Canadian Government Freezing Hockey Canada Funding- (2018 Canada World Jr Team Alleged Sexual Assault) PART 2

[I Hart Conor Garland]

At the end of the day, this investigation will be a positive for Hockey Canada and the CHL. Rules will be set and they will have to be obeyed. If not, put someone in place who will enforce the rules.

If the players are taught respect from day one, and the generation after that are taught respect, it will eventually raise all boats.

**

I am off for some exercise and to not think about this ugliness.

I will finish by saying I am disappointed with Hockey Canada and the CHL but I am NOT willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We just need to fix what is broken so let's do that.

In one of your posts you mentioned preventatively showing young players “2018” as a deterrent.

Have “names been named” in your hypothetical?

 

[TK 421]

If you read through these pages, you'll learn that peer pressure is so strong and unbreakable that people are perfectly willing to perform illegal activities and even self-mutilation in order to fit in.

Apparently, there is a whole generation whose parents never accosted their kids with:
"If your friends jumped off a bridge, would you jump too?"

The concepts of self-preservation, self-respect, self-confidence, legality, morality, decency, self-judgement don't exist for 14-20 year olds apparently, either.

I honestly don't know what world I lived in as a teenager because I was never put in a place where I had to forego all sense of respect and decency for myself or others, or where I felt like I was forced into performing criminal activities for fear of being ridiculed. All while being too afraid of going to any authorities.

I think most of us here are just regular schmucks who were never elevated above others and thus never would have felt emboldened to do something like these guys allegedly did. Because of that I think the majority of us have a difficult time grasping the mindset of people capable of doing this. You'd truly have to feel you were above others to be in a place mentally where you can view this girl as no longer a person, but a prop existing only for your sexual gratification to be passed from one guy to the next.

You see it everywhere, rich people and politicians feel entitled to break all kinds of laws that the rest of us plebs are expected to follow to the letter and the common denominator is that they've been elevated in some form or fashion above the rest of us. Power is a heck of a drug.

 

[Angry Little Elf]

I think most of us here are just regular schmucks who were never elevated above others and thus never would have felt emboldened to do something like these guys allegedly did. Because of that I think the majority of us have a difficult time grasping the mindset of people capable of doing this. You'd truly have to feel you were above others to be in a place mentally where you can view this girl as no longer a person, but a prop existing only for your sexual gratification to be passed from one guy to the next.

You see it everywhere, rich people and politicians feel entitled to break all kinds of laws that the rest of us plebs are expected to follow to the letter and the common denominator is that they've been elevated in some form or fashion above the rest of us. Power is a heck of a drug.

What a lot of people miss about sexual assault is that it’s not about sex, it’s about power. We put these boys on a pedestal and they believe they can act with impunity. In a small town, if a girl reports that she was raped by the captain of the local hockey team, people will say “but he volunteers at the hospital and wears a suit to the games, he’s such a nice boy!” or “you probably wanted it and now you regret it”

 

[AllDay28]

It's not. It's a fine organization that made some BIG mistakes.

We ALL have skeletons and HC is no different.

Damn tell us about your skeletons … …. ….

 

[Oscar The Grouch]

Carcillo files proposed class-action lawsuit against CHL over hazing - TSN.ca

Suit alleges the Canadian Hockey League and its three major junior leagues have been complicit for decades in rampant hazing, bullying, and abuse of underage players by coaches, team staff and senior players, Rick Westhead writes.

www.tsn.ca

“During showers, rookies were required to sit in the middle of the shower room naked while the older players urinated, spat saliva and tobacco chew on them,” the 46-page statement of claim says. “At least once, the head coach walked into the shower room while this was occurring, laughed and walked out.”

“Rookies were repetitively hit on their bare buttocks with a sawed-off goalie stick, developing large welts and open sores, the lawsuit says.

“The injuries were so bad that they couldn’t sit down, even while attending local high school classes. They advised team staff of this abuse, which did not stop.”

why it so gay tho.

Ps. I'm gay.

 

[Angry Little Elf]

why it so gay tho.

Ps. I'm gay.

Gay men are seen feminine and lesser men. So making them do gay stuff feminizies them. Hockey is incredibly homophobic

 

[ORRFForever]

In one of your posts you mentioned preventatively showing young players “2018” as a deterrent.

