Canadian Government Freezing Hockey Canada Funding- (2018 Canada World Jr Team Alleged Sexual Assault) PART 2

[PostBradMalone]

a) Do you live in Canada? Curious. That's where I'm talking about. Employment law is so in favour of employees/individuals is beyond belief. May be different where you are.

Yes, and there is absolutely nothing labour law in Canada can do if HC was to tell certain players it cannot play for its teams. They could give any reason they wanted, and so long as it was not a prohibited grounds under the Charter or CHRA, it doesn’t matter.

b) Well, I can't put any money down yet because they may be guilty. And you know, I kinda said "assuming they're not guilty". Lemme know when you know and we can talk. Are you good for a bet by the way?

I would happily bet money on this.

People are weirdly emotional about this subject for some reason.

Because you keep talking out your ass about it.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Yes, and there is absolutely nothing labour law in Canada can do if HC was to tell certain players it cannot play for its teams. They could give any reason they wanted, and so long as it was not a prohibited grounds under the Charter or CHRA, it doesn’t matter.



I would happily bet money on this.



Because you keep talking out your ass about it.

I'm just giving honest opinions in a polite manner. You're being offensive. Think about that for a minute.

 

[caymanmew]

I won't watch until the boys club is cleaned right out, nothing will change if these dinosaurs don't get removed it sucks for all that aren't involve but nothing will change without major changes believe me world juniors is my fav hockey but something has to change by doing nothing you support the problem and the only thing i can do is not giving them a view not buying anything related to hockey canada.

Even if you replaced all of HC staff, basically all qualified people to do the jobs, at least the ones hockey related, have gone through the CHL as either a player, coach, or manager. If you went through the CHL then you participated or covered up horrible shit, including sexual assault. This stuff is likely very widespread within the CHL.

 

[jellybeans]

Even if you replaced all of HC staff, basically all qualified people to do the jobs, at least the ones hockey related, have gone through the CHL as either a player, coach, or manager. If you went through the CHL then you participated or covered up horrible shit, including sexual assault. This stuff is likely very widespread within the CHL.

Very possible but start at the top of hockey canada and go from there.

I really hope the police gets involve and if rape happened charges should be laid and if cover up can be proven charge those people also.

 

[Uncle Rotter]

Really should HC be taking on liability of players personal time? Seems questionable. Players won't participate unless they have coverage from the organization?

It happened at a Hockey Canada event.

Boycott anything that involves hockey canada until a new management and changes happens don't watch the juniors this summer i won't and never missed it in the last 20 years or so,Boycott any business that supports hockey canada and let them know, money talks it will work.

So I guess you won't be watching, but would you have otherwise?

2022 IIHF Women's World Championship - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Uncle Rotter]

Should FIFA suspend Canada?

 

[Blender]

a) Do you live in Canada? Curious. That's where I'm talking about. Employment law is so in favour of employees/individuals is beyond belief. May be different where you are.

While employment law offers a lot of protections in Canada, it is extremely easy to terminate people. You just need to provide them with notice or pay in lieu of notice, but otherwise can terminate anyone at any time for any (or no) reason, except for human rights issues.

This of course only applies to their employees, which players are not.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Should FIFA suspend Canada?

Sure if we’re being consistent. But it won’t happen because it’s FIFA

 

[jbeck5]

I'm happy about what is happening to Hockey Canada. I think this country's thought they were so above everything. Better goalies emerge in other countries. Canada is slowly becoming more bland in temrs of talent, where Eutopean countries are moving forward. A real needed reality check for Team Canada. Sorry about the girl, very sorry, but if there was less p0rn and such online, teens wouldn't have such ideas. In fact, p0rn is not censored fro mthe web because it profits some people. A sad society, but Hockey Canada did need a reality check and got it the hard way. Great!

Lmao someone sounds religious. You realize Europe is huge into porn right? So...

 

[I am toxic]

I won't watch until the boys club is cleaned right out, nothing will change if these dinosaurs don't get removed it sucks for all that aren't involve but nothing will change without major changes believe me world juniors is my fav hockey but something has to change by doing nothing you support the problem and the only thing i can do is not giving them a view not buying anything related to hockey canada.

You are exactly correct.

Damien Cox just pointed out the same thing:

This tournament will become part of Hockey Canada’s damage control effort, part of its effort to polish its brand and dirty image. So if you’re a hockey fan disgusted with what you’ve read and heard about Hockey Canada and its ludicrous name National Equity Fund, maybe this is the year you shouldn’t watch.

An Edmonton fan boycott, you can imagine, would be horrible for Smith and the other Hockey Canada executives who need the 2022 world juniors to fill the organization’s coffers and put a golden shine back on it. If there was a boycott, then maybe we could see someone at Hockey Canada lose their job. Maybe then we could see some accountability.

