics. His example was a strawman and a clear whataboutism. I did read what he said and I responded to it.

No one is offering a “pie in the sky” solution. There is nothing wrong with recognising something is a problem and not having a solution in place to replace it with yet.

 

[4thline]

Fundamental change doesnt to the development system doesnt require and shouldnt involve switching over to the school integration system. We already have the infrastructure in place witha major midget aaa. Keep u18s out of junior, keep them in regular school with hockey as a non affiliated tangential peer group that doesnt dominate their lives.