Have “names been named” in your hypothetical?

No...

None of my solutions are "great" because there are NO great solutions. If there were, someone would have done it by now.

**

Here's an idea...

Have an independent body that investigates and, if a player is guilty of any kind of assault in the CHL, HC, USHL, USDP, or any other youth league, they cannot be drafted in the first 3 (4?) rounds of their NHL draft - work with the NHL and NHLPA to make it so.

That might help keep players on their best behaviour - the lower the draft round, the lower the payday.

 

[Boner Champ]

Man, I don't post a lot on here but there are some really .. interesting .. takes here. A couple of things.

1) there is no right to participate in HC protected in law. period. Though it seems that is well understood by most here.

2) yeah, there might be some "legal" risk in speaking to investigators when one is completely innocent, but in my life I don't think I've ever heard of someone getting nailed for perjury or contempt or anything because they misspoke in an official proceeding if that statement was an honest recollection. Make no mistake - the players not speaking are holding out because (a) they are implicated - either they participated or have obstructed or otherwise hampered investigation efforts, or (b) they don't want to rat out their friends. It has nothing to do with "mistaken" self-incrimination.

3) speaking of peer pressure, IMHO a lot of the takes on what athletes (and especially kids) should be expected to do are pretty naive. Sure - you and i can talk up a good game about hazing and how we can stand up for the bullied but let's be realistic. Hazing happens ALL THE TIME and I know first and second hand that it OFTEN involves physical abuse, degradation and humiliation. But instituting a zero tolerance policy won't do anything. For one, the bullied kids won't have any more incentive to report it - they'll still be labelled a rat and targeted elsewhere. Most of us still have to live with our teammates and see them in school and around town. Second, its pretty well accepted in criminal studies that the punishment has virtually no effect on curbing unwanted behavior. The only thing that does is the perception of getting caught.

What to do to solve hazing? Man - that's a tough and complicated issue. But maybe the most helpful thing would be for kids' hero athletes to speak more publicly about (a) how bullying wrecked them when they were young and/or (b) how much they regret being the perpetrator. Whatever the case, we have to acknoweldge that there are a lot of jerk-off parents and jerk-off coaches who enable and even encourage kids to become complete jerk-offs themselves.

4) And finally - Burn. it. to. the. ground. I can't believe some of the takes I'm hearing. They've done a lot of good! Really? So what? Their job is to do good. How low is the bar when serious incidents of abuse, including up to gang rape, can be considered the price of doing business? And its not like we don't have a vast wealth of expertise in this country in not just organized hockey but supporting amateur athletes, community building, etc. There is zero trust right now and that's the most important ingredient in a public-facing organization. Without that you got nothing. (/end rant)

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

No...

None of my solutions are "great" because there are NO great solutions. If there were, someone would have done it by now.

**

Here's an idea...

Have an independent body that investigates and, if a player is guilty of any kind of assault in the CHL, HC, USHL, USDP, or any other youth league, they cannot be drafted in the first 3 (4?) rounds of their NHL draft - work with the NHL and NHLPA to make it so.

That might help keep players on their best behaviour - the lower the draft round, the lower the payday.

“Getting 2018’d” doesn’t mean anything without ruined careers and reputations to point to.

 

[ORRFForever]

“Getting 2018’d” doesn’t mean anything without ruined careers and reputations to point to.

That's fair and it's a hole in my "solution".

 

[Pink Mist]

No...

None of my solutions are "great" because there are NO great solutions. If there were, someone would have done it by now.

**

Here's an idea...

Have an independent body that investigates and, if a player is guilty of any kind of assault in the CHL, HC, USHL, USDP, or any other youth league, they cannot be drafted in the first 3 (4?) rounds of their NHL draft - work with the NHL and NHLPA to make it so.

That might help keep players on their best behaviour - the lower the draft round, the lower the payday.

Uhhh if a player is guilty of assault they should not be drafted in ANY round

 

[njdevils1982]

end all funding permanently

hockey canada is a stain

....shit, seems like a lot of crap has happened here the last couple years...


and we got a pope visiting here now doing damage control for similar reasons.


....just f***ing pathetic all around.


and very sad indeed

 

[Nut Upstrom]

I love it. When Russian kids talked about what an abusive hell the CHL was nobody gave a f***. But when it comes to a Canadian girl everything has changed of course. Everything you need to know about NA...