These people had decades to address the hockey culture and it's toxic code of silence and blacklisting and hazing and they did nothing but their level best to maintain it. And they expect people to be stupid enough to think they are the ones who could come up with a plan, that they could do it in a few weeks, and that they of all people should be the ones to implement it. A plan that lacks transparency, and protects perpetrators.

Take a good look at these people, and consider what they have done to maintain the code of silence that has existed for decades and the immense harm it has caused and continues to cause.

Now that this is out in the open, anyone who supports this leadership at Hockey Canada is supporting the toxic hockey culture and it's code of silence and blacklisting and hazing.

 

[Myopinionsarewrong]

I disagree with that wholeheartedly. Many normal healthy adults watch porn and they don’t think about committing any sexual assaults.

I'm surprised this needs to be said, but sexual assault predates internet porn.

Lmao someone sounds religious. You realize Europe is huge into porn right? So...

Yes sexual assault predates any kind of porn. At the same time when porn is something almost everyone is watching, it is naive to think it doesnt affect the way we view the world and that it doesnt normalize stuff.

While porn isn’t the reason there is sexual assault, it might be fuel leading up to it in many cases. This Ted talk provides some science to back this up: .

Crazy stats about how many porn films contain violence against women for example, which we then take for granted.

 

[Uncle Rotter]

These people had decades to address the hockey culture and it's toxic code of silence and blacklisting and hazing and they did nothing but their level best to maintain it.

The CHL, OHL, WHL, and the QMJHL, right?

 

[daver]

Question: Why aren't allegations made in a civil lawsuit that, if true, would result in criminal charges, automatically trigger a criminal investigation? I.e. the civil lawsuit cannot proceed until an investigation has been carried out?

Seems to me that an allegation of sexual assault carries a lot of weight as we have seen by Hockey Canada and the CHL's response and the subsequent actions taken by other institutions based primarily on public reaction and perception. Seems to me that it isn't necessarily indicative that the allegations are true despite a settlement being reached.

This isn't to say that HC and the CHL were not motivated to sweep the allegations this under the rug rather than face public scrutiny but it does open the door to "justice", that a criminal action did or did not happen, being compromised.

 

[Voight]

Even if you replaced all of HC staff, basically all qualified people to do the jobs, at least the ones hockey related, have gone through the CHL as either a player, coach, or manager. If you went through the CHL then you participated or covered up horrible shit, including sexual assault. This stuff is likely very widespread within the CHL.

This a massive reach. Way too big of an assumption.

 

[Sra1974]

Question: Why aren't allegations made in a civil lawsuit that, if true, would result in criminal charges, automatically trigger a criminal investigation? I.e. the civil lawsuit cannot proceed until an investigation has been carried out?

Seems to me that an allegation of sexual assault carries a lot of weight as we have seen by Hockey Canada and the CHL's response and the subsequent actions taken by other institutions based primarily on public reaction and perception. Seems to me that it isn't necessarily indicative that the allegations are true despite a settlement being reached.

This isn't to say that HC and the CHL were not motivated to sweep the allegations this under the rug rather than face public scrutiny but it does open the door to "justice", that a criminal action did or did not happen, being compromised.

I would think one of the reasons is the victim themselves. A criminal case means a very public trial, the victim will have to go on the stand and relate very personal details without any anonymity. Unfortunately in sexual assault cases the victim ends up as much on trial as the accused(read some of the posts in this site for evidence of that), and it’s a brutal process for them and if not willing to go through that basically the criminal case is done. The civil route can at least have some anonymity for the victim, but yes does not bring personal accountability into play. In this case, since my kids hockey fees helped pay the settlement and the accused individuals faced no consequences it doesn‘t leave one feeling like there was justice.

Also true that there Hockey Canada was motivated to sweep this under the rug but my guess is they don’t just pay out without a pretty good analysis of what they know at the time and how this is going to play out for them. The lawyers on the site can also opine on the burden of proof in civil vs criminal cases.

 

[daver]

I would think one of the reasons is the victim themselves. A criminal case means a very public trial, the victim will have to go on the stand and relate very personal details without any anonymity. Unfortunately in sexual assault cases the victim ends up as much on trial as the accused(read some of the posts in this site for evidence of that), and it’s a brutal process for them and if not willing to go through that basically the criminal case is done. The civil route can at least have some anonymity for the victim, but yes does not bring personal accountability into play. In this case, since my kids hockey fees helped pay the settlement and the accused individuals faced no consequences it doesn‘t leave one feeling like there was justice.

Also true that there Hockey Canada was motivated to sweep this under the rug but my guess is they don’t just pay out without a pretty good analysis of what they know at the time and how this is going to play out for them. The lawyers on the site can also opine on the burden of proof in civil vs criminal cases.

This presumes the allegations were true; which is the point I am making. A settlement could be done to avoid the public scrutiny, assumptions of guilt, or if not true, the likely story of most of the story being accurate, save for the criminal element, which would be bad PR.

