Canada's 2003 world hockey junior team also accused of group sexual assault

[pown]

Gross.

What names do we have?

 

[YippieKaey]

I think it's kind of relevant for many reasons. Just saw something on CBC a few minutes ago with Carcillo talking about it and other abuse in hockey. He said at 17 he hadn't been exposed to group sex but after going away for hockey it seemed to be very common (I believe he was saying consensual too).

If we don't hear about this, some posters here immediately assume any group/gang sex has to be a rape.

1) Tootoo/Carcillo and others shedding light on it can be helpful to explain what the culture is actually like...it may also explain the 2018 incident it and lend support that those situations are "common" and often consensual

2) there's a spectrum for these incidents or assaults too:
A) could be consensual like Carcillo/Tootoo are saying
B) it could be something like what 2018 may be, ie something that was consensual and became something else. Ie not meeting the newer definitions on consent (not being into it, not engaging, being silent, etc) vs older expectations of firmly saying no/stop/etc
C) or it could be something like they're saying for 2003 ... Which if they get that video and she was unconscious, these guys should be going to jail

Tootoo called it 'a lamb roast'. That doesn't imply consent unless you think the lamb is consenting to being eaten.

 

[pown]

I guess a few boys need to be peepee slapped, or chopped

 

[Warden of the North]

I am sure they will be quick to tweet a trade as quickly as they can.

Yes. Proved that pretty quick

 

[saintunspecified]

Sounds like young Canadian hockey players need Jesus.

(if you’ve ever been around young hockey players or played yourself, you already knew this)

Odd that they're nearly all Christians.

 

[saintunspecified]

The program was complicit.

Yes. And I don't believe 18/19 yos cycling through programs can maintain a culture of acting like this over time without active reinforcement/encouragement from older leaders (coaches, trainers, etc.) It's probably much worse than complicity.

 

[hullsy47]

If your daughter was videotaped getting f**ked by 6 men on a pool table and not responding to it at all. What would you feel/do?

Anxious to hear coliacavo defend his teammates on first ip Monday

 

[KaseMeOutside]

At first I thought it meant 2003 born players, but no it says the 2003 WC. It seems incredibly opportunistic, given the timing of the other investigation and 19 years later.

What else is HC going to say after being under a microscope now?

You say opportunistic. I say under scrutiny.

 

[Warden of the North]

Look at the language used. "Non-responsive". Wtf does that mean? Doesn't say unconscious or resisting or anything. That in and of itself means nothing. And a couple of teenage hockey players might not be the best judges of what they see on a tape when it comes to consent. Without seeing the video we know f*** all. Could it have happened, sure but right now you know absolutely nothing of value.

People combing through rosters "that guy might be a rapists" "hmm maybe that guy" at this stage is a f***ign joke.

The medical meaning of non-responsive

not reacting in any way when spoken to, shaken, etc. because of being unconscious or very ill:
A cardiac arrest is an unexpected collapse in an individual who is non-responsive.
The 1-month-old elephant calf became non-responsive, and staff members were unable to revive him.

non-responsive

1. not working or reacting to changes, instructions, etc.: 2. not answering a…

dictionary.cambridge.org

I think it's pretty clear this is what they are referring too

 

[catnip]

Imagine being in charge of media relations at Hockey Canada and being asked about an alleged gang rape by the WJH team.

"Which one? You're going to need to be more specific."

 

[2014nyr]

I haven’t seen anyone on here suggesting this is isolated to Hockey.

Is it rampant, I don’t know but two incidents with Team Canada WJ certainly is more than problematic.

ive noticed it broadly applied, just the statement hockey has a culture problem - to me it throws the entire sport under the bus for having the same problems that exist everywhere. by all means call out and punish this stuff, i just dont like taking aim at the sport as a whole. and im not saying its people here, but social media and the media are, and that phrase was used here which was what i originally responded to/dont agree with

 

[Melrose Munch]

ive noticed it broadly applied, just the statement hockey has a culture problem - to me it throws the entire sport under the bus for having the same problems that exist everywhere. by all means call out and punish this stuff, i just dont like taking aim at the sport as a whole. and im not saying its people here, but social media and the media are, and that phrase was used here which was what i originally responded to/dont agree with

It's probably because this is the 7th or 8th incident in hockey.

We had no problem slamming the NFL over domestic violence years ago.

 

[CJV123]

Funny enough, a couple years back, hockey was considered the game with less scandal of the top 4 league in North America. Little did we know...

If by "couple" you mean 50, then sure.

 

[2014nyr]

Yes/no.

Is there a broad cultural problem where young men in a lot of situations need to be better prepared/educated to be empathetic to others in vulnerable situations? Yes.

Is this problem exacerbated when those young men have been away from home/parents for 2-3 years, have had their ego's boosted, are having their first experiences with alcohol, and have young women seemingly 'chasing' after them? Yes.