I doubt these Russian kids were telling Canadians who grew up around hockey anything they didn't already know. They've just always been willing to accept it, tolerate it, ignore it, deny it, excuse it, defend it or look the other way. A mistreated foreigner wasn't about to open anyone's eyes. Thankfully, people's eyes are open now and a wave of misdeeds and cultural toxicity is being dragged into the spotlight. Its sad that many still refuse to accept that there is a legitimate problem. What's most sad is that it took this young lady's (and likely many other's) night of hell to embolden people to take a stand against what is rotten in Hockey Canada and hockey culture.

 

[IslesNorway]

Everyone involved in the game from coaches, players, owners etc. who turn a blind eye to hazing or sexual misconduct should be made responsible. Period. It's a curse upon the game and the NHL needs to step up too.

It ought to be rather simple:

- a coach who lets his players haze one another should be out of a job. Hazing is not character building or team building. It's soul destroying.
-players who haze should be off the team immediately and shut off from the NHL draft.
-Players who engage in sexual misconduct should always be investigated by the police and shut off from the team until the investigation is complete. Of course if they're guilty they should take their punishment and be shut off from ever playing in the NHL.
-Owners should implement courses their team has to follow, to actually teach these kids respect for others and how to behave like a decent human being. If they fail to live up to that - they should be off the team.
- The media should stop to treat these kids as demigods. All it does is build their egos.

It's time to stop making excuses, really.

 

[Korpse]

It's great to see the discussion expanded to include hazing, maybe someday there will also be a serious discussion about head trauma, pain killers, stimulants, etc.

 

[Voight]

Everyone involved in the game from coaches, players, owners etc. who turn a blind eye to hazing or sexual misconduct should be made responsible. Period. It's a curse upon the game and the NHL needs to step up too.

It ought to be rather simple:

- a coach who lets his players haze one another should be out of a job. Hazing is not character building or team building. It's soul destroying.
-players who haze should be off the team immediately and shut off from the NHL draft.
-Players who engage in sexual misconduct should always be investigated by the police and shut off from the team until the investigation is complete. Of course if they're guilty they should take their punishment and be shut off from ever playing in the NHL.
-Owners should implement courses their team has to follow, to actually teach these kids respect for others and how to behave like a decent human being. If they fail to live up to that - they should be off the team.
- The media should stop to treat these kids as demigods. All it does is build their egos.

It's time to stop making excuses, really.

Hazing is a part of sports, specifically higher levels. Sometimes kids go too far with it, but its part of the initiation process and gets rookies/new guys accepted into the group.

 

[Sra1974]

Hazing is a part of sports, specifically higher levels. Sometimes kids go too far with it, but its part of the initiation process and gets rookies/new guys accepted into the group.

This is the line of thinking that keeps enabling it to happen. It doesn’t make people part of a team, it isolates them and breaks them down at minimum, at worst it is criminal and can have long term implications.

I have led high performance teams in the corporate world for a long time, there’s no way we would consider hazing as what it takes to make people part of a team. Mentorship, team experiences, acclimatization to rules/values/norms, getting to know people is what gets people accepted into the team, not tying stuff to your private parts.

 

[apparentlyclueless]

Hazing is a part of sports, specifically higher levels. Sometimes kids go too far with it, but its part of the initiation process and gets rookies/new guys accepted into the group.

This is such a bullshit reasoning. Maybe there's a reason hazing basically occurs mostly among sports and rather juvenile institutions (high school / college). Can you imagine this sort of stuff happening in an office space or another work enviroment where team building is just as valuable as in sports?

Yeah, me neither. Even the most harmless ways of hazing (putting shaving cream on peoples shoes etc, so basically harmless pranks) would be viewed as weird, at a bare minimum.

Now that I think about it I've heard there are pranks like this in the restaurant business (in which there still are pretty toxic work enviroments), eg. a new employee in a kitchen will be sent to another restaurant to borrow something ridiculous like pizza repair kit etc. But even that can be pretty humiliating to somebody (people happen to Be different), even if everybody else finds it funny. So I wouldn't exactly view it as a good way to welcome somebody into a team. Much better, non-humiliating ways exist.

Edit/ It also seems that hazing as an effective team building activity is a complete myth, which any decent human being could deduce. But there's also some research into the issue.

The relationship between hazing and team cohesion. - Document - Gale Academic OneFile

<em>Gale</em> Academic OneFile includes The relationship between hazing and team cohesion. by Judy L. van Raalte, Allen E. Cornelius,. Click to explore.

go.gale.com

Results indicated that the more appropriate team building behaviors that athletes were involved in, the more socially cohesive they perceived their team to be. The more hazing activities they reported doing or seeing, the less cohesive they perceived their team to be in sport-related tasks. The results of this study suggest that the argument that hazing builds team cohesion is flawed. Hazing is associated with less, not more, team cohesion.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

1) there is no right to participate in HC protected in law. period. Though it seems that is well understood by most here.

Again, you guys are getting it backwards. Yes, no one has a right to participate in a HC sanctioned event or job. I and others have said they have a right not to be discriminated against over opportunities they are qualified for by a federally funded organization, that has a monopoly on sanctioned hockey operations in Canada, over not wanting to be forced into being questioned by lawyers in a public commission. If you were denied a government job because you wouldn't hand over your cell phone and social media passwords, would you be OK with that?

It seems pretty simple to me. And even if I'm wrong and it's not technically a "right" from a legal point of view, it still seems wrong to me which is all I said in the first place.

 

[4thline]

Again, you guys are getting it backwards. Yes, no one has a right to participate in a HC sanctioned event or job. I and others have said they have a right not to be discriminated against over opportunities they are qualified for by a federally funded organization, that has a monopoly on sanctioned hockey operations in Canada, over not wanting to be forced into being questioned by lawyers in a public commission. If you were denied a government job because you wouldn't hand over your cell phone and social media passwords, would you be OK with that?

Depends on the job, high security clearance yeah, most cases no. But that's a terrible comparison.

What they'd be denied is either
- a high publicity job denied because due to their association with a major scandal they are not publicly viable
-a high sensitivity job involving including positions of power over vulnerable populations denied due to reasonable suspicion that they cannot be trusted with said power
-a job with an organization that they were previously members of, that does not trust them to follow either/both of the organizational code of conduct or transparency guidelines due to their unwillingness to co-operate in internal investigations into wrongdoing

Any 1 would be reasonable, all potentially apply.

 

[jellybeans]

Boycott anything that involves hockey canada until a new management and changes happens don't watch the juniors this summer i won't and never missed it in the last 20 years or so,Boycott any business that supports hockey canada and let them know, money talks it will work.

 

[Perrah]

Again, you guys are getting it backwards. Yes, no one has a right to participate in a HC sanctioned event or job. I and others have said they have a right not to be discriminated against over opportunities they are qualified for by a federally funded organization, that has a monopoly on sanctioned hockey operations in Canada, over not wanting to be forced into being questioned by lawyers in a public commission. If you were denied a government job because you wouldn't hand over your cell phone and social media passwords, would you be OK with that?

It seems pretty simple to me. And even if I'm wrong and it's not technically a "right" from a legal point of view, it still seems wrong to me which is all I said in the first place.

Well since its federal why not have a public hearing that isnt done by lawyers hired to protect HC. Then the 9 players have no choice and they don’t have to worry about not being able to coach or ref later in life. Everybody gets what they want right?

 

[robertmac43]

Uhhh if a player is guilty of assault they should not be drafted in ANY round

They should also not have the privilege of playing in the top Junior league or any kind of pro league until clear rehabilitation efforts have been completed.

 

[wetcoast]

Boycott anything that involves hockey canada until a new management and changes happens don't watch the juniors this summer i won't and never missed it in the last 20 years or so,Boycott any business that supports hockey canada and let them know, money talks it will work.

I think the focus on a new group and cleaning house is misguided as the new CEO wants to be held accountable and I think most of us would and should be more concerned about what happens going forward instead of being so focused on the past and the mistakes and 20/20 hindsight.

I'll be watching the WJHC as I'm a fan of hockey and believe in moving forward but others can do what they want.

 

[PostBradMalone]

It seems pretty simple to me. And even if I'm wrong and it's not technically a "right" from a legal point of view, it still seems wrong to me which is all I said in the first place.

There is absolutely nothing illegal about telling someone they cannot play for TC or in an HC-sanctioned event lol.