 

[jellybeans]

It happened at a Hockey Canada event.


So I guess you won't be watching, but would you have otherwise?

2022 IIHF Women's World Championship - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Not going to be easy not watching it its my favorite hockey to watch and yes 100% i would of watched it.

 

[DueDiligence]

Should FIFA suspend Canada?

You mean one of the most corrupt organizations in the world.

 

[Pink Mist]

Question: Why aren't allegations made in a civil lawsuit that, if true, would result in criminal charges, automatically trigger a criminal investigation? I.e. the civil lawsuit cannot proceed until an investigation has been carried out?

Seems to me that an allegation of sexual assault carries a lot of weight as we have seen by Hockey Canada and the CHL's response and the subsequent actions taken by other institutions based primarily on public reaction and perception. Seems to me that it isn't necessarily indicative that the allegations are true despite a settlement being reached.

This isn't to say that HC and the CHL were not motivated to sweep the allegations this under the rug rather than face public scrutiny but it does open the door to "justice", that a criminal action did or did not happen, being compromised.

A criminal investigation has been reopened

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Yes, and there is absolutely nothing labour law in Canada can do if HC was to tell certain players it cannot play for its teams. They could give any reason they wanted, and so long as it was not a prohibited grounds under the Charter or CHRA, it doesn’t matter.



I would happily bet money on this.



Because you keep talking out your ass about it.

Curious, do you honestly think if any one of these players is completely exonerated but was banned from participating in HC events and employment for not participating in this commission (for whatever reason) won't launch a civil suit?

 

[4thline]

- Employment law is almost as favourable to the individual as criminal law. You should follow it like I do as a business owner. I'd put money down any of these guys would win a huge settlement if they were denied participation in HC sanctioned employment or events. Assuming they're innocent of course.

Their criminal guilt or innocence has no impact on their employment rights/non-rights. In order for them to win that lawsuit a judge would have rule against HC and set a precedent that organizations
-cannot make employment decisions to protect themselves from reputational harm
-cannot make employment decisions to protect vulnerable populations that they have in their care
-cannot make employment decisions based on enforcement of reason codes of conduct and internal policies
-cannot act in the public interest to enact organizational improvement surrounding sexual conduct

And in the off chance you could find a judge willing to do all that, the likely remedy would be injunction/forced reinstatement of eligibility, not a "huge settlement"

Employment law is nothing like criminal law. If getting a criminal conviction were as easy as building a case for dismissal with cause our justice system would look very different. If you've got your house in order, act ethically, and aren't unionized the only really onerous aspect in favour of the individual is common law severance entitlements, but you can mitigate that with a well written employment agreement. Of course- this pertains to Ontario. Quebec law..... when you have a minute check out Section 124 ALS.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Their criminal guilt or innocence has no impact on their employment rights/non-rights. In order for them to win that lawsuit a judge would have rule against HC and set a precedent that organizations
-cannot make employment decisions to protect themselves from reputational harm
-cannot make employment decisions to protect vulnerable populations that they have in their care
-cannot make employment decisions based on enforcement of reason codes of conduct and internal policies
-cannot act in the public interest to enact organizational improvement surrounding sexual conduct

And in the off chance you could find a judge willing to do all that, the likely remedy would be injunction/forced reinstatement of eligibility, not a "huge settlement"

Employment law is nothing like criminal law. If getting a criminal conviction were as easy as building a case for dismissal with cause our justice system would look very different. If you've got your house in order, act ethically, and aren't unionized the only really onerous aspect in favour of the individual is common law severance entitlements, but you can mitigate that with a well written employment agreement. Of course- this pertains to Ontario. Quebec law..... when you have a minute check out Section 124 ALS.

I disagree. I believe your argument falls apart when you're dealing with an organization that has a monopoly and receives government funding. You're basically saying someone can't work *anywhere* in Canada in their chosen field with no legal justification.

 

[wetcoast]

I disagree with that wholeheartedly. Many normal healthy adults watch porn and they don’t think about committing any sexual assaults.

It is a serious problem for some young teen males (and female perceptions with the internet) though just like alcohol isn't a serious problem for many but when it is the consequences are and can be very drastic and life altering for those around the addict.

 

[wetcoast]

It happened at a Hockey Canada event.


So I guess you won't be watching, but would you have otherwise?

2022 IIHF Women's World Championship - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is the problem with hysteria, it's easy to whip it up but hard to stop and rationalize decisions and comments.

For all of those wanting to clean house in HC, who do they want to replace the current leadership with then?

Maybe if we all focused on building a better future, instead of calling for everyone's head we might get somewhere positive.

 

[Jerzey Devil]

Pranking is one thing, hazing is another. Thing I’ve noticed about hazing in my personal life is the people who get hazed never really become part of the group that did the hazing. The hazing group is a closed group.