And note that nothing in the previous paragraph mentioned hockey. The same increased risk of young men not having proper guidance and oversight probably occurs in similar situations with any sport/youth activity whereby there is less supervision, +alcohol, +believe that you are above things, +++

The thing is, it doesn't matter if the issue exists outside of hockey. The remedy is better education and awareness of the harm that can be created. And if hockey...or any sport...is part of creating an environment where there is increased risk of SA, (away from home, ego/s, alcohol, availability) then yes, hockey has a culture problem, because they own the exacerbation part. You can't just say "well, we didn't start the fire so why are you mad that we poured gas on it"


It's a pretty clear line of though for me.

Would these exact same 18-19 year olds have taken part in what happened if not for hockey?
(not part of the WJ team, had not been away from home, had not had the availability that a gold medalist has, etc. etc.)

Maybe some would, but some wouldn't. And that's the hockey culture problem, the difference between someone that wouldn't without the part that hockey played.

right i agree, and im all for addressing it/punishing acts/taking preventative measures going fwd. but like you said does the situation happen without their status in hockey? unikely. but would teachers abuse students if they werent in schools? would celebrities/politicians have been on epstein island without their status? does the celebrity abuse of women in hollywood happen if they werent celebrities? does football have a culture problem when you see incidents there? can nsme every sport etc

i agree with your general point, what i contest is "hockey has a culture problem" - hockey has the same problems that exist everywhere. again, i agree with why it might happen in hockey, addressing and punishing, educating etc, but its not hockey. it exists in hockey, address it within hockey, but i dont agree with singling out the sport as if its singular in these issues. not saying anyone in particular, but that phrase and its use within a narrative in media are too broad and paint the entire sport as if all in it are guilty on some level as participants in a toxic culture.

 

[Zippity]

'We haven’t learned a damn thing': Sexual violence is embedded in junior hockey culture

Content warning: This story contains details about alleged sexual assault. The content may be difficult to read and emotionally upsetting. Multiple officials from Hockey Canada will be in Ottawa on Monday to testify in a Canadian parliamentary hearing in front of the Standing Committee on...

theathletic.com

 

[Coaches Coroner]

Odd that they're nearly all Christians.

Ya, I was going to say, these guys where so many crosses that I don't think Jesus being absent is the problem...perhaps his presence (more so churches) is part of the problem, with their history of sexual misconduct and cover up.

 

[Jeune Poulet]

'We haven’t learned a damn thing': Sexual violence is embedded in junior hockey culture

Content warning: This story contains details about alleged sexual assault. The content may be difficult to read and emotionally upsetting. Multiple officials from Hockey Canada will be in Ottawa on Monday to testify in a Canadian parliamentary hearing in front of the Standing Committee on...

theathletic.com

Thank you, this article this article is a gut-wrenching read at times but is required reading. That quote really spoke to me and is exactly the reason why I never give up interacting with victim blamers and people denying these problems exist and why I connect so much with the amazing people who speak up against this culture.

Glenn Canning has a simple question he asks whenever he hears a story involving gang rape.

“It’s always heartbreaking when you read about something that involves a lot of young men and there wasn’t one of them that recognized something was wrong. Where was that guy?” asks Canning.

It’s a question Canning started asking after his 17-year-old daughter, Rehtaeh Parsons, died following a suicide attempt in 2013. Parsons’ death came 17 months after her family said she was raped by four high school boys at a house party in Nova Scotia. The boys took photos as the assault was happening and then circulated them among their peers, leading to months of Parsons being cyberbullied. Though it is not a hockey story, it is perhaps the most infamous gang rape case in Canada. The crown prosecutor initially declined to prosecute the case, but police reopened the case in 2013 and convicted two of her assailants on child pornography charges for disseminating photos of Parsons. Neither served jail time. An independent review of the police and prosecution response to the case found errors were made by both law enforcement and the provincial prosecution service.

Canning speaks at high schools across Canada, sharing Rehtaeh’s story as a cautionary tale about consent, sexual assault and social media.

“I always think if you can just change one guy in every group of guys you can go a long way,” said Canning. “Just to have someone say, “This is wrong. And this person needs my protection. And that’s my role.”

 

[Leafsfan74]

Yes. And I don't believe 18/19 yos cycling through programs can maintain a culture of acting like this over time without active reinforcement/encouragement from older leaders (coaches, trainers, etc.) It's probably much worse than complicity.

This is the same with policing in Canada. How many police have parents who were police? How many 40 year career police officers become Chiefs of Police? Who expects culture change with such realities?

I recall just three or four years ago they named a new chief of a major police force in Ontario who was apparently going to help their force evolve to the present day. It was an odd choice, considering this guy first joined the police force in the 1960s. Yeah, that's a guy you look to for culture change. Ditto for hockey.

The game has had (now former) TV personalities who had been on TV for decades, many of my generation raised on his influence. I'm old enough to hear such endearing terms against French and European player who wore visors or openly disputing former NHL fighters who had concerns about their health etc.

How does a game, meh, a nation evolve if it remains dedicated to promoting those with particular attitudes?

 

[Transplanted Caper]

This is the same with policing in Canada. How many police have parents who were police? How many 40 year career police officers become Chiefs of Police? Who expects culture change with such realities?

I recall just three or four years ago they named a new chief of a major police force in Ontario who was apparently going to help their force evolve to the present day. It was an odd choice, considering this guy first joined the police force in the 1960s. Yeah, that's a guy you look to for culture change. Ditto for hockey.

The game has had (now former) TV personalities who had been on TV for decades, many of my generation raised on his influence. I'm old enough to hear such endearing terms against French and European player who wore visors or openly disputing former NHL fighters who had concerns about their health etc.

How does a game, meh, a nation evolve if it remains dedicated to promoting those with particular attitudes?

It does feel this is a bigger issue in hockey than it is elsewhere. Long-time talking heads are a thing in all sports broadcasts, but no sport leans into nostalgia like hockey. I get why they do it, and don't expect it to stop, but even something like Hockey Day in Canada's vibe is "gather round fellow boomers, and tell your kids some stories about the good ol'days". The Good Deeds Cup, whose work can and should be applauded is also just as much about marketing the kids doing good than it is about the good. I'm not saying we should throw the baby out with the bathwater and not do these things but there needs to be caution about using these things to build an unrealistic myth of the good ol'Canadian boy out of them. I mean this is a sport where what players wear to the rink was *actually* a thing. People honestly cared and thought it sent a signal if they weren't in a suit!

There's a subtext to it all about conformity, what makes a "good guy", that can be seen throughout how the game is covered. I do think it's slowly getting better. More representation on TV helps, but there still is that default towards old-school that's used as a crutch by a lot of people still front and centre in the game.

 

[DougKnowsBest]

Personally. I don’t like sitting on a locker room bench while the guy next to me is standing up and changing is jock strap. There his definitely some shared psychology going on that get this many guys involved in a lamb roast. I’m sure there are tones of times team Canada players have successfully executed a 2 on 1 that stayed private and no one felt bad about the next day.

The psychology that makes young men gang rape is what I’m interested in. In general I don’t these kids are bad people. But, and I can’t believe I’m saying this, there’s clearly something in that hockey culture that is making this seem normal to their brains.

 

[lakeshirts37]

Keep burying your head in the sand and plugging your ears.



Then why don't we hear anything about basketball/ Murican football/ golf having culture problems?

You can’t be serious with this??? NBA and NFL don’t have problems? That’s absurd. The PGA policy is to not release anything about their tour members as it pertains to discipline. It’s very old boys club. DJ was (is?) in love with blow. He was disciplined by PGA but nothing official is ever released.

 

[Statto]

Why would anyone have faith in someone they don't know.
I love hockey.
But hockey players can be some of the most petulant,entitled people you've ever met.
Young males + alcohol + top-of-the-hockey-world ego = get teenage girls the f*** out of here.
When I was a kid, OHL hockey players would show up at a fun party and turn it into a f***ing shitshow.

It wasn’t much better in the U.K, nor were some of the Imports that came over from North America. I was involved closely enough to swear that if my daughter ever showed any interest in hockey I’d cut my ties with the pro team I was involved with. I didn’t know enough to report anything, but did know enough not take any chances. I hasten to add it was definitely a minority but it not as small a minority as you’d hope. The misogynistic locker room talk I’d hear meant that on a personal level I wanted nothing to do with any of the players. In 20+ years I made one friend on the team, that I knew was a top family bloke...

 

[Uncle Rotter]

You can’t be serious with this??? NBA and NFL don’t have problems? That’s absurd. The PGA policy is to not release anything about their tour members as it pertains to discipline. It’s very old boys club. DJ was (is?) in love with blow. He was disciplined by PGA but nothing official is ever released.

They're not, they're a troll.

 

[saintunspecified]

Ya, I was going to say, these guys where so many crosses that I don't think Jesus being absent is the problem...perhaps his presence (more so churches) is part of the problem, with their history of sexual misconduct and cover up.

the closed-off male-dominated nature of the leadership of the vast majority of christian groups is a major factor, and that is the background for a lot of the cultural problem both within, and outside hockey. (i'm not a christian, but the closed-off male-dominated groups within my religion share the same problems.)

 

[Nut Upstrom]

Nothing to do with hockey culture, you honestly must be a absolute dumbass to think a sexual assault is anyway part of ”hockey culture” or these awful things happen because of it.

There are literally millions of hockey players and they’re all individuals, and you can choose million individuals from ANY group and you’re bound to have some bad people in there, it’s just how it is.

People saying there is a problem with hockey culture are not casting aspersions on the millions of people who play hockey without sexually assaulting people. They are primarily pointing out two very real problems within hockey culture:
1. Many hockey players, from a young age, seem to feel that they are entitled to certain things and are above having to face real world consequences for their actions.
2. Powerful bodies, entities, organizations have made it the status quo to shield these athletes because they are highly skilled at hockey - hence verifying why these youths feel entitled as they do (see point one).

There is a cultural problem within the Catholic church. The church has, for decades, covered up sexual abuses and moved the offending individuals to unknowing communities where they can abuse again. Does my saying this imply that I am out to get the thousands of good and selfless priests out there, or am I simply saying that something within the organization is rotten and needs to be fixed?

Open your eyes and try using a little common